You CANT Do THAT Here!

[dahut]

I had a little time between appointments today, so I jotted on over to the local high school. This site was once a former plantation home, then a school was built there in the early 1950’s. Everything from Barber coins to common clad has come out of there. And while finds have diminished over the years, it has always offered a restful place to detect when school is out. Until today.

I was working along some trashy sidewalks with my sniper coil, when I looked up at the sound of a car going by. This was at the back of the school, where interim classrooms are sited. It was an odd place for a car, so I was not really surprised to see it was a cop car prowling along. My next thought was that they had seen my truck parked nearby, under the trees.
“Uh oh,” I mumbled. “This can't be good.“
So I clicked off and went to talk to them. Better to go to them, than to have them come looking for me.

As I rounded the classroom building, a cop was standing next to my truck, looking around nervously - looking for me, no doubt. She had her walkie-talkie microphone in her hand and was speaking into it.

I hollered and waved, smiling broadly as I approached. "Looking for me?" I called.
At the sound of my voice the policewoman spun around and made a bee-line for me.

"What are you doing here?" she demanded. Few good encounters start out with that phrase.
So, I held up my detector and pointed out the obvious to her.

"Oh, well... you cant do that here!"'

"Why?" I asked.

"Only students and faculty can be on school property," she declared smugly. Without asking, she was certain I was neither.

It didn’t matter that both of my children graduated from that very high school. Nor was it known that I knew most of the teachers at one time, and many of the students, too. And I pay my taxes to keep the place in operation, like everyone else. It didn’t even matter that I had known this very policewoman personally, for years.

"Now Penny, you can see I’m not up to any harm, can’t you? How long have you known me?
What if I told you I returned a high school ring to its owner last year - a ring found on these very school grounds? This is my hobby.”

"Well, that’s nice of you Mr. H. But you can’t be here, doing that sort of thing. We’ve had break ins…"

So there it was, the "The Unassailable Break-in" excuse. I had been waiting for that. When all else fails, use the threat of security.
I mean, when has a school not faced the threat of break ins… and how can anyone muster a rally against that? I knew, then, that the jig was up.

About that time the second cop car arrived and stopped a little too abruptly, swirling up a big cloud of dust for effect.
The summoned back-up had arrived!
I felt kind of important actually, a middle aged detectorist that rated backup. The new cop jumped from the car and made straight for the other officer. The two of them talked quietly amongst themselves, never once speaking to me. I might have not been there for all the care they showed me.

Back Up Cop finally turned and said officiously, "You can't do that here; you can do it anywhere else you want, just not here."

"So that’s how it is, eh?" I retorted politely.

"Yes, sir, we’re just doing our jobs."

Again, how does a decent citizen argue with that untouchable statement?
Controlling authority figures have relied on it for compliance down through the ages for good reason.

I suppose it is a sign of the times. The sad thing is, it will be hard to drum up support for my high-school detecting case, when I mount my inevitable protest. See, most other people will blindly accept it, parroting the New Age line, "The cops are just looking out for the kids, you know."
So what am I, chopped liver? I also have a stake in protecting my neighborhood school and would turn in anyone I thought was suspicious.

In fact, once it was learned that I am a decent citizen with nothing up my sleeve but my arms, these authorities ought to say,
"Oh, you’re alright, Mr. H., and you know - it‘s good to see you.
By the way, if you see anything suspicious, please let us know. There have been break-ins, after all..."

But I'm dreaming, aren't I? Perhaps in another time, it might have happened that way.

Today, the Great Collective Mind kicks in, and slips on it’s smiling mask. Much frowning goes on behind that mask, however, over anything that smacks of independent activity. The New Agers can’t relate to you being alone within their realm of authority, pursuing some harmless activity.
Suspicion is their by-word, "We need to pass a law!" their motto.

Once it is known that you are within their sphere of influence, yet out of their direct control... on school grounds, no less... well, something must be done about that. It is just that simple, for them. We have rules, you know.

"Go somewhere else, sir,” they'll say. “And remember - you can’t do that here. Oh, and have a nice day.“

 

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[Monty]

Last word. Monty

 

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[mts]

Many of you people really need to get over the idea that if something is "public" property that you have the right to use it. There is no such thing as "public" property. It is "government owned" property. And as such you have no rights to it. The only rights you truly have are those that are granted to you. You have no more right to detect on school grounds than you have to walk into the cafeteria on a school day and order a slice of pizza for your lunch. I wish it were different but that's the world we live in.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

mts, you say:

"The only rights you truly have are those that are granted to you."

Sure, and if there is nothing specifically prohibiting an activity, then that activity is not dis-allowed. Ie.: that would be "implied" permission granted. In much the same way as when you come to an intersection, and there is no sign forbidding a U-turn, you assume that it must be ok to make a U-turn, unless a law forbids otherwise. Therefore, even though what you're saying is true, it does not logically follow that we can not metal detect in a public access place, unless expressly told "ok".

 

[mts]

mts, you say:

"The only rights you truly have are those that are granted to you."

Sure, and if there is nothing specifically prohibiting an activity, then that activity is not dis-allowed. Ie.: that would be "implied" permission granted. In much the same way as when you come to an intersection, and there is no sign forbidding a U-turn, you assume that it must be ok to make a U-turn, unless a law forbids otherwise. Therefore, even though what you're saying is true, it does not logically follow that we can not metal detect in a public access place, unless expressly told "ok".

I agree with you for a true "public access places". A school is not such a place. Neither is the water treatment plant, the police station, or the mayor's office. A public park is a place that the government has specifically set asside as a "public access/use place". You should be able to detect in a park unless there are rules expressly prohibiting it. Those same rules do not apply to school grounds as they are not typically considered to be publicly accessible without permission.

 

[mts]

Many of you people really need to get over the idea that if something is "public" property that you have the right to use it. There is no such thing as "public" property. It is "government owned" property. And as such you have no rights to it. The only rights you truly have are those that are granted to you.

By those with badges, right?

Spoken like a true stormtrooper.

Nice being part of the 'ruling class' isn't it?

(you know, being part of, or knowing the 'right' people...)



Wow, the arrogance is palpable.

I actually think that it is the people who believe it is their God given right to detect wherever they want to that are showing their arrogance. Just because you pay taxes doesn't give you full reign over all public lands. You actually agree with this as long as it suits you. For example, you don't want people landing their airplane on the freeway. You don't want people throwing javelins on the beaches. You don't want people using the public park to run their business or make political campaign speaches in favor of the "other" party. So as long as you agree that these "public" places aren't suited for these "other hobbies" then you are just fine with it. But as soon as someone tries to tell you that something you care about isn't allowed, then that's when you decide to stand up and get upset.

That my friend is the very definition of arrogance. People give the government the right to control many aspects of their everyday lives (schools, roads, mail, electricity, defense, oversight of businesses, security, and on and on). But when things don't go their way, suddenly the whole government is a bunch of control hungry "stormtroopers".

 

[sniffer]

Spooky, some people still think that the drivel the slides out of their mouth, is classified as intelligence.
I don't think so. I know a buttload of LEO's, some good, some are total pieces of sh*t.
you're dead on. most cops these days are the ones that got shoved into lockers, shoved out of the locker room naked,
you get the picture, and now they think they're heroes. actually, there is good reason to call them BARNEY
because they don't have an ANDY'S

MTS, there is a big difference between public use and stupidity

 

[mts]

MTS, there is a big difference between public use and stupidity

Not always... Public use and stupidity are in the eyes of the beholder. Sure, I gave some pretty drastic examples. I could come up with other examples that would be a better fit. How about roller blading or skateboarding on the park benches? Or letting dogs go to the bathroom or run around without leashes? I'm sure that if I tried long enough I could come up with something that other people do that you'd find annoying and would like to have banned that those same people would think was totally harmless and reasonable. It isn't until someone tells us that they don't approve of what we are doing that we suddenly get all bent out of shape about it and start calling "foul". It is arrogant to believe that our hobby is more reasonable than someone else's that we don't approve of.

 

[Dig em all]

you must live in Connecticut!

 

[ford7379trucks]

A good cop knows to be nice untill its time not to be nice. A good cop knows to treat everyone with respect. The problem is good people only see the bad cops and the good cops are looking for the real criminals.

 

[Frankn]

First off, my nextstore neighbor is a state trooper. He is a nice guy. The kind
that hates giving out speeding tickets, "his quota requirement", but loves to give out DWI tickets. He told me that they are taught in training to TAKE COMAND of the situation when they arrive. He admitted that some cops have extreme big egos!
Now I had a similar insident, but at a park. I found out that at city parks hunting is no problem, but at count parks,which are much larger, each park has its own administrator who you must find and get permission from. The state parks do not allow hunting during June, July, or August and you must get the specific park rangers permission to hunt other times. Some times it is yes, somes times it is no! I think it depends on how sucessful he was the nite before!
Schools are no problem when school is out. For ref. this is Harford Co. Md. I try to get the rules down before I hunt, but this is hard when you are out of your home territory.

​

 

[mts]

First off, my nextstore neighbor is a state trooper. He is a nice guy. The kind
that hates giving out speeding tickets, "his quota requirement", but loves to give out DWI tickets. He told me that they are taught in training to TAKE COMAND of the situation when they arrive. He admitted that some cops have extreme big egos!
Now I had a similar insident, but at a park. I found out that at city parks hunting is no problem, but at count parks,which are much larger, each park has its own administrator who you must find and get permission from. The state parks do not allow hunting during June, July, or August and you must get the specific park rangers permission to hunt other times. Some times it is yes, somes times it is no! I think it depends on how sucessful he was the nite before!
Schools are no problem when school is out. For ref. this is Harford Co. Md. I try to get the rules down before I hunt, but this is hard when you are out of your home territory.

​

I went to school with four guys that are now police officers. Two of them are great guys. Two of them are not. Police officers are people. And 50% of the people in the world are jerks (myself included). You don't have to look too hard out here to see that not everyone is of the same "caliber" so to speak. It's funny that you mention your neighbor being a good guy and being a state trooper. The two guys that I mention that are great guys are both state troopers. The other two are small town police officers. I do know a couple of other small town police officers that are great guys though so I don't think you can draw any specific conclusions.

One of our local school districts has banned detecting. And that is their prerogative. But I'd rather know that up front and have it be consistent than to have to worry about all of the rules you apparently have to endure. I really feel for anyone who has to put up with the "sometimes it's yes and sometimes it's no" syndrome. I'm not sure how I would cope with that.

When it's up to the whim of a power hungry administrator or police officer then you are over a barrel. You either live with it and don't detect or go above them to try and get an answer. There was a great thread recently about someone who did go above the park administrator's head. The guy contacted the mayor and got a favorable reply. I think in the case of this thread I'd go to the local school board and ask them for permission. The worst case scenario is that they tell you no which doesn't change anything for you. But if they tell you yes and are willing to give you a letter stating such then you could show it to the cops the next time they come calling. And if you show them the letter and they still harass you then they have stepped out of line and need to be smacked down for it. Either way, I'm glad I'm not in the OP's situation.

It really stinks that many people look down on our hobby. Now we know how those skateboarders feel.

 

[BIG61AL]

So you - the public- were on public property and you were been ordered off it for a legal action.... Next time call 911 and say some police are hassling you. When the shift Sgt gets wind of his officers being reported via 911 that will get his attention real fast. Do the police uphold the written laws or the say so laws?

 

[mts]

So you - the public- were on public property and you were been ordered off it for a legal action.... Next time call 911 and say some police are hassling you. When the shift Sgt gets wind of his officers being reported via 911 that will get his attention real fast. Do the police uphold the written laws or the say so laws?

A school is not "public use property".

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

It is annoying, at times, to have to think of school property as NOT public property - and I understand why - all my real estate taxes go to that school. It's the local tax money that keeps all those kids in band uniforms, and gives them new school books, pays for the building (the school doesn't pay taxes) and all the other things it takes to keep a school running (like the furnace).

Especially in these days and times when federal funds are not keeping up with how much it takes, per student, to run a school for a season.

Here, in this town, it supposedly takes $102.00 per child to send them to school, and the federal government contributes $21.00 per student.
Of course, the issue is - we pay the government much more than that (we, being the taxpayers), they "skim" from that and send it back to the states, who "skim" off that, and send it to the individual schools. Then, the local taxpayers pay real estate taxes to support the rest. So, every dime actually comes from the public. So - people get attitudes about that - not just detectorists either. There are folks who want to do things on the school grounds (outside), like little league, since there are 2 baseball fields, fund-raising activities, etc.

Here, its always ok - but the place we use to live was...........ridiculous. And then the school board cannot figure out why parents have issues when they want to do "extra stuff" that doesn't have a thing to do with the kids. (shrug).

I have noticed, though - when it comes to "small town" activities and the law - it, most of the time, is the small town supervisors and council folks and police, that have the "big" attitudes - when they are elected or appointed, they want to be "top dogs", and many act like they now have the right to impose their personal will on the "smaller" folks. It's just human nature, I guess.

Beth

 

[TxMike]

I make my response two fold.

First, you are never going to win confronting cops. They will almost ALWAYS escalate the situation until you screw up and say or do something that gives them the go ahead to bounce your head off the hood of your car and throw you into cuffs. They are pretty much "bullet-proof" when they screw up. As long as they"serving in the interest" or were "just doing their jobs" or whatever line of crap they come up with, they will remain untouchable. You see, they are far too profitable to punish. I am on the far side of forty and I believe my generation was probably the last that had any real respect for LEO's...back when they were truly serving in the public's interest. If you were screwing up as a kid, you usually got a good cuff behind the ears and then brought home in the patrol car to present to your folks....who usually took up where the officer left off. Nowadays, it's all about the revenue. Whatever ticket, fine, penalty, or restitution they can dream up for something like jaywalking, you can bet your going to pay it. Unless your a cop. There's that unwritten rule that cops don't hassle other cops. And that boys and girls, leads me to my next point.

Momma always told me that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. So what's a detectorist to do to sweeten the deal with the cops? Offer to help them. Tell them that if they get a call about some elderly lady losing her wedding ring in the garden, you'll go find it for them. Maybe they can "deputize" you to help them locate shell casings or possibly find a gun that they think was thrown of the bridge into the creek. I'm willing to bet that once you help them out a few times, you can pretty well detect wherever you feel like. You probably can get an "official" pass saying your doing the Lord's, uh, ahem, (insert local politician's name) work. In short, if ya can't lick 'em, join 'em. Who knows, you might get out of a speeding ticket or two as a bonus!

 

[mts]

I make my response two fold.

First, you are never going to win confronting cops. They will almost ALWAYS escalate the situation until you screw up and say or do something that gives them the go ahead to bounce your head off the hood of your car and throw you into cuffs. They are pretty much "bullet-proof" when they screw up. As long as they"serving in the interest" or were "just doing their jobs" or whatever line of crap they come up with, they will remain untouchable. You see, they are far too profitable to punish. I am on the far side of forty and I believe my generation was probably the last that had any real respect for LEO's...back when they were truly serving in the public's interest. If you were screwing up as a kid, you usually got a good cuff behind the ears and then brought home in the patrol car to present to your folks....who usually took up where the officer left off. Nowadays, it's all about the revenue. Whatever ticket, fine, penalty, or restitution they can dream up for something like jaywalking, you can bet your going to pay it. Unless your a cop. There's that unwritten rule that cops don't hassle other cops. And that boys and girls, leads me to my next point.

Momma always told me that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. So what's a detectorist to do to sweeten the deal with the cops? Offer to help them. Tell them that if they get a call about some elderly lady losing her wedding ring in the garden, you'll go find it for them. Maybe they can "deputize" you to help them locate shell casings or possibly find a gun that they think was thrown of the bridge into the creek. I'm willing to bet that once you help them out a few times, you can pretty well detect wherever you feel like. You probably can get an "official" pass saying your doing the Lord's, uh, ahem, (insert local politician's name) work. In short, if ya can't lick 'em, join 'em. Who knows, you might get out of a speeding ticket or two as a bonus!

Another option would be to volunteer for some of the same programs they get involved with. In my local small town the police department is involved with the D.A.R.E. program, Safety Town, and a multitude of other events put on by the city rec department. If you volunteer for some of those events you will become known to them and the rest of the community. No one hassles their friends. The people who are friends to the community can detect anywhere they want. The people who are unknown and look like a derilict get hassled. Be known for being one of the "good guys" and you'll get hassled a lot less by the police.

 

[greydigger]

Mrs. O, where I live, the kids in Band, Theatre, and Sports do not get (much?) money from the schools.
They buy their own uniforms, instruments and gear with help from fund raisers as well as charge admission and refreshment sales.
Not sure what the $102. means, is that per student per day,week, month, year?
In Oregon we pay over $10,000 per child a year in taxes for education.

dahut -
If your friend "Penny" says that only students and faculty can be on school grounds, I would think that could be challenged. Lots of parents go to games and other events.
I would not challenge her then and there though.
At a school board meeting it could be asked if all citizens were banned from using school grounds when classes were not in session.
I wouldn't ask for a permission letter from the board either.
The minutes of the meeting should be public record and available to all citizens.
Keep a record of who, when, and where questions asked, as local news media might be interested in some answers.
Grey

 

[BIG61AL]

Any public school with a park area that is not behind a locked fence IS public property that is available for all users, for example, kite flyer's, picnickers, soccor games, base ball games, jogging, dog walking. Then unless otherwise posted as a metal detector you have a right to be there the same as all the other users. If they insist you have to leave then ask them to clear out everybody even the women with baby carridges. Who know maybe they are the ones breaking into the schools creating a "security" issue.

 

[jmaryt]

Hmmm, not a cop bash post eh? Sounds like it to me. I see at least 4 posts from someone who thinks he/she knows it all but wouldn't make a pimple on a cop's a ss if they tried. Just keep on believing you have all the answers and we'll see you in the pokey before long. Be sure and tell the next cop you see that you pay his salary and to get you a glass of water. I'm sure they'll run right over and do that. You probably don't pay enough taxes in a year to hire him for ten minutes of your life. Next time you need help, call a convict, yeah they can be trusted more than the cops. I personally know at least 600 cops and sure some of them are a ss holes just like some members of this forum. But most of them are good honest people who do a thankless job to keep your butt out of a sling. Just keep on keeping on and you will make a lot of friends and influence people. BS If you are trying to get a rise out of a cop you did, congratulations. Monty

sounded good though didn't it?..the guy that started this "dumb" post is just
"screwing" around anyway!..i am sure most people can see through this "crap!"
so what's he gonna do about it?..sue the town next?..(w.t.f!)..the smart play is just move on
and find some place else to hunt!....why tangle ss holes with the cops who are just doing their jobs
and answering a complaint!..(lol!)

(h.h!)
j.t.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Wow! $10,000 per child per year??

The average school cost (public) across the U.S. is $3,000 per child per year. There are different ways that you can figure it out, in South Dakota (let me go one further - in our school district in South Dakota) For us, it is figured per student, per month times 9 months plus the cost of things like band uniforms, etc. Our kids do not pay for their own. So, $102.00 times 9 months of school (which is actually broken down into weeks, so it is not 36 weeks, it is, I think, 40 weeks, which is actually 10 lunar months - its an insane formula), so $102.00 times 10, which is $1020.00, plus a certain percentage for the other stuff.

I think your $10,000 per child is probably wrong. I looked up Oregon, and their good PIVATE schools are approximately $5900.00 per child, so I'm not sure if all the districts are thrown together with private schools or what.

The department of education, online - for Oregon says that Oregon's public schools cost approximately 1.6 times the national average - the national average is $3,000, so that would make Oregon's average about $4800.00. (per child per year, which is definitely higher than where I live), but, with the additional extra costs, per child per year, is about $2900, here.

Our problem in figuring out school costs is that western South Dakota is much less populated than eastern and mid South Dakota, that the information really is skewed. Add to that, the fact that we pay taxes for the independent nations of the Indian reservations, but they have different federal standards and state standards per child. So, its kind of screwed up - which I think is why the "formula" is screwed up. The reservations also have different days and months of education that the non-reservation places, so I think it also screws with the time line (the per child per year calculations). Plus, the reservations get separate funds besides the regular funds, so............who knows exactly who pays what when and how?

Either way, the point is - our tax money pays for the schools. MY real estate taxes. Who pays real estate taxes on things they don't own - besides that - that means 2 other things - if you own a home, you are paying for it - if you are renting - you are not. Then there is the 2 sided argument of "I have no kids in school, why should I pay" versus the "You had the education, so you are paying forward and backward" arguement.

Regardless, how much more "public" can you get than paying for something available to all other people? It is one of the reasons people quite often consider schools as public property - which was my point.

B