Where do you think the Lost Dutchman mine is?

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"his participation in the Weaver/Peeple's Party,"

Not sure I trust that documentation.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Oroblanco]

I would agree with Joe on the supposed link of Waltz to the Weaver/Peeples party, as I have seen an older version that did mention a Dutchman was part of their party, but he was killed in attempting to recover a mule (or horse, memory is not perfect) stolen by the Apaches. Hence it could not be Waltz.

Also, I think that Herman Petrasch had simply confused Jacob Waltz with Jacob Weiser. If you say Walzer and then Weiser out loud, it is easy to see how Herman might have heard of Weiser being connected with the mine, and his first name being also Jacob, confused the two names into one.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Old white horse"!

http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/hav4/body.1_div.4.html

Take care,

Joe

 

[cw0909]

the area i posted in its a secret, mostly because Del believed and i believed Del
and theres gold in them thar hills

http://ttp://mapper.acme.com/?ll=33...r0=33.51250,-111.50322,N 33.51250 W 111.50321

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Horse!

Take care,

Joe

Pepper!

 

[Hal Croves]

Mike,

"his participation in the Weaver/Peeple's Party,"

Not sure I trust that documentation.

Take care,

Joe

Cactusjumper,
Here we find some common ground.
Hey, btw, any insight into why Glovers book is delayed? Do you know the specifics?

 

[markmar]

gollum

You wrote : " Hermann Petrasch thought the LDM was on or about Tortilla Mt. "
We have read the same article ? Because I have read how the " placer " mine was/is about one mile from Weavers Needle .

And about the Waltz surname to have been Walzer before came to America , could be very truth . Maybe Jacob told to R. Petrasch how called him before changed his name .
I know how somebody could change the name from myself . I have changed my surname and my name before 30 years , when I changed country . Marius was my baptized name for about 23 years . Now is the same but Hellenized suffix . In my surname was changed some letters , a " ch " to " k " and a " d " to " nt " . So I have not future with my previous name and have not past with my new , after 1985 .

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

fringe

I will bite -
I am more than half convinced that the mine is located on the fringe of the Superstition Wilderness Area boundaries. Along much of the southern, eastern and northern boundaries, even the geologists who did the studies to create the Wilderness Area found the lands to be mineralized, some places highly mineralized, and this is why some areas were excluded from the Wilderness Area. Plus we know that a number of silver mines were found to the East and several good to excellent gold mines were found just NW of the Wilderness Area in Goldfield. It is not nearly so exciting to go hunting for the lost mine, so near to the roads and highways instead of hiking for miles into the mountain, but my money is, that is where the mine will one day be found - outside the boundaries, and not even one mile from a road.

Please do continue amigos,
Oroblanco

I'll go you one better on that fringe idea. First off I still don't think there is any solid evidence that some fantastic super rich mine formerly worked by Waltz exists awaiting rediscovery.

Understanding the tectonic origin of gold concentrations and the caldera geology of the area tells us much.

Mineral concentrations in that area formed over many million of years many millions of years before then. The far younger age of the calderas were merely magma (There are no known gold rich magmas) that came up and disturbed and even removed parts of the crust that may have been subjected to mineral concentrating tectonics. How much material was sucked back down into the magma chamber? Those very caldera magmas may have been part of the process over the millions of years before their eruptions, but not a gold source themselves.

The areas outside of the young caldera boundaries - fringe - and beyond is where mineral concentrations would remain to be discovered and mined. So take that caldera location information and draw a three lobed outline and look outside it. There is not likely to be much mineral concentration inside it, except for possible fragments of older rock that both survived the chaos and happened to be mineralized.

But finding a surviving mineral deposit in that situation would be like finding a chunk of quarts ore vein in glacial materials in the Midwest that was sourced from north of there all the way to James Bay. There would be no geologic associate with progressively metamorphosed rocks or with anything else, just random dumb luck to stumble across it, assuming it happened to be exposed.

 

[Oroblanco]

ConceptualizedNetherlandr wrote

I'll go you one better on that fringe idea. First off I still don't think there is any solid evidence that some fantastic super rich mine formerly worked by Waltz exists awaiting rediscovery.

That is too bad for you, sounds like you have not researched the matter fully. One might wonder why you would bother to spend time on a treasure forum, under the Treasure Legends section, talking about a lost mine you don't think there is any solid evidence of.


ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

Understanding the tectonic origin of gold concentrations and the caldera geology of the area tells us much.

Mineral concentrations in that area formed over many million of years many millions of years before then. The far younger age of the calderas were merely magma (There are no known gold rich magmas) that came up and disturbed and even removed parts of the crust that may have been subjected to mineral concentrating tectonics. How much material was sucked back down into the magma chamber? Those very caldera magmas may have been part of the process over the millions of years before their eruptions, but not a gold source themselves.

The areas outside of the young caldera boundaries - fringe - and beyond is where mineral concentrations would remain to be discovered and mined. So take that caldera location information and draw a three lobed outline and look outside it. There is not likely to be much mineral concentration inside it, except for possible fragments of older rock that both survived the chaos and happened to be mineralized.

But finding a surviving mineral deposit in that situation would be like finding a chunk of quarts ore vein in glacial materials in the Midwest that was sourced from north of there all the way to James Bay. There would be no geologic associate with progressively metamorphosed rocks or with anything else, just random dumb luck to stumble across it, assuming it happened to be exposed.

You are correct that understanding the geology would be a help, and then proceeded into error, for quartz gold deposits normally form in the voids in the country rock - and volcanic rock, after being deposited liquid and hot, then cools and contracts, forming cracks and voids, into which the aqueous solution that creates quartz and gold veins then flow and crystallize. The Superstition mountains are literally shot through with such voids, and have plenty of evidence of hydrothermal activity - the same activity that is what creates quartz gold veins. Also, there is gold in the Superstitions in a number of places, indicating that gold has definitely been deposited there. This raises your odds considerably. There is no relation to any glacial actions in the Superstitions. There is little chance of any gold in the volcanic rock itself, but in the quartz intrusions within the volcanic types, your chances are excellent.

EDIT
I neglected to point out that the tectonic activity creates the largest cracks and voids in the country rock, and these along with the minor cracks and voids from the rock cooling are where the aqueous solutions then fill with quartz, chalcedony and other hydrothermal minerals including gold. Conceptualized was correct on that point, so my apologies for the error/omission.

 

[azdave35]

you guys are over engineering this dutchman stuff.....he didnt have any degrees or formal training...just boots on the ground....if you would quit overthinking and start hiking you might find something also

 

[Tnmountains]

Not going to have a tug of war and personal attacks on each other will not be tolerated. Keep it on topic please.
Thanks!

 

[Hal Croves]

you guys are over engineering this dutchman stuff.....he didnt have any degrees or formal training...just boots on the ground....if you would quit overthinking and start hiking you might find something also

That approach has worn out many boots.
Have you ever personally found "something" in the SWA?

 

[azdave35]

That approach has worn out many boots.
Have you ever personally found "something" in the SWA?

more than any armchair hunter ever will

 

[Oroblanco]

you guys are over engineering this dutchman stuff.....he didnt have any degrees or formal training...just boots on the ground....if you would quit overthinking and start hiking you might find something also

You are 100% correct. The only reason for going in depth to try to explain things is that a lot of people do not understand the geology involved. I was not trying to "over engineer" the thing, just explaining it. When I hunt for the LDM I do study the geology and use every tool in the chest, but Waltz had no mining degrees just many years of successful prospecting experience. I agree that experience in the field, boots on the ground, trumps any scientific paper or theory. If you can arrange to make a trip to the Superstitions you will not regret it even if you don't find the Lost Dutchman's mine.

To all: I neglected to add that part which Conceptualized raised, the tectonic activity really creates the largest cracks and voids, uplifts and sinks etc, but the whole point was hopefully clear enough. I do make mistakes once in a while. Waltz's gold mine will be a quartz deposit, and these formed in the voids in the country rock which is mostly volcanic except for one small area in the SWA. As Conceptualized stated, the edges of the calderas are the most promising areas to find those voids and cracks which might have chalcedony, quartz and maybe gold. But don't rule out the seemingly 'barren' areas either, for there are signs of hydrothermal activity in some very unlikely looking places even right in the calderas where they should not be, as many Dutch hunters can tell you from finding them. One such area is on the south flank of Superstition mountain, in the area of the Palmer mine which produced some gold. (That is NOT in the middle of one of the three main calderas, it is on the edge but the geology looks most unpromising until you notice the chalcedony and quartz, as well as black sands.)

I see that others have already addressed the question about why to use the portable drywasher, for concentrating samples and save water. That method of following up the gold until you lose it, to find the vein has worked in many gold districts over centuries. I think that is how the LDM could be found today, without any clues of any kind.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

That is too bad for you, sounds like you have not researched the matter fully.

thanks for your opinion

One might wonder why you would bother to spend time on a treasure forum, under the Treasure Legends section, talking about a lost mine you don't think there is any solid evidence of.

and some might stick to the topic rather than make off color comments about other posters.

You are correct that understanding the geology would be a help, and then proceeded into error,

wrong. I made no error but thanks for posting your opinion about me

for quartz gold deposits normally form in the voids in the country rock - and volcanic rock, after being deposited liquid and hot, then cools and contracts, forming cracks and voids, into which the aqueous solution that creates quartz and gold veins then flow and crystallize.

It seems there is some confusion about crystallization from molten rock (magma/lava) versus precipitation from a high pressure high temperature probably 'critical' solution which is replenished/recycled many many times over millions of years. This is why secondary replacement is called a deposit. It occurs in a metamorphic/tectonic event and IS NOT crystallization of magma or lava. There is no solution known to man of any kind that is rich enough in silicon or minerals to just cool into a mineralized secondary vein. There are no known gold rich magmas/lavas known in all known geologic history. When a magma cools quickly we end up with fine grained rock. When it cools slowly the grains grow larger and greater mineral separations can occur. None of that in any way causes gold to concentrate, occur or veins of mineralization to 'intrude'.

The Superstition mountains are literally shot through with such voids, and have plenty of evidence of hydrothermal activity - the same activity that is what creates quartz gold veins. Also, there is gold in the Superstitions in a number of places, indicating that gold has definitely been deposited there. This raises your odds considerably. There is no relation to any glacial actions in the Superstitions.

Why would you say that? Who ever made any claim about glacial actions in the Superstitions to which you respond?

There is little chance of any gold in the volcanic rock itself, but in the quartz intrusions within the volcanic types, your chances are excellent.

Do you have any solid evidence of any gold rich quartz veins in the 'younger than caldera' rocks in the supes?

EDIT
I neglected to point out that the tectonic activity creates the largest cracks and voids in the country rock, and these along with the minor cracks and voids from the rock cooling are where the aqueous solutions then fill with quartz, chalcedony and other hydrothermal minerals including gold. Conceptualized was correct on that point, so my apologies for the error/omission.

Hydrothermal anything is a metamorphic process caused by tectonics. Without tectonics there would be only igneous and sedimentary rocks, (and even then no more new crustal rock would be cycled out to the surface and the planet would eventually weather flatter and flatter) and no gold laden veins. I am not aware of any geologic evidence of gold bearing veins being or having been formed in any post caldera rock, are you?

 

[Oroblanco]

thanks for your opinion and some might stick to the topic rather than make off color comments about other posters. wrong. I made no error but thanks for posting your opinion about me It seems there is some confusion about crystallization from molten rock (magma/lava) versus precipitation from a high pressure high temperature probably 'critical' solution which is replenished/recycled many many times over millions of years. This is why secondary replacement is called a deposit. It occurs in a metamorphic/tectonic event and IS NOT crystallization of magma or lava. There is no solution known to man of any kind that is rich enough in silicon or minerals to just cool into a mineralized secondary vein. There are no known gold rich magmas/lavas known in all known geologic history. When a magma cools quickly we end up with fine grained rock. When it cools slowly the grains grow larger and greater mineral separations can occur. None of that in any way causes gold to concentrate, occur or veins of mineralization to 'intrude'.



Why would you say that? Who ever made any claim about glacial actions in the Superstitions to which you respond? Do you have any solid evidence of any gold rich quartz veins in the 'younger than caldera' rocks in the supes?

Hydrothermal anything is a metamorphic process caused by tectonics. Without tectonics there would be only igneous and sedimentary rocks, (and even then no more new crustal rock would be cycled out to the surface and the planet would eventually weather flatter and flatter) and no gold laden veins. I am not aware of any geologic evidence of gold bearing veins being or having been formed in any post caldera rock, are you?

What is with all the combative language? Do you have a problem? Would you like to meet in person and sort it out? I am not here to serve your wishes or provide you with answers to your every utterance. Do you know how to be polite?

 

[sgtfda]

A example would be what was found at the Heat dig at the Silver Chief. Or the old shaft uncovered at the Silver King.

 

[azdave35]

A example would be what was found at the Heat dig at the Silver Chief. Or the old shaft uncovered at the Silver King.

exactly

 

[Hal Croves]

A example would be what was found at the Heat dig at the Silver Chief. Or the old shaft uncovered at the Silver King.

No mention of Mexicans and it's not in the SWA - Silver King
I am in the dark about the Heat dig but if you believe it was Mexican, I will contact the DOI and nose around some.

A former surface and underground Ag-Pb-Au-Cu-Zn mine located in sec. 24, T1S, R12E, in Comstock Wash, about 1 mile W of Kings Crown Peak, about 3 miles north of Superior. Discovered in the fall of 1874 and initially worked until Mar 24, 1875. Owned by Messrs. Long, Mason, Reagan & Copeland. During 1976-96 it was operated by the Silver King Mining Co. In 1916 the property was acquired by Silver King of Arizona Mining Co. Subsequently the property was acquired by Bat Gays who carried on small-scale operations. Previous operators include T. Gayo; Tritt Smelting and Refining; Silver King Syn.; Apache Silver; Silver King Arizona Mining; Dean Brothers; Silver King of Arizona Mining; and the Silver King Mining Co. During 1945-46 some of the area was prospected by diamond drilling. First produced 1877 and closed 1955. Owned by Dick Lobb and Grace Middleton (1982). Operated by Mr. John Reynolds (1987).

 

[Hal Croves]

more than any armchair hunter ever will

Let's try this again since we are both well rested now.
Have you ever found physical proof of Mexican mining in the SWA prior to 1847/8?
A simple yes or no would work.

But if you are felling generous, perhaps you can expand on your discovery for the OTHER TNet members.
Establishing a Mexican presence in the SWA seems to me the very foundation of the argument for any lost mine.

One example that I offer is the El GATO inscriptions. The authentic ones anyway.