The Peralta Stones

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote: how much was found under his bed ?

Only Dick Holmes could answer that <snip>

Well a bit of checking, and according to Clay Wurst, there were 48 and a half pounds of ore in the box. Can't verify this, but it is from Clay and his connection to Brownie and Dick Holmes is well known so could be true. It seems a reasonable weight for that amount of gold ore, considering that a large coffee-pot full of placer gold weighs over 200 pounds. Still no evidence of a nephew, not even a name for him.

Oroblanco

 

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[the blindbowman]

Greetings,

Blindbowman wrote: how much was found under his bed ?

Only Dick Holmes could answer that - and he is on the far side of the river so we can't ask him. How much would fit in a shoe box? By bulk, not a lot, but by weight a considerable amount.

The statue could be blackened by painting also, or by the expedient of smoke from a fire. I have another question for you - where does the gold statue originate?

Oroblanco

if i am right and the dick holmes acount is true but mixed up to confuse him from knowing he had 1/3 of the real dirrections than dick holmes could not have found the mine with what was given him and he never did , yet the clues would show up sooner or later and they did ...

the dutchman knew julia or the boy could not find the mind with out the other 1/3 of the dirrections and they did not find it with out dick holmes dirrection , it looks like dick holmes did not share well with others lol .. after she took him to cort she never got the other dirrections from him !


good question if i am right the black color could have been the same way they were hideing the golden bells , painting them black with some kind of ash or paint .. if we are to beleave i am on the right track than the statue could have been part of the treasure trove taken to the tunnle thus the dutchman gives us the answer him self

i quote " than take the old goverment trail to san Carlos "

i found it funny that he said that in that way . when i checked there was a staint of san carlos . is he talking about that or the spainish king carlos , ether way i beleave he is talking about san carlos to the south ....ether way a shiping port to spain or the staint of san carlos ..

i dont beleave this statue was made at the tunnle . but at one time there could have been fires melting ore and makeing bars . this could have been how they were makeing the objects turn black .... to me it is really sad to think of the indains working under those conditions in the mines ...

someone needs to set these legends free and let those souls free ..

the treasure list was sealed 1646 yet it says the bells were cast in 1603 , 1687 kino was viceroyalty of mexico and leader of the jesuits ...so he played some part in the jesuits leader ship from 1683 to his death in 1711... the jesuit expulsion orderin 1767 so there is some confussion of dates and data .. yet the over legends could over lap more than we know ..but if you read the guadalupe de tayopa part of tim haydocks acount you read there was marriages and death in TAYOPA shortly before 1700 but this could in fact subport the idea the massacre happend just before the 1700 or there abouts up to about 1708 or even close to kinos own death maybe kino in fact hide in southern caland died there shortly after the massacre happend ...see we dont know when the massacre happend but we dop know the the marragies were of pure spainish blood just before 1700 yet in 1703 came a royal decreeto some of the jesuits that were violating the law of the king of spain , dose these dates give us a over all time line for the massacre and the acount of the massacre it self . if so we can under stand what happend and why and where and how ...

it would have been about the right time for kino to play a leadership roll in what happend to the tayopa . yet we under stand kino saw the pit before this happend ...so the facts are there Kino could be the maker of the maps and the tunnle could be the tayopa mine and the massacre site could be the same massacre site in the supersititons, and the gold custody could in fact be the statue in the tunnle under the pit ...

am i where the legends finialy become hole again ... only one way to find out ...

so yes i will go on record as stateing i beleave IMHO the massacre happend some time between 1700 - 1708... some where i read a statement that said the jesuits return the treasure trove to the tayopa for safe keeping if thats the case , than the tunnle under the LDM is the tayopa .... and i got to say if it is not the tayopa i would be out right shocked . because they have gone to some real work to hide this tunnle ...IMHO it is the Tayopa ..

is the wagon trail we found a trail to the vault ? or is it near the rock house , the peralta hiden camp ?

if so it has been lost for 300 years about 1707

if thats true than we can shake with enjoyment to know that the city of Cibola was on the 1539 map of Marcos de Niza.. because the tayopa legend in this case would belay the cave of the secerd place and tie dirrectly to cibola , this could tell us the indain legends past down to the apache could be true ...and let me state one other fact , in the dick holmes acount the dutchman points out "a round Indain ruin of rocks.." and this ruin is some 200ft away from the LDM site in my research and a blowout of any size could have in fact blowen gold dust and coverd the area for a few hunderd ft away . thus the legend of the lost citys of gold and cibola would be some what true ..

dose that answer your question ..?

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you Blindbowman, it seems you are working off legends on many points. For my own part, I fail to see a solid, verifiable connection between Tayopa, the Paramo placers, father Kino and the Jesuits, to the Superstition mountains. For instance, some of the key points in the description of the location of Tayopa, such as being able to hear a dog barking in Guaynopa (a known locality in Sonora) on a clear night while standing in the collection of huts around the church of Tayopa, would seem to make it utterly impossible for the location of Tayopa to be very far from Guaynopa which is in Sonora. I would very much like to suggest that you find a copy of a book, "Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver" by J. Frank Dobie, which has a lot of information on Tayopa. As our friend Tropical Tramp has pointed out, one of Dobie's maps is in fact correct (a VERY rare thing for treasure maps) except for one important detail. You may decide to make a second expedition, (after hunting the LDM of course! ) south of the border to Old Mexico yourself, perhaps find the 23 million pesos in silver left in the vault near the church! (I know I am seriously thinking of such a trip....silver is at $13.26 per ounce after all!!! )

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

old mexico is a great place to party , but i been there did that ...lol . if i am right tayopa would be in a cayon and the cayon would act like a huge speaker dish,,
in fact they would only be between 300 and 450 miles apart , on a still air you could hear the bells echoing in the cayons ...another factor would be the tayopa would have been to the southern most part of the mt range dirrecting the reflected echos to the south ...

you ask why would a man with a broken leg not go back . the acount says he died . latter that night with out pointing out his location . but i find a few things that need to reflect about his statements .

1 . he had no reason to lie he was dieing .
2.how far could he have gone .
3 . if the tunnle i found is the same one he found , than there was only two ways out of the cayon .with a broken leg you can out right rule out one . it took two man 3 hours to reach the other end and we were in good health at the time . and let me add this dirrection will test your health & skills to its limets,

4. he had to the other way and that means a longer harder way out of the mts and less water . thats IMHO why he was so sick when they found him !

they found him near the mouth of la barge cayon , and judgeing by his condition at the time felt he had came from a ways up that cayon when in fact he had never been in that cayon at all ...thus they thaught he had coverd 2-3 miles leaveing them some where in the area betweet labarge spring and charlebois spring....i may have thaught the same thing if i had not had my sighting in 1979 ....but one fact remains sound . if this was the case it explans and conferms the acount that he never told them where the tunnle was before passing out ...

could there be any sign of kino being at the peralta hiden camp ( dutchmans hiden camp )or the tunnle , IMHO yes what , who knows ....

even finding the statue dose not mean kino put it there .what i would look for is the bells ..and other chruch stones,maps and records .the statue would be a plus but nothing like finding the bells of tayopa in the tunnle .or the other stones pointing out the rest of the 18 locations of the jesuits..the treasure trove is just treasure and has very little historic value in it self , the bells would conferm my logic and my acount of my sighting and what i beleave it is ..and prove without a dout that what i saw in 1979 is the LDM ...and prove within a reasonable dout that the tunnle is in fact the tayopa mine ...

so the fact is the LDM could be seen as high gradeing the tayopa , or could be the reason the tayopa was made in the frist place ..ether way we see a vein of ore that runs under the LDM and out the dirrection of the tunnle ....if any ore remains at all in the tunnle ...

so yes i do beleave without a dout i have found the LDM and the tayopa tunnle...

finding it is one thing , collection evidence to prove it is , is something totally diffrent ... as you can see by scott woods post here ...

lets look at a few out comes . one the lost dutchman camp ground is no where near the true site ... lol

secound many things would change places ...

not to forget the LDM but you would now have a vast treasure trove and a far richer mine system with both the Tayopa and the LDM in the same place .. it could mean hunderds of millions to people & state of AZ ......

know lets look at the bad things , grred . we get to look at the truth about the mines . yes the LDM would be real but this would also prove the indains were telling the truth as well and each of us would have to face what happen to them in the mines , and take a good look at what we are and what our past was at that time ...

this people of these tribes had done nothing to the spainish or the jesuits . and look what they went threw for their freedom from the mines ...

in many ways this is the reason i am doing what i am doing ...

bad things happen and if i am right this explans why the tunnle was sealed up and left ...the death of thousands of indains and spainish and jesuits and many others ..."dose our greed blind us from their pain ?"

the magic gate way will open for me , i am a great copperhead shaman, i know these things ...

i catch my self chanting of death and sorrows when i think of the tunnles darkness . indain spirits chant threw my being ...

no i am right , this is the sorce of the old ones smiles and cryies ...i remember it well from beyond this life and many past lifes . i am a shadow walker and a seer , a wind spirit , a wysard . and just me ...
i often ask the wind where have my people gone .. where are they , the secerd place calls me the great white hairs call me . AH AH i hear it in my sleep , i hear it in my days ...

i hold my beads and hear them threw still waters and soft winds ...to the Apache i say your chiff live ... their spirits call out and ask to be heard ....

you all have your reasons i have mine ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

Prior to setting your conclusions in concrete, assuming that has not already occurred, you might want to read some of the excellent historical works that deal with the Apache, the Jesuits and the Jesuit expulsion.

For Jesuit/Kino history, you could read "Rim of Christendom" and "Kino's Historical Memoir Of Pimeria Alta" by, Herbert Eugene Bolton, Ph.D. Both will give you a pretty good idea of what Father Kino did.....and when he did it. There are many, many books about the history of the man, but those two would give you a pretty good perspective on his life in the New World.

There are many historical works on the expulsion as well. One of the best accounts would be "Ducrue's Account of the Expulsion" by, Ernest J. Burrus, S. J.

You might try "The Apaches" by, Donald E. Worcester and "Apache Chronicle: The Story of the People" by, John Upton Terrell. To determine what the Apache presence was in the Superstitions Mountains (historically), "The Apache Indians" by Professor, Gordon C. Baldwin has some good information.

The reason I am suggesting these books, is because your posts do not conform with the history of the Jesuits, the Apache, or Arizona. All three subjects are very well documented and available to anyone interested.

The Apache have their own (unwritten) history, which only recently is being put into print.

The writings of Treasure Hunters and the verbal stories by the same, are best describe as questionable.

Good luck and good hunting,

cj

 

[cactusjumper]

Oroblanco,

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Hi CJ - not to take Mrs Oro's thunder but the Arizona state geology (monthly) newsletter had a couple of articles on it some years ago, yes gold will take on "desert varnish" over time, requiring around a thousand years to build up ONE millimeter of thickness, so....a gold statue would have to be laying exposed to the elements for quite some time to become black in that way.

Oroblanco

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I don't doubt for a minute that is (pretty much) a true statement. I would wonder, after that much time, if the desert varnish is actually growing on the gold, or the dirt and rock on the gold. A layer of caked on dirt would be my first bet. A bit of copper in the ore would be second in line.

I still have my doubts that desert varnish would attach itself to gold....alone. Wouldn't be the first or last time I was wrong.

In any case, the time required takes us outside our time frame.

cj

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=Oroblanco south of the border to Old Mexico yourself, perhaps find the 23 million pesos in silver left in the vault near the church! (I know I am seriously thinking of such a trip....silver is at $13.26 per ounce after all!!! )Oroblanco
**************

Keep yer cottin pickin dowsing hooks off of my SILVER ORO! Beth is too young to be a widow!

Tropical Tramp

 

[Oroblanco]

=Oroblanco south of the border to Old Mexico yourself, perhaps find the 23 million pesos in silver left in the vault near the church! (I know I am seriously thinking of such a trip....silver is at $13.26 per ounce after all!!! Grin Wink)Oroblanco
**************

Keep yer cottin pickin dowsing hooks off of my SILVER ORO! Beth is too young to be a widow!

Tropical Tramp

Well heck Tropical Tramp, we only live once, as that old saying goes, "Do ya want to live forever?" -dodging bullets is not my strong point (age does slow one down a wee bit) but the sight of those barrancas where you found Tayopa is enough to get an old prospector's blood simmering! After all, what are a few bits of flying lead, when there are literally tons of silver involved?

That said, fear not any attempt (on my part) of dowsing the location of those ancient silver veins, I have never tried dowsing for minerals (only water and power lines) and don't expect that I have that ability. My metal detector has proven itself time and again however, if I can get that close to the vein it will ring off true. To be honest, I don't know if I would even try, as I no longer have a good prospecting dog to take along - the old one passed away last summer and the younger one had to be put down not long ago. I rather like having a dog that will let you know if someone or something is poking around your camp at night, stays with you while traveling, and not be aggressive to livestock and people when not necessary. Besides, if I were able to go on such an expedition, I would sure try to meet up with you in person for some pointers and advice. Who knows, if I were to have a particularly good lead to follow up, I might even try to talk you into coming along! Couldn't you use another rich mine or three to rake in more royalty checks?

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

See this sort of stuff is where you lose me.

 

[cactusjumper]

That's cause you don't pack a third eye.

 

[Oroblanco]

 

[Oroblanco]

Sometimes an attempt at levity (comic relief) is mis-interpreted as an insult - we treasure hunters have way too much in common NOT to have a good sense of humor so... I suspect there has been some mis-understanding.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Oroblanco,

Can't disagree with that. Fritter, much like myself, feels the need to express his opinions on the posts that he reads. Seems like just what forums were created for.

I will always answer for myself, if I feel slighted in some way. I expect others will do the same.

I do try to inject a little humor in my retorts. Some get it.....some don't.

Take care,

cj

 

[Oroblanco]

A good laugh is very good medicine indeed! Thanks Cactusjumper!

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote: in fact they would only be between 300 and 450 miles apart , on a still air you could hear the bells echoing in the cayons ...another factor would be the tayopa would have been to the southern most part of the mt range dirrecting the reflected echos to the south ...

Hmm...are you sure about that? The eruption of Krakatoa volcano in Indonesia was heard in Jakarta, over 100 miles away, but that was considered to be the loudest sound in recorded history. I can't imagine a dog barking would carry that distance. I can occasionally hear trains passing some twenty miles away on a clear night, but again that is freight trains - pretty loud machines. There are some odd sonic phenomena, like the strange "shadow effect" at the battle of Perryville KY but it is hard to imagine the sound of a dog barking, carrying more than a few miles at best. As CJ and others have suggested, why not read up on the history of the Jesuits and father Kino, the Apaches in the Superstitions etc? Will it make any difference in the value of the gold, if Kino and the Jesuits are not really involved? It is interesting reading too!

Also, while I do not know the location of the first Tayopa, (la divina trinidad) the one reputedly so close to Guaynopa, we do know Guaynopa is not 300 miles from the Superstitions, don't know the exact distance but would bet it is less than 200. However if it were 100 miles, it would still seem to be much too far for the sound of a dog barking or bell ringing to carry that distance, especially considering the mountainous AND flat terrain between the two locations.

 

[cactusjumper]

Oroblanco,

Very little sound penetrates the interior of the Superstitions from the world outside.

In fact, other than the sounds of planes and helicopters, critters and the other sounds of mother nature, I have never heard anything from outside its fortress walls. I have, like everyone who has spent any time in there, heard the unexplained booming sounds, on occasion. I like to think it's a warning from the tommy-knockers that inhabit all the old mines in the area.

Since none of us were there, the only way we can find out what happened in the era we are interested in, is to read the informed writings of the historians and the contemporaneous accounts of those who were there. When the authors of treasure stories stray from those documented facts, we need to place their writings in the proper category......historical novels.

That would remain true, until someone like Bowman lifts them out of the realm of legend and rewrites known history. That has happened on occasion and, no doubt, will happen again. In this world, history can be changed with the simple turn of a spade.

In Bowman's case, the evidence is overwhelming that his story is not based on any known facts. One wonders why he would not just hike in to the LDM with a few friends, and hike back out the same day. He could then spend his money on a proper expedition.

Many an "all seeing eye" has turned out to be blind to the facts on the ground.

On the other hand, it will be the adventure of a lifetime, and probably worth whatever it costs.

cj

 

[the blindbowman]

quality of evidence : it plays a roll in finding these treasures and being able to clam them and prove they are the real treasure is far harder than most of you know .. some of you long time treasure hunters under stand what i am saying ...

to say you will go in and find it is one thing to go in and take 3or 4 people with you and risk their lives and your own for 26 days is totally diffrent . month and months of planing . i would not carrelessly risk anyones life . life is worth far more than any treasure could ever be ..

and as far as quality of evidence : that is the key . its not always who has the fact from a given book or who talk to who . it could be how you collect the evidence and what is evidence value .. let me explan say the nephew site is the real nephews grave site . we have not touched the site in any way . yet the evidence of that site is pure . next time we will inspect the site with a hand held metal detector to see if any metal is in the site before we even try to inspect the frist few layers of this site ..if we find a skull or any metal the site is than off lemits and we cover it in plastic .to protech its evidence value ...do i want to dig it up and see whats there hell ya , but that would not preserve the quality of the evidence in question ,some of you guys must watch CSI right . its the same game if we are to learn from the very little evidence that remains we must look closer we must look with more than just our eyes ..and the environment rules out some of the equipment before we even try it in those conditions ..

so what do we have . in my case yes i have a few gifts that i can use , but we also have the common sense god gave us .. i stoped in one area and close my eyes and just sat there for a few mins , thats how i found the cave with the spainish arrow . i heard it , not the cave as much as the soft wind blowing threw its openings i could sense it was there ...

before i even looked .the reality is we can hear far more than we try to under stand , sub level sounds are all around us all the time ..

thats how the nephew site was found . the hair on my neck was standing up and i knew something was there in the area . what was a matter of stoping and looking around , i did not know what i was looking for yet i knew something was there . at the time i beleaved the grave site was up on a mt . not where i found it . the clues did in fact relate to its location in the cayon yet no one translated the clues in the common sense of what they had said . even i saw no reason to beleave other wise at the time . yet there it was under a shelving rock in plan sight . and after i looked at the values of where the site was it made full sense and helped add to other evidences yet to found . its much like the spainish arrow and the wagon trail i felt the wagon trail but did not know what it was at the time , some things dont want to be found at frist sight , they fear us and hide like gost around us in plan veiw . i walked right over the wagon trail at one point and never knew it . so quality of evidence may be only one of the things we did to take a good look at .. thats why i find it so importain to take over 12,000 pictures . its not the fact a picture can tell a thousand words , my question is what thousand words will you see from each given location ...could the sites be lost between the lines of sight . and i can only say yes the shadows of the area play a trick on the eyes and mind changeing our over veiw and senses and what we feel and beleave relate to those inputs to our senses ...

we are as much in fault as the conditions of the environment , what we beleave is a conditioning with in us , and what is out there for evidence may be beyond the common under standing of mankind . there is a place there in the mts . i sense it and it is real and is beyondd this world ..odd to both deminssions the spirit world and this reality ... it is in two places and i dont under stand it yet but i will wait and let it come to me . did the spainish deface the indain ruins and take things from that secerd place and hide them in the tunnle or is there other secerd things from times long past in the tunnle and i have yet to see them clearly to know they are from two diffrent places ...

these are trible things and i do sense them they are there ,,i will in all my wisdom protech them as evidence as much as i would of anything in gods creation for nothing was placed apone this earth or in these realitys and deminssions with out the creaters under standing ...

i walk threw thousands of skulls in the tunnles path yet i fear not the death of those who came before me ...
for death is fallen to my faith is the creator and the spirits of my chiffs before me ...

i do not fear what the mts could do to me . any more than i fear my self and what i could do to them ..

to hold the treasures in your hands is as close as reaching down and picking up a hand full of sand and rock and knowing the earth thats lives there in those mts . it is all around you and it is beautfull to the senses ...

i can worship the time they old ones had free in the mts high up in a place now ruins lay . so no i will not touch the ruins i will set out side its mighty walls few see . i will see the ruin of time yet in my eyes i sense the great tribe of its time and past ...i will hear its hiden traped sounds threw my soul and being . . i will step over and dance the thunder dance of rain and wind . i am caller a seer and i can call the winds and rains , the soft snow and the screams of the past . let me and them relive the cryies and the pain togather . let us share the time and hope i can bring new life to those old spirits .yet preserve their beings and secerd places for all others who come beyond our days ..


you make fun of me , i know , i under stand , do you under stand me .....


i am not there for the wealth even with nothing in my hand i am wealthy in my being and this life will come and go ....

can you ste around the ruins and hear them as i do ... if you can not i feel sorry for you ...
what happend to them is a matter of time . the white mans war took more than it gave to them . can we learn from this can we under stand what happend and why . can we asure that it will not happen again .

history is being created around us all the time yet few stop to see it and know it for what it is . can the realityies of the future be changed . will we ever learn from the misteaks made long ago ...


you did not ask me to hunt for the LDM i did not came here to hear storyies .. i came here because this is my path and what you all know is of some value to it self if not others around you . you are all great in your own ways . not my way or yours . the ways of your tribes . if you know or under stand them or even beleave they are still there ..

you can lol at me , i am in aw , i am my self and i am free to come and go as i wish . and some times in life and death respect is all we can wish for yet never forget the gift god gave us all the will to wish at all ...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi: who is laughing? Certainly not me.

Tropical Tramp

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

I am not laughing.

Because I don't know you, and I assume no one else here does either, I am trying to draw you into revealing the true depths of your beliefs and the truth of your comments. Not about the truth of the location of the LDM (don't need that), but about the reality of your going into the Superstition Mountains for 26 days.

Having made that trip many times over a forty-seven year period, I believe I have some knowledge about the dangers and joys of the experience. It was always a hobby. I never let it interfere with the reality of having a full life outside of the legends and lore.

I have a few questions: If you get to your location and find that the entrance to the pit has been blown shut, what will you do? If you find the tunnel, and it is rocked shut, what will you do?

Pictures will not show what is inside. Your request will not be the first for a Treasure Trove Permit and you will not be the first with pictures and a story. You may very well be the first "Shaman", but that may not be something you should use as a tool of persuasion.

Right now, your reality seems to be in your mind. Once in the mountains.....they become the reality. That reality is harsh and dangerous.

Nzhogo nandago (Take care),

Joe Ribaudo

 

[the blindbowman]

" If you find the tunnel, and it is rocked shut,"



what will i do ?

i would go home and plan a expedition with what i needed to get the permits and safely inspect the tunnle ...sticking your head in a hole out in those mts maynot be a good idea, if you know what i mean ! . timbers could be missing from the shaft and something coverd in dust could be standing in the entence about 20 ft back from the opening , with no rope or gun at the time or any way out of the tunnle it would have been totally dum and one hell of a risk of life to enter the tunnle with no way out or any way to defend your self from what could be in the tunnle ... remember the tunnle could very well be booby traped ...

you could fall in the hole and brake a leg and getting out would be a real bitc-...and it could be a 9 ft stright drop ...with no way to stop your self from falling ...

na that could never happen ...lol