The Peralta Stones

[gollum]

Beth & Roy,

We will most likely never know the exact truth of the stone maps (unless someone figures them out or an historical document that mentions them is found).

When Tumlinson first found them, we have the word of a man who helped him clean them off that there were "still little roots growing in the letters". We have Bob Corbin stating that the FBI Agent he spoke to said that the FBI believed they were "over 100 years old (in 1964)." There is also a lot more anecdotal evidence to show that they were historical objects, and not modern frauds.

While it is possible that they were faked in the 1800s and then discarded (Reaves Fraud). To me, it is more likely that they (at one time) led to hidden mines or treasure. I think that they were all discarded at the same spot because either:

1. That is where they fell while the animal they were on ran from the attacking Apache while wiping out the Peralta Family, and laid there from about 1847 until 1949.

2. Whatever they led the way to was all worked out (or emptied), and they were no longer of any value, so, on the way back to Mexico, they were dumped where they were found.

Best-Mike

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

I think "dumped" is a good word.

B

 

[Twisted Fork]

There is, and has been, another explanation for the witch and the cross.

If you notice, the witch has the cross sideways, and there are 'pieces' of something (assumed to be the stones by those who have this idea), and that the witch is actually breaking the stones into pieces.

The errors on the stones cannot be cross-referenced to anything, and they are not slang. (which is what I believe you are referring to). They are mis-spellings. In fact, if you continue to read in Spanish, there are also grammatical errors. Like YO BOY - I, I ?

Peralta's were certainly thought to be further south - Miguel Peralta.

Pedro Peralta is a whole 'nuther animal.

B

The Witch's Equinox is your reference here; not June 21st. He's pointing out the triangles and the shadow casts to the cache sites at dawn, from the big knife. The triangle with the 5 and knife slash is a shadow reference as such. Caches are buried between corners 2 & 3.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Fork,

"The Witch's Equinox is your reference here; not June 21st. He's pointing out the triangles and the shadow casts to the cache sites at dawn, from the big knife. The triangle with the 5 and knife slash is a shadow reference as such. Caches are buried between corners 2 & 3."

I doubt very much that Ted DeGrazia had any of that in mind when he created the Horse/Priest Map.

All,

To date, there has only been one (1) professional examination of the Stone Maps. While there have been many stories of them being "authenticated", not one (1) signed document to that effect is available. The professional examination that was done, granted it was limited in time and scope, drew the unanimous conclusion that the stones were created sometime in "the late 40s".

I have contacted two of the three people who examined the stones, and I am satisfied they were unbiased in their opinions. Those three employees of Desert Archaeology, Inc. are: Research archaeologist Dr. Jenny Adams, Historical archaeologist Dr. Homer Thiel and research geologist Dr. Elizabeth Miksa. All three attached their good names to the opinions, based on their specific fields of expertise.

Many were quick to denigrate their professionalism, because of the limited time spent on the examination. That was not their choice, as the Stone Maps had to be returned to the Museum. In truth, the only thing they needed was their training, experience and a jeweler's loop.

I know from my own experience and research over fifty years, that the maps are true maps. They do lead to specific places in the mountains, including mines and caves. That does not assure that they are authentic treasure maps. Each of the major locations marked on the maps, match up with known treasure stories, and the approximate locations of each one of them. Those stories cover a wide span of time, once again pointing to a modern-day author.

To see the relationship of all of these stories to the Stone Maps, you have to be familiar with them all. Once you tie them all together, a slap to the forehead is called for.

By the way......The point of the "big knife" rests on Parker Pass. Once you do that on a topo, the rest will fall in your lap. Anything else is a pipe dream, IMHO.

As you continue your search, and I know you will, remember that you are walking in my footsteps.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[BenThereDoneThat]

Why would anyone in the late 40's go to all that effort to carve out stone maps that match up to the terrain in the Supers?
Ive heard the theories but no real answers that make sense...........Maybe one day it will be revealed

 

[Oroblanco]

T Parker wrote

Why would anyone in the late 40's go to all that effort to carve out stone maps that match up to the terrain in the Supers?
Ive heard the theories but no real answers that make sense...........Maybe one day it will be revealed

I suspect these folks know the answers.
http://www.donsofarizona.com/

Oroblanco

 

[BenThereDoneThat]

T Parker wrote

Why would anyone in the late 40's go to all that effort to carve out stone maps that match up to the terrain in the Supers?
Ive heard the theories but no real answers that make sense...........Maybe one day it will be revealed

I suspect these folks know the answers.
http://www.donsofarizona.com/

Oroblanco

reading between the lines on that one...........makes it clear

 

[Oroblanco]

Glad you saw amigo, after all their website does say

For more than 65 years, the Dons' goal has been the study, preservation and public presentation of the history, legends and lore -- plus the cultures and grandiose scenery -- of Arizona and the Southwest.


The wording has recently been changed a bit, and it is enlightening to know that some of the former members included such impressive persons as Senator Barry Goldwater, whom helped a now famous author John Griffith Climenson to get his work published.
Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

CJ (Joe), you said:

I doubt very much that Ted DeGrazia had any of that in mind when he created the Horse/Priest Map.

Only a few of us here know what you're referring to with that comment, and since it's written as a statement of fact, I think it's fair to let interested people here know as much as you're comfortable with about how you came to your conclusions.

You know I have a good deal of respect for you, but in the end, your conclusions are still only a theory and one of many. You have more evidence than most to back up your argument, but stating a theory as a fact is still a dangerous thing to do

Personally I think we could have a mighty good discussion here in regards to your adventures, research, discoveries and theories. In fact, it may very well be enough to start a seperate thread. I'll let you decide if you want to go that route or not, but I do think it's worth talking about.

See you soon Joe.

 

[gollum]

Absolutely!

Not one person (to my knowledge) has ever been enriched by the Stone Maps (other than adding to the rich history of Arizona). Alleen Tumlinson got $1200 (but her husband had spent many times that trying to figure out the stones, and she only got that after his death. Clarence O. Mitchell sold some shares of MOEL, Inc, but likely spent more than he made on attorney's fees for the one day trial in 1964.

The only person I know of who has been enriched (other than selling books or guide services) by the Superstitions was Chuck Kenworthy.

IMHO, I firmly believe that the stone maps "at one time" led to great wealth, but whatever wealth they led to was all gone by the time they were abandoned in the desert near Queen Creek. Just my opinion though.

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

I cannot really say, for absolutely sure, that anything has really been "authenticated". That is an assumption based on someone looking at it (who is knowledgeable, to be sure), but, never-the-less, not really "authenticated" - as such.

Of course, that's not to say that there aren't people who are trying to get a hand-written, "yes, I saw it, I examined it, and here are my conclusions" authentication, and they HAVE been looked at by more than one person. (for different reasons).

B

 

[BILL96]

CJ, you seemed to state pretty clearly that you believe the stones were created in the late 40's. Do you dought Tumlinsons's story of finding them in 1949 ? this would seem to be just after they were created.

Bill

 

[Oroblanco]

~Butting in to someone elses question un-invited, BUT....

Bill96 wrote

CJ, you seemed to state pretty clearly that you believe the stones were created in the late 40's. Do you dought Tumlinsons's story of finding them in 1949 ? this would seem to be just after they were created.

HOLA amigo Bill (and everyone) - I realize this was directed to our mutual friend Cactusjumper, but I just have to add my two shekels; I am convinced the stones were created in either the late 1930's or early '40s (based on artistic style, spelling map details) and my choice for whom, is a person who is now deceased so cannot defend himself but I can say that he was seen making face "Spanish" markers in the Superstitions in this very period and used some of these very same symbols in his works. I suspect strongly that this was done with the connivance of some rather "powerful" people and group. I do not doubt Tumlinson's original story of how and where he found them, nor that he truly believed them to be genuine and ancient maps to treasures and/or mines. Tumlinson could have lied about this of course, but it was un-necessary and based on his actions later, he seemed to be sincere and truthful so I tend to trust his story of how he found them.

Not to put words into CJ's mouth, as he is perfectly capable of explaining his theory very well, but it is also quite plausible and if true, could mean that they DO lead to hidden treasures, of a quite different sort from gold bars or sacks of rich gold ore.

Gollum's theory is also quite plausible and possible, and the idea that the treasures had already been removed certainly explains why they would have been simply dumped right near a regularly used trail (and later a state highway).

Maybe we will learn the truth one day, I sure hope so! My apologies for "butting in" to offer opinions asked of someone else.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[BILL96]

Roy,
The subject of these stones has probably been beaten to death but....just the idea of someone going to all the work of carving a treasure map into a combination of several, rather heavy stones and then the idea of someone actually carrying theses heavy beasts around, maybe locating a treasure or treasures and then dumping the stones by the side of the trail!, didn't they have pencils and paper? it seems like paper copies would have been a little easier to transport. And the whole subjust of Tumblinson deciding to take a leak " at that very spot", what are those odds? Anyway this has always been a fasinating mystery to me, i'll probably never know the real truth.
Bill

 

[Oroblanco]

Bill your point about how clumsy, heavy and fragile STONE maps would be as opposed to paper, leather or even WOOD makes the very idea of stone maps seem a very odd and poor choice. However for the person who created them, stone maps would surely be better for his purpose than any paper, leather etc as his purpose is (or was) quite different from what most seem to think.

I accept Tumlinson's version as it makes sense in either of two scenarios - if the stone maps were a hoax, they would be left where someone would find them, like close to a highway pulloff. Alternatively, as Gollum proposes, if the treasure(s) had been removed, the maps were no longer needed so were discarded along the trail, where later a highway was run in. Actually I would think that if they had been used to locate treasures, the logical place for them to be discarded would have been at the last treasure site, not pack them down the trail any distance at all. So on this basis it looks more like "hoax" even if we do not look at anything else.

Treasure hunters always seem to end up being divided into camps when we talk about these Peralta stones, though in one way these stones have shown themselves to be just what Arizona state govt classed them - "curiosities" because they have failed to lead anyone to any treasure, despite being used for years as a map to treasures. They sure are interesting though!
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

In a recent conversation with a staff member of the AZ Mining and Mineral Museum, she classified the Stone Maps as "Crazy".

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

she classified the Stone Maps as "Crazy".

How appropriate! Wish I had thought of that one!

I hope all is well with you amigo, seems you have been quiet a while now so we presume you have been busy lately. Good to hear from you!
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

Hi again Joe,

I don't know if you didn't see my post or if you just would rather not respond to it which I would certainly respect.

Are you able or willing to go into any depth for the folks here as to your conclusions concerning Ted De Grazia and the Stone Maps?

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

My apologies. I did see your question, but have been on vacation in Red River, NM. We followed that up with a few day at Vallecito Lake in Colorado with our mutual friend.

I should have qualified my comments with the words......My opinion somewhere in the body of that post. I believe I have posted my reasoning here, as well as other sites, for that opinion.

I will list the reasons I am aware of, but will need to revisit my notes first. Probably get back to you today.

Hope all is well in your neck of the woods.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Roy,

I also wondered why make treasure maps out of stone rather than wood, parchment, or leather. The only explanation (other than hoaxing), was that the stone maps were not taken away. They were left hidden near whichever trail the family took. That way, nobody in Mexico would have any idea where the mines were.

They would have been picked up on the way North, and redeposited on the way home. Stone would hold up much better than any other material. When the last odf anything valuable was removed, the stones would have been discarded on the way back South -or- when the mule carrying the stone maps broke away during the Apache Attack, it either kicked the saddle loose or was removed by the Apache before eating the mule.

Best-Mike