Where do you think the Lost Dutchman mine is?

[markmar]

Oroblanco

Bicknell wrote in his article from 1895
“It lies within an imaginary circle whose diameter is not more than five miles and whose center is marked by the Weaver’s Needle "

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.../ruth/Adolph Ruth's Directions to the LDM.pdf

If the clue would says " five miles radius from Weaver's Needle " , this is the most of the Superstitions territory . Like to search a needle in the barn .

 

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[markmar]

Bicknell was searching the Rodgers Canyon area. Good way to keep everyone away from your search area. Write a story that it's elsewhere.

Sarge

Is more easy and safe to search one or two miles from the road than five miles .

 

[Oroblanco]

Bicknell was searching the Rodgers Canyon area. Good way to keep everyone away from your search area. Write a story that it's elsewhere.

We might also note that Bicknell wrote of finding clear evidence of primitive SILVER smelting in his search area, rather than gold. The Rogers Canyon mines are historically known for producing silver.

 

[sgtfda]

Hike to the two room house in the cave at the end of Rodgers trail. Inside the house hidden behind a roof log and see his name engraved there. You want to figure what is true look at people's actions more so than their words.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hike to the two room house in the cave at the end of Rodgers trail. Inside the house hidden behind a roof log and see his name engraved there. You want to figure what is true look at people's actions more so than their words.

Yep - Bicknell was following the directions to the lost Peralta/Ludy Silver mine complete with funnel shaped pit and tunnel. I have been saying actions speak louder than words repeatedly, hence with Holmes, Julia, Reiney et al searching for the lost mine.

 

[azdave35]

I thought it would be fun for people to talk about, within reason, where they think the LDM might be. This is a thread to discuss what the mine means to you. What clues are important? What general area of the range do you think it is in? I would like to keep debates over the validity of clues out of this thread.

So where do you think it might be?

randy...if we really knew where the mine was we'd be working it...not posting coords on a public forum...lol

 

[Gold Maven]

Sorry I strayed from the specific topic.

I thought my opinion that it might be nowhere, actually fit your guide lines.

As far as Waltz working at the Vulture, everything that I can find for and against it, are nothing more than statements.

I saw it on a documentary 20 years ago or so, and of course it could have been wrong.

I'm not trying to crush anyone's dreams, just throwing in my 2 cents.

 

[markmar]

I believe some of the LDM clues are accurate and help to locate the region of the mine . These are :

- " If you pass three Red Hills you have gone too far " ( this clue fits with the other clue which says how is in a 2,5 miles radius from Weaver's Needle ) .

- " You can see the Military/Cavarly trail from my mine , but can't see the mine from the trail " ( I believe very important clue in that 2,5 miles radius ) .

- " You have to climb a steep ravine above the mine to see the Weaver's Needle to the south ( I believe south not literally ) .

- " From above the mine you can see the Four Peaks in line like one peak " .

- " My mine is in a N to S tributary canyon "

After " lock " the region with these clues , you can use the other known clues which help to locate the mine .

Now , let see the Waltz map , which , I believe has four maps on it ( the map 3 should be turned 90* to the left to be in the same direction with the map 2 , south on top )) .



And now let see how fits the map 2 ( the cliff part which i believe shows the golden ledge below the mine ) with an aerial photo



Of course all this post is only my theory and everybody is free to believe in his/her theory .

 

[djui5]

randy...if we really knew where the mine was we'd be working it...not posting coords on a public forum...lol

Lol! See, this is becoming a good thread. A place to discuss general areas of the mountains. Not specific, but general.

I believe there was many mines back there that the Spanish/Mexicans worked. Which one was Waltzs? I have no idea. I do feel the general area is the heart of the Supers. I believe that based on what he told Julia and Rhiney, and where they went looking.

 

[Oroblanco]

What about West Boulder canyon? Remember the very first attempt done by Julia and Reiney to enter the mountains was from the first canyon (from the west on the south side) and I now think that was Hog canyon but could have the name wrong, however her second attempt was from the North side. Joe Ribaudo and a few others found some interesting monuments in West Boulder and even a mine of some kind. I have never even hiked through West Boulder so can't say if there is gold in it or even black sands. Was West Boulder the place that Julia and Reiney were trying to get into? Anyone?
Oroblanco

 

[markmar]

Oroblanco

I believe Cactusjumper foud a mine in Little Boulder Canyon . Is where he believes how lies the heart of the stone maps .
Now , from what I have read , Julia's first attemt started from Hog Canyon and ended somewhere aroud Bull Pass .
I believe the first western real passable gorge from the south side of the Superstitions is the Peralta trail which continue in the East Boulder Canyon . Julia in her map shows this entrance .
I believe Julia , maybe of excessive zeal , wrote on her map an important clue , which , the place where is written in the map , is obvious how is not compatible with the real distance in the mountains . So , I believe how she had heard this clue from Waltz .
This clue is " 6 miles " under Horse Rock , and could be interpreted like " 6 miles to Horse Rock " .

Just my thoughts .

 

[Azquester]

Marius,

Since Waltz may have been a little off when he spoke in broken English /German he may have been misunderstood or out right misinterpreted. In German some words sound very similar like "Cave" and "Corral". Could he have been saying pass a red outcrop that looks like a house? Or a rock or stone cave or dwelling is in actuality a stone or rock corral? Or a cave is a hill?

Many possibilities!



Here's some examples:

three, red, hills
house, cabin, canyon,
Cave, Corral, needle, north, south,
rock, stone, first, water, second,
trail, path, man, horse, shaft, hole,
vein, trick, ore, stash, tools, treasure,
setting, sun, pick, shovel,

drei, rot, Hügel
Haus, Jagdhaus, Felsschlucht,
Höhle, Hürde, Nadel, Norden, Süden,
Felsen, Stein, zuerst, Wasser, zweitens,
Spur, Pfad, Mann, Pferd, Welle, Loch,
Ader, Trick, Erz, stash, Werkzeuge, Schatz,
Einstellung, Sonne, Auswahl, Schaufel,

 

[markmar]

Bill

I believe how if one of those who had heard the clues knew to speak German language , was not hard to understand what Waltz was talking about . Is common to the emigrants to mix two different languages when they try to speak in their mother language after many years of used to speak more the second language . Anyone can understand them , enough to knows both languages .

 

[Oroblanco]

Marius,

Since Waltz may have been a little off when he spoke in broken English /German he may have been misunderstood or out right misinterpreted. <snip>

I am fairly certain this statement is 100% correct. Remember, Reiney, Herman and Old Man Petrasch got into a severe argument over Reiney's faulty memory of what Waltz had told him, the argument was so heated that they broke up and no longer worked as a team. Even in Bicknell's article, he states that "the woman is at fault" <Julia Thomas> for her imperfect memory of the details of the directions. I believe this has helped keep the LDM lost because the only people whom had been given directions, apparently did not remember it accurately, or misunderstood what Waltz had said, or misinterpreted his directions. I am certain that this is the case with most lost mines, and many lost treasures as well, that the information has some flaw or flaws plural.

What we do know is that all of these people closest to Waltz, namely Julia, Reiney, Dick Holmes, and also Herman and Old Man Petrasch, Brownie Holmes and Clay Wurst, all searched in the Superstition mountains.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

That's all true, as to where they all searched, but I have serious doubts that Waltz was not able to give them accurate directions to the close proximity of his "mine". Their first attempt to enter the mountains at (likely) Hog Canyon was doomed to failure because they did not give up the wagon and go in on foot.

After that first attempt, they may have never started from the correct place to see the image of the drawing that is said to have come from Waltz:





It would also have put them on the Stone Map Trail as well as this map:



Pure coincidence I'm sure.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Nice post Joe - and perhaps I need to clarify what I meant. I do not doubt that Waltz was trying to give accurate directions, just that the people hearing it must have made some mistake(s) in what they interpreted. Remember that interesting statement Waltz is supposed to have said to Reiney when he was trying to tell him how to get to the mine:

"Reiney you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!"

The Petraschs had a major falling out and the main reason (again supposedly, I was not there) was over Reiney not remembering the directions correctly. Bicknell faults Julia for having a faulty memory too. Waltz probably was trying to tell them how to find the mine correctly, but his listeners either were not paying attention, or misinterpreted what he was saying.

It appears that they were looking for a monumented trail as the first key to find the mine. Why this was so important I cannot say, because in the one instance in which Waltz made an attempt to take them to the mine he took them well past that first canyon in the west end of the range, which suggests that he knew how to get to the mine without relying on the monumented trail. Perhaps that was the easiest way to get to it and be sure you will get to the right canyon. There is reason to think the mine is not located in the western portion of the range at all - just the monumented trail - for Holmes attempt to trail Waltz went up the flank of Four Peaks, then crossed the Salt, ending up near Tortilla creek some distance from the west end of the range. Dick Holmes went that route on his first attempt to find the mine after Waltz was dead too, and not to First Water ranch as the Holmes directions state. Also the attempted trailing of Waltz by the Poston group, followed him to Whitlow ranch and lost him - this too is well east of the western canyons.


I think this points to a main reason for entering from the west was to find that monumented trail, which he thought would be easier for his friends to follow than to dive into the wilderness where one canyon can look very much like another. We could also refer to the Weiser (aka Wisner) story in which Waltz goes to Adams Mill near Florence for supplies, and Weiser in fleeing the mine due to the attack, comes out near Sacaton, on the south side of the range and well east of the western end of the Superstitions.


Thank you for the interesting reply and great photos!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I prefer to keep the beginning of the legend as simple as possible. Once we get beyond Bark's notes, the story starts to get a little complicated. The simple narrative is that Julia and Rhiney got there directions from Waltz and went to Hog Canyon to start their search.

I also believe that Dick Holmes, likely, followed them on that first trip. When Brownie started his systematic search, he started from the ridge near the main mountain and worked his way Northwest through the range. Julia was totally lost when she could not find that drawn view of Weaver's Needle.

Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

I forgot to add Adoph Ruth's mention of that "monumented trail" as a key landmark to lead to the mine. Of course his search was decades later, but he was apparently following some of what Bicknell wrote.

I have to sign off but will visit later to catch up.
Roy

 

[Culinary Caveman]

Mind you, I don't know a whole lot about this legend. With that said, I'd put my bet on the east side of Fish Creek.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I prefer to keep the beginning of the legend as simple as possible. Once we get beyond Bark's notes, the story starts to get a little complicated. The simple narrative is that Julia and Rhiney got there directions from Waltz and went to Hog Canyon to start their search.

I also believe that Dick Holmes, likely, followed them on that first trip. When Brownie started his systematic search, he started from the ridge near the main mountain and worked his way Northwest through the range. Julia was totally lost when she could not find that drawn view of Weaver's Needle.

Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

Well there is that alternate version, which is even simpler - that Waltz himself found his mine by following up the gold to the vein. None of the high drama from the popular versions, and also does not match the old Peralta/Ludy story. If that alternate version is true, then the trips Waltz made were really trying to get to a side canyon off Pinto creek, not any place in the western part of the range. This would also mean the part of the story (stories actually) which had Waltz going to Adams Mill and Florence, make sense as being easier to travel to and back, than across to Phoenix. We could also point out that the Pioneer Interviews were done during the Depression years, predating Sims Ely's book publication and many other books.

Culinary Caveman - Fish creek is a very interesting place, and has a little gold in it too that is coming from somewhere. The terrain gets pretty rough but it might be the right place.