My theory on the Peralta Stone Maps and my quest to prove it.

[Garry]

Joe,

DeJavu!

Exactly which of the following statements by Azhiker do you believe you can take to the bank. You seem to have been impressed! I thought you might at least ask for some documentation given the track record. Have you tried to verify any of these statements?

The problem and confusion is centered around the issue that no one today can produce the original acquisition paperwork that shows the stone maps being donated.

I talked to the following individuals, Lee Hammons, Paul Dean, Mason Coggins, Ray Grant, Frank Knight, John Jett, and Elgin Kreiwald. When were these conversation held? Quite a feat!

Horace M. Coggins, former head of the Arizona Mining Association at the time the stone maps were donated and former director of the Arizona Mines and Mineral Museum.

Ray Grant, former President and head curator of the AL Flagg Foundation at the time the maps were donated.

Frank Knight, Director and curator of the Az. Mines and Mineral Museum at the time the maps were donated and Lee Hammons direct supervisor.

John Jett, Director and curator of the Az. Mines and Mineral Museum following Frank Knight's resignation as Director and Lee Hammons direct supervisor.

For someone who was on a first name basis with all these guys why does it appear he has no clue. I guess these stories served him well in the past and as long as people ask no questions and continue to enable him he will continue.

Garry

 

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[wrmickel1]

wrmickel1

I believe you are partially correct. It is my opinion the stone maps now in possession of the SMHS Museum are copies. That does not mean they are fakes or even forgeries. It is my opinion they are a faithful reproduction of the originals and were donated originally as copies. The problem and confusion is centered around the issue that no one today can produce the original acquisition paperwork that shows the stone maps being donated.

I came to this conclusion after examining the maps the SMHS Museum now has, and through speaking with the following individuals:
Lee Hammons, former assistant curator of the Arizona Mines and Mineral Museum at the time the maps were donated.
Paul Dean, former Arizona Republic columnist.
Horace M. Coggins, former head of the Arizona Mining Association at the time the stone maps were donated and former director of the Arizona Mines and Mineral Museum.
Ray Grant, former President and head curator of the AL Flagg Foundation at the time the maps were donated.
Frank Knight, Director and curator of the Az. Mines and Mineral Museum at the time the maps were donated and Lee Hammons direct supervisor.
John Jett, Director and curator of the Az. Mines and Mineral Museum following Frank Knight's resignation as Director and Lee Hammons direct supervisor.
Elgin Klewald, former vice president of MOEL Corporation 1960 - 1965.

It is my personal conclusion the original stone maps were donated in 1969 and a copy of the stone maps donated or acquired shortly after. The original maps disapeared when the Arizona Mining Association turned the Mineral Museum over to the Arizona Department of Mines and Mineral Resources. What was left is the copy of the originals which the SMHS Museum has today. This is my own personal opinion.

Azhiker

Azhiker

I beg to differ, There sorta like the real copy- "BUT NOT A ORIGINAL" In a world of cloke and DAGGER one slip and your cut from the chase! Why, the way there depicted now, I guy might start in hy-dro-gilf-can-yon or something.

Wrmickel1

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

DeJavu!

Exactly which of the following statements by Azhiker do you believe you can take to the bank. You seem to have been impressed! I thought you might at least ask for some documentation given the track record. Have you tried to verify any of these statements?

The problem and confusion is centered around the issue that no one today can produce the original acquisition paperwork that shows the stone maps being donated.

I talked to the following individuals, Lee Hammons, Paul Dean, Mason Coggins, Ray Grant, Frank Knight, John Jett, and Elgin Kreiwald. When were these conversation held? Quite a feat!

Horace M. Coggins, former head of the Arizona Mining Association at the time the stone maps were donated and former director of the Arizona Mines and Mineral Museum.

Ray Grant, former President and head curator of the AL Flagg Foundation at the time the maps were donated.

Frank Knight, Director and curator of the Az. Mines and Mineral Museum at the time the maps were donated and Lee Hammons direct supervisor.

John Jett, Director and curator of the Az. Mines and Mineral Museum following Frank Knight's resignation as Director and Lee Hammons direct supervisor.

For someone who was on a first name basis with all these guys why does it appear he has no clue. I guess these stories served him well in the past and as long as people ask no questions and continue to enable him he will continue.

Garry

Hi Garry,

Don't believe I mentioned taking our friend's statements "to the bank". What I did say was:

"In my opinion, you are the person who is most likely to provide us with some semblance of the truth of the matter, assuming we can trust you to tell us that truth.

I still enjoy reading your posts but I am, understandably, somewhat cautious."

When he is writing about Apache history, and even their "Life Way", or about local history, that doesn't inject himself or his family into that history, I think I am able to view his statements with some degree of personal knowledge. I believe we have read many of the same books.

I have been studying Apache, and Arizona history for a good number of years now. In that process, I have covered as much of those two subject as time and money would allow. That was why I eventually started questioning some of his statements. That resulted in his deleting all of his posts, as well as all of the topics he started on Peter's old site.

When I asked pertinent questions of "Spirit" on DUSA, he started complaining in all of his identities, to Jim B. and managed to get me banned. I think he realized I knew too much about Silas John and his Four Cross Cult, also known as Holy Ground. I think that is why "Spirit" did not come over here, but showed up as Azhiker.

I have always given you great respect over your efforts and abilities to......find the truth. While my own powers have been failing fast, you remain the steady hand at seeking the true history. I make it a habit to steer as many folks to your site as possible.

Let me know if you got the McGee/Bent letters.

Hope all is well with you and Carol.

Joe

 

[Garry]

Joe,

I got the McGee/Bent letters. Thanks! That is quite a volume of correspondence over a period of about 3 years! I have only perused those letters and right now I am focused on the Don Burgess article in the Journal of the Southwest. (I do have a lot of help!)

The question for me has long been the who created them and the why they were created and how they were created. The evidence seems overwhelming, at least to me, that they are a hoax. Burgess has uncovered some very interesting information, that I was unaware of, on those three questions.

As far as Azhiker and local history, the family angles are only the tail of the elephant. He has been very successful in rewriting AZ history. I will certainly defer to you regarding his knowledge of the Apache but there is another whole story beyond Apaches and family.

Hiker will now most likely play his worn out victim card!

Garry

 

[cactusjumper]

Garry,

Glad you got the letters. They do provide a little more grist for the McGee mill.

My comments really concern the small bits of Arizona and Apache history and habits that most people have never heard of. I have often been impressed with K's posts, because of those minor points. On the other hand, it's been the errors on "minor points" which have tripped him up. I believe it's why he is so sensitive to questions or corrections.

Take care,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Loke

I post a overlay which is more easy to understand . This match 100% with the ground . I hope to see what means a good overlay .
This overlay is the Khiel map and show the region of Khiel treasure .





I hope to change your opinion about overlays .

Marius

 

[John_Arizona]

Thanks for wishing me good luck Homar. I`m just a regular guy and I only have so many tricks up my sleeve. But one thing that I learned in this journey of life, is to follow my own hearts compass. There`s probably nothing out there, and if there is, I`ll probably never find it. But I don`t want to go to my grave not knowing without even trying. There are a couple of places of interest that I want to hike to. Hopefully there will be more than three rocks stacked up. I made a major move yesterday and traded in my dually for a new Ford Raptor(overkill) so I can do some four wheeling and not worry so much about getting stuck. I`m not too keen on planning anything but I`m sort of leaning to heading back out there with my brother sometime in October. A couple of others said they may join us, but it`s the timing that throws everything all out of wack. Take it easy, Chuck

too bad you gave up so easily

 

[markmar]

John_Arizona

How did you know this . You saw a vision ?

 

[John_Arizona]

saw it in person

 

[393stroker]

too bad you gave up so easily

I didn`t give up yet, I`ve been working in turnarounds in the refineries in the Houston area since the begining of the year. I plan on going back out in a few weeks if I can escape from work. I want to re-visit Rogers Trough Trailhead past the cave dwelling and get up on White Mt. and then come down through Rough Canyon. And then if the mountain lions dont get me I want to check out the other areas on the back side to the north. I`m looking forward to getting away from the hustle and bustle of the big machine.

 

[Loke]

Loke

I post a overlay which is more easy to understand . This match 100% with the ground . I hope to see what means a good overlay .
This overlay is the Khiel map and show the region of Khiel treasure .

View attachment 746764

View attachment 746766

I hope to change your opinion about overlays .

Marius

It doesn't change my mind about overlays in general - but ...
I must admit that this one is the best I've come across so far!
Kudos!

 

[cactusjumper]

Everyone has a "theory" on the Stone Maps. Theories are not facts. Here is what I once wrote about my theory on Ted DeGrazia and Chuck Aylor's possible involvement in their creation:
_______________________________________________

Joe Ribaudo
06-08-2008, 12:24 AM
Aurum,


Thank you for your insightful comments and historical input on Chuck Aylor and Ted DeGrazia.


I am fairly familiar with the theory that Chuck, Ted and one other man was involved in the creation of the Stone Maps, as I am the one who dreamed it up. I could write a pretty good argument to support the theory, but a good deal of what I know about the matter will never be made public. Much of the evidence came from private conversations with well known Dutch Hunters and repeated readings of certain books. Small clues here and there over the years, without them realizing what they were providing.


There is no doubt that I could be wrong. That would not be a problem for me, as it would not be the first or last time.


Shakespeare's meaning is not hard for me to follow and, of course, it has nothing to do with the Stone Maps. It's just a coincidence that some Jesuit created a map of the Superstitions that required the plucking out of a heart as part of the mystery. On the other hand, if Chuck Aylor had a hand in creating the Stone Maps, it's not really hard to follow his train of thought and reasoning.


The area of the Stone Maps help to point to their creators. "Caballo Ojo" on Palomino Mountain is also a clue. The artistic style of the priest and the horse is another. The list is really pretty long, and I suppose I should write the whole thing down....while I am still able. I don't really expect anyone to accept my story, but the thread seemed to lead me into it.


As for Ted DeGrazia, he led more than one life, and I doubt anyone knew him completely.....short of the two women in his life. Many knew the public side of DeGrazia, not so well known was "the unseen side".


Hope all is well.


Take care,


Joe
_________________________________________

While I have been known to come up with some out of the box theories on the Stone Maps, they were only theories, not factual beliefs. I have almost always provided facts to support my theories.

On the other hand, I have never fabricated false history, and tried to inject them into real history. It has only been the cowards who are afraid to put their names at the bottom of their posts, who continually do that.

Joe Ribaudo
Lake Havasu City, AZ

 

[peralta]

I didn`t give up yet, I`ve been working in turnarounds in the refineries in the Houston area since the begining of the year. I plan on going back out in a few weeks if I can escape from work. I want to re-visit Rogers Trough Trailhead past the cave dwelling and get up on White Mt. and then come down through Rough Canyon. And then if the mountain lions dont get me I want to check out the other areas on the back side to the north. I`m looking forward to getting away from the hustle and bustle of the big machine.

Hey buddy, hope your doing well. Don't forget to take some breaks.

 

[peralta]

Everyone has a "theory" on the Stone Maps. Theories are not facts. Here is what I once wrote about my theory on Ted DeGrazia and Chuck Aylor's possible involvement in their creation:
_______________________________________________

Joe Ribaudo
06-08-2008, 12:24 AM
Aurum,

Thank you for your insightful comments and historical input on Chuck Aylor and Ted DeGrazia.

I am fairly familiar with the theory that Chuck, Ted and one other man was involved in the creation of the Stone Maps, as I am the one who dreamed it up. I could write a pretty good argument to support the theory, but a good deal of what I know about the matter will never be made public. Much of the evidence came from private conversations with well known Dutch Hunters and repeated readings of certain books. Small clues here and there over the years, without them realizing what they were providing.

There is no doubt that I could be wrong. That would not be a problem for me, as it would not be the first or last time.

Shakespeare's meaning is not hard for me to follow and, of course, it has nothing to do with the Stone Maps. It's just a coincidence that some Jesuit created a map of the Superstitions that required the plucking out of a heart as part of the mystery. On the other hand, if Chuck Aylor had a hand in creating the Stone Maps, it's not really hard to follow his train of thought and reasoning.

The area of the Stone Maps help to point to their creators. "Caballo Ojo" on Palomino Mountain is also a clue. The artistic style of the priest and the horse is another. The list is really pretty long, and I suppose I should write the whole thing down....while I am still able. I don't really expect anyone to accept my story, but the thread seemed to lead me into it.

As for Ted DeGrazia, he led more than one life, and I doubt anyone knew him completely.....short of the two women in his life. Many knew the public side of DeGrazia, not so well known was "the unseen side".

Hope all is well.

Take care,

Joe
_________________________________________

While I have been known to come up with some out of the box theories on the Stone Maps, they were only theories, not factual beliefs. I have almost always provided facts to support my theories.

On the other hand, I have never fabricated false history, and tried to inject them into real history. It has only been the cowards who are afraid to put their names at the bottom of their posts, who continually do that.

Joe Ribaudo
Lake Havasu City, AZ

Hello joe, I know you have to be joking about the peralta stones. The problem is that I don't see any reason on providing any more information because most see it as a joke.I I on the other hand, will continue my enjoyment with those that join me in my quest.someone advised me that none of you will believe unless I show photos of gold.
I have recently located information that would change the way one could search for mines and treasures in the World.
Good luck
Tom

 

[cactusjumper]

Tom,

For you and anyone else interested in some modern-day research into the Stone Maps, go here:

The Peralta Stone Maps

I would be wary of any information coming from anyone who is not signing their real name to their posts. Not saying they are not being factual, but too much history has been made up by some posters. I guess it just comes down to who you trust.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[peralta]

Tom,

For you and anyone else interested in some modern-day research into the Stone Maps, go here:

The Peralta Stone Maps

I would be wary of any information coming from anyone who is not signing their real name to their posts. Not saying they are not being factual, but too much history has been made up by some posters. I guess it just comes down to who you trust.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Hi joe your right, I have solved it all but if I put my theory's. For sure nobody would read anything I wrote.think about it how could there be hundreds of sealed mines and there are yet they have been there hundreds of years? Why have I found monuments sometimes 20 to 100 foot high? How could all the workers keep it a secret?did they fear the wrath of god?if I had 30 people working in a mine at least one person would pass information to relatives.there are so many mysteries.
Take care
TOM

 

[markmar]

cactusjumper

I don't know whom you mean how they don't put the real name under their posts .
Always , ever I put my real name under my posts . My username contain a half of my surname and a half of my name .
Maybe the future complaints will are about the address under the signature .

Be relaxed , the life is nice .


Marius

 

[markmar]

cactusjumper

You wrote " On the other hand, I have never fabricated false history, and tried to inject them into real history. It has only been the cowards who are afraid to put their names at the bottom of their posts, who continually do that. '

If you are not a coward , tell us who is the member which you mean .

Marius

 

[393stroker]

https://picasaweb.google.com/111105718031384169372/20130314?authkey=Gv1sRgCKPkrvqE_IPLRQ# I went out to Arizona to check it out again and came up empty handed....again.I detoured to the museum in Tucson to check out the lead cross artifacts after seeing the vid that somehiker posted. That really got my heart pumping. Maybe they dumped the test molds and the gold ones are still out there. But it was good to get some hiking and rock climbing in. The weather was perfect and water was abundant, must have rained before I got there. It must be spring break because everybody and their mother was out there. Everyone I ran into was very friendly. I went to the spot that I thought could be a mine w/ tailings down JB Ranch road but it was just a cattle trail where there was white rock that there hoofs exposed. I went down 242 and was trying to get across the creek (Pinto?) without having to swim and I saw what looked like gold dust or fines in the bowls in the bedrock. I don`t know if it was gold for sure but it looked like it and it would take a long time to get enough to amount to anything. I ended up just driving through the water in the truck to get to the other side. I was affraid that it wouldn`t make it and I would get stuck like Chuck but the Raptor pulled through as adrvertised. I climbed to the top of the hill in hopes of finding something like one of those trail markers that was recently discovered but found nothing but a beautiful view. Then I made it to the R.T. Trailhead late at night and camped out in the front seat. When the sun came up I didn`t have it in me anymore to go the 20 miles by myself to Rough Canyon and back, so I headed back home. On the way out I stopped to climb an easy hill that looked like there might be a cave but it was just a shallow washout. D, I had already left by the time you sent your message. Take it easy, Chuck

 

[somehiker]

Nice report Chuck.
Looking for the LDM or trying to solve the SM's might be why we head for the mountains, but it's what we experience in doing so which is our reward.
You came back with some memories and a nice set of photos to share, and that grin on your face shows you were havin a good time.
So you really didn't come back empty handed at all. But it's like playing golf on the toughest course in the world, where the fairways are only as good as the research we use, the greens are overgrown, and the there's no flags at the holes. At the eighteenth hole there's a bottle of whiskey and two glasses.
Nice pics of the Tucson Artifact display BTW.
I would imagine finding something like that made from gold would get the old heart pounding some.

Regards:SH.