Video 6 - On Tumlinsons Trail : The Peralta Stone Maps

[releventchair]

I am beginning to believe the whole thing was just another way of "salting a mine."

The witch and horse seem to differ enough in their design and crafting to be worked out separate from the other stones. Or put aside till the others are sorted out.

 

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[Las Vegas Bob]

If I may make a suggestion as to a direction to look for proof that any Spanish might have passed through this area and if so were any of their artifacts found/discovered during the archaeological dig by Statistical Research Inc. as mentioned in the video. Their dig site looked pretty extensive.

 

[Azquester]

Another way of salting a mine?

I was curious.

I thought that the stone maps looked familiar!

The color had me wondering?

I knew they were carved from a cow's salt lick block!

Did you lick those maps Ryan, Frank just to see?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Digger gal >>>>>>>? You make a negative in your camera, develop it, then from the negative you make pictures, as many as you wish.

Sorry if I seem to be nit picking.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,

That is true. I only stated that it was the original picture that Thomas received.

Take care,

Joe

cactusjumper,

Yes, you made a true and factual statement. Some people might take it to extremes though and assume they are looking at the original photo that was taken or the actual negative from that original photo. No one is trying to mislead anyone and I don't believe the photo has been changed other than to redact some background and touch up some fold lines that might be taken for carving on the stone. I do not believe anyone ever attempted to alter any of the actual carvings on the photo. Travis Tumlinson, Robert Tumlinson and Dr. Davis would not have had the technology to do that and I know Dr. Glover certainly did not.

Matthew

 

[Azquester]

Frank, Ryan,

Have you guys explored the old section of El Camino De Viejo that extended beyond the present day road to the west?

If I remember it has at least three more bridges not over queen creek, but you can see the point of Weavers from those bridges and they have hills to the north I believe.

Where Viejo turns and veers south towards new highway 60 it used to go straight that's where the two old bridges are on a dirt road and may have been part of the new highway at one time. It's far removed from Queen Creek but has potential worthy of being investigated further. It's very close to another treasure story location to the west I once scanned for a fellow with my Accurate Locator Runabout.

Maybe for the next Video called 120 for the heat.

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,

Yes, you made a true and factual statement. Some people might take it to extremes though and assume they are looking at the original photo that was taken or the actual negative from that original photo. No one is trying to mislead anyone and I don't believe the photo has been changed other than to redact some background and touch up some fold lines that might be taken for carving on the stone. I do not believe anyone ever attempted to alter any of the actual carvings on the photo. Travis Tumlinson, Robert Tumlinson and Dr. Davis would not have had the technology to do that and I know Dr. Glover certainly did not.

Matthew

Matthew,

I am painfully aware that my posts are often misread. I try to be precise, but often fall short.

I think this may help to explain some of those misconceptions:

"We don’t see things as they are; we see them as we are."

I believe the original writer of that phrase is anonymous, but it has been used by many authors since.

Take care,

Joe

 

[RG1976]

CubFan64 - Yes - we tried to get Greg on camera - but he politely declined. Such a nice guy though - we really enjoyed all the hours we spent over there.

As to the manuscript - to my eyes, as you heard in the video - I find the writing on the manuscript to be remarkably the same. I did notice a minor difference in the up-turned L - however. For me - what I saw was conclusive enough. Perhaps not for other people - and thats okay.

We when are making a "judgement" - we always consider our own abilities. I couldn't write out those block letters even remotely close to have a 5% similarity. I did find the manuscript a MUCH closer match in penmanship than I did on the treasure chest stone, however. In Garry's research comparing all the writing styles, it was mentioned that a lot of the letters had slight changes all across the board.

As to the folder that frank is holding - Frank is a pro at doing research and collecting things - and while I was doing stone map research, he was getting things ready for video 7.

Hal - It seems you have locked yourself on the date 1949 - and with good reason. From reading everything at Greg's (and there is A LOT) - I noticed date fluctuations all over the place. If we could prove, without doubt, that the photo was taken in....say 1942....there would be folks that would discount that imparticular part of the story and cling on to other aspects to believe in.

Like everything with the story, almost nothing is solid. We do have the bumper stones photograph - but for all we know - they could have been created / carved by someone else after a viewing then photographed on the bumper to say "hey, this is what they look like folks". I haven't read anywhere that states with solid proof that the stones on the bumper are the same stones that Tumlinson found. Its not like he is posing next to them! It's just an assumption that we have all made. Given the stark differences in the bumper stones vs. museum stones - its at least a possibility.


What did everyone think of the excavation photos in Florence Junction?

 

[captain1965]

Matthew,

I am painfully aware that my posts are often misread. I try to be precise, but often fall short.

I think this may help to explain some of those misconceptions:

"We don’t see things as they are; we see them as we are."

I believe the original writer of that phrase is anonymous, but it has been used by many authors since.

Take care,

Joe

Well said

 

[RG1976]

Frank, Ryan,

Have you guys explored the old section of El Camino De Viejo that extended beyond the present day road to the west?

If I remember it has at least three more bridges not over queen creek, but you can see the point of Weavers from those bridges and they have hills to the north I believe.

Where Viejo turns and veers south towards new highway 60 it used to go straight that's where the two old bridges are on a dirt road and may have been part of the new highway at one time. It's far removed from Queen Creek but has potential worthy of being investigated further. It's very close to another treasure story location to the west I once scanned for a fellow with my Accurate Locator Runabout.

Maybe for the next Video called 120 for the heat.

Yes Bill - we checked out Camino Viejo in its entirety.

Its possible you may be able to see the very tip-top peak of weaver's from the locations you mentioned - but as the legend goes, he stopped there to photograph weaver's needle. As part of our research, we showed in the video that weaver's needle isn't viewable to cater to even "decent" photography on the old 60, new 60, Camino Viejo or the adolf ruth bridge. You cannot see it until about 7-10 miles away - towards Superior - to make it worthwhile to photograph. Also keep in mind, Tumlinson would have just driven down that road and seen weaver's slowly disappear from view as more of the range blocked it, and he dropped in elevation.

 

[sgtfda]

It's one thing to draw a cover on paper. Quite another with a chisel on stone. Your writing style will adapt to the material unless your very good

 

[somehiker]

Somehiker,

It sounds like you were researching the photocard which, as we now know, was created using an existing photograph. Coxco, if they could, would only be able to tell you when the photocard was ordered and or produced, not when the original photograph was taken. Unless Coxco took it, which, based on the quality, I doubt.

Yes, and I was also told that many camera shops with film developing and printing , used a "mask" of their own design. This was basically a larger negative, as I understand, with the design around the perimeter. The customers negative would be placed on top of the mask and both set into the tray of the enlarger projector. The result was a photo print with the border design.
If we had that first photo (Travis'), there might be a date stamp on the back to indicate when Travis had the photo printed on the card.
Since we do not have Travis' original photo, or the original trail stones for that matter, we have no proof as yet that any funny business was going on at that time.
What we do have is a photo of two stones on the bumper of a 1939 Olds that are different than all of the others.
Thomas Glover may know more.
Other than that, I would suggest you look for info on what Travis was up to, and where he was, in the years between 1939, when that car was brand new and Travis was 29, and the year in which Dr. Davis photographed Travis' photograph. Perhaps you will find a smoking gun somewhere in that time frame.

Regards:SH.

 

[vor]

That blacked out area, if you adjust the contrast and shadow in preview (or similar), appears to be in shadow, perhaps something architectural.

Still curious how the "shadow" doesn't appear to carry through the windshield in a logical manner. No way to tell if a redaction or shadow without the original image. The whole area of the pillar doesn't make sense to me.

 

[releventchair]

also - this is a copy of the newspaper article that I believe a few people were after. It was found at Greg Davis'. I need to go back and get a copy of one that doesn't have "stone maps" written on the top of it - seems some text is missing.

This article speaks of Rafael Grijalba - from Altar Mexico - speaking of a curious relic, found in the Sierra Blanco Mountains of mexico.

A smooth, sqaure shape that has letters and figures on it and supposed to lead to a spanish mine.

Frank posted that article's info prior,sans clipping.(On Apr 17, 2014).

There is gold in the Grijalba family's past IF Santiago's brother was the " Rafael Grijalva - possible brother or cousin. Rafael was known Fai."
http://www.my-familyhistory.com/16422/22301.html

 

[cactusjumper]

Well said

captain,

Thank you.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Quote by somehiker : "If we had that first photo (Travis'), there might be a date stamp on the back to indicate when Travis had the photo printed on the card.
Since we do not have Travis' original photo, or the original trail stones for that matter, we have no proof as yet that any funny business was going on at that time.
What we do have is a photo of two stones on the bumper of a 1939 Olds that are different than all of the others.
Thomas Glover may know more.
Other than that, I would suggest you look for info on what Travis was up to, and where he was, in the years between 1939, when that car was brand new and Travis was 29, and the year in which Dr. Davis photographed Travis' photograph. Perhaps you will find a smoking gun somewhere in that time frame."

Regards:SH.

Here are a few things about the Tumlinson's, Dr. Gene Davis and CO Mitchell that are quite telling if you can properly interpret what transpired.

Travis Tumlinson barely knew his uncle Robert Garland Tumlinson. At about the age of 8 his uncle fled to California where he bounced from job to job and excelled at saloon drinking. He had a wife there and as many as 3 children whom he abandoned and headed to Portland Oregon in the 30's.
Travis Tumlinson married Alleen Salles in 1938 and headed to Portland Oregon. But not to be with his uncle Robert. Travis went because his cousin Joe Tumlinson had lost his job in Texas and moved there and found work.
Robert Tumlinson was the parriah of the family. He was almost 30 years older than Travis, drank heavily and constantly sponged food, money, drink and shelter. Travis had as little to do with Robert as was humanly possible.
Robert Tumlinson was sick and in terrible physical condition. He had all the skill and ability to hike the Superstition Mountains as did Adolph Ruth.
Robert Tumlinson was an opportunist who tried to cash in somehow on his grandfathers reputation and his nephews stone maps. Travis had no part whatsoever in Robert Tumlinson's schemes and tales.
It is said Gene Davis was Robert T's landlord but CO Mitchell says the relationship was much less than that. Davis did take one SHORT trip with Robert to the Superstitions but it was the first and last he cared to take and a lesson well learned. Travis Tumlinson was not a part of that trip or their partnership.
Robert Tumlinson NEVER had possession of the Stone Maps. Ever at any time.
Travis and Robert's disagreements were over money owed Travis by Robert and Robert's general antisocial behavior toward Travis and his wife Alleen.
Dr. Gene Davis barely knew Travis Tumlinson, in fact, he knew so little about him he thought Travis and Robert were brothers even though a 30 year age difference and Robert looked like an aged old man while Travis a young and fit man. CO Mitchell believed Gene Davis never met Travis Tumlinson. Gene would tell many stories, few of which added up. Most stories about Travis and Robert and Gene originate and are told solely by either Robert or Gene.
Travis Tumlinson always had possession of the Stone Maps and upon his death they seamlessly and flawlessly passed to his friend Clarence O. Mitchell.
Clarence Mitchell believes Gene Davis and Robert Tumlinson did not form a partnership and travel to the Superstitions until sometime after 1956, about the time Travis Tumlinson and Clarence Mitchell met and began making inquiries into the mountains themselves.

I should add that much of this information except for the tracking of Robert Tumlinson from Texas to California to Oregon comes directly from CO Mitchells daughters.

Matthew

 

[somehiker]

Travis, Aileen, and Robert drove to a gas station, where they borrowed a hose and washed the trail stones in 1949.
There was a gas station (and diner as I recall) at Florence Junction. The hose was probably connected to a valve on the side of the building, and propping them up on the front bumper like that would make it easy to hose them down. The hood on a 39 Olds is long, with more than enough space for Aileen to park her purse. On top of or just on the other side of the hood ornament. If some of the background was blacked out to eliminate the background from Travis' photo (original or Davis' negative copy) , it was likely because Travis wanted the photo for show and tell, but didn't want the location to be recognized. Another possible photo location which I have considered, would be on the side of the road....opposite the high bank and with the car facing SE. If so, the bridge and Sups in the background would have been visible in the blacked out portion of the photo....hence a Travis way of "cropping". I'm inclined to favor that scenario as an explanation for the blackout, but still believe they may have driven to the gas station/diner/local hangout after examining and arranging the stones in a way that made sense (for the photo op). That was also where a few curious onlookers gathered while they hosed the stones, and one of them remarked that they looked like treasure maps.

 

[cactusjumper]

Frank posted that article's info prior,sans clipping.(On Apr 17, 2014).

There is gold in the Grijalba family's past IF Santiago's brother was the " Rafael Grijalva - possible brother or cousin. Rafael was known Fai."
http://www.my-familyhistory.com/16422/22301.html

RC,

Here is a post of mine from awhile back:

Joe Ribaudo	Post subject: Wrong Place Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:36 pm
Replies: 349 Views: 78216	... is difficult to come by. They do not come easy. As for going "farther back in time", I have pursued this story as far back as Juan de Grijalva in 1518. If you, or anyone else, have gone farther than that......I tip my hat to you, Sir. Working my way to the present, and through the ...

There surely was gold in the family.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Quote by somehiker : "If we had that first photo (Travis'), there might be a date stamp on the back to indicate when Travis had the photo printed on the card.
Since we do not have Travis' original photo, or the original trail stones for that matter, we have no proof as yet that any funny business was going on at that time.
What we do have is a photo of two stones on the bumper of a 1939 Olds that are different than all of the others.
Thomas Glover may know more.
Other than that, I would suggest you look for info on what Travis was up to, and where he was, in the years between 1939, when that car was brand new and Travis was 29, and the year in which Dr. Davis photographed Travis' photograph. Perhaps you will find a smoking gun somewhere in that time frame."

Regards:SH.

Here are a few things about the Tumlinson's, Dr. Gene Davis and CO Mitchell that are quite telling if you can properly interpret what transpired.

Travis Tumlinson barely knew his uncle Robert Garland Tumlinson. At about the age of 8 his uncle fled to California where he bounced from job to job and excelled at saloon drinking. He had a wife there and as many as 3 children whom he abandoned and headed to Portland Oregon in the 30's.
Travis Tumlinson married Alleen Salles in 1938 and headed to Portland Oregon. But not to be with his uncle Robert. Travis went because his cousin Joe Tumlinson had lost his job in Texas and moved there and found work.
Robert Tumlinson was the parriah of the family. He was almost 30 years older than Travis, drank heavily and constantly sponged food, money, drink and shelter. Travis had as little to do with Robert as was humanly possible.
Robert Tumlinson was sick and in terrible physical condition. He had all the skill and ability to hike the Superstition Mountains as did Adolph Ruth.
Robert Tumlinson was an opportunist who tried to cash in somehow on his grandfathers reputation and his nephews stone maps. Travis had no part whatsoever in Robert Tumlinson's schemes and tales.
It is said Gene Davis was Robert T's landlord but CO Mitchell says the relationship was much less than that. Davis did take one SHORT trip with Robert to the Superstitions but it was the first and last he cared to take and a lesson well learned. Travis Tumlinson was not a part of that trip or their partnership.
Robert Tumlinson NEVER had possession of the Stone Maps. Ever at any time.
Travis and Robert's disagreements were over money owed Travis by Robert and Robert's general antisocial behavior toward Travis and his wife Alleen.
Dr. Gene Davis barely knew Travis Tumlinson, in fact, he knew so little about him he thought Travis and Robert were brothers even though a 30 year age difference and Robert looked like an aged old man while Travis a young and fit man. CO Mitchell believed Gene Davis never met Travis Tumlinson. Gene would tell many stories, few of which added up. Most stories about Travis and Robert and Gene originate and are told solely by either Robert or Gene.
Travis Tumlinson always had possession of the Stone Maps and upon his death they seamlessly and flawlessly passed to his friend Clarence O. Mitchell.
Clarence Mitchell believes Gene Davis and Robert Tumlinson did not form a partnership and travel to the Superstitions until sometime after 1956, about the time Travis Tumlinson and Clarence Mitchell met and began making inquiries into the mountains themselves.

Matthew

Matthew Roberts,
That was an amazingly selfless post.

 

[RG1976]

Matthew Roberts - nice to meet you - unsure we've ever corresponded before.

That was a lot of information - where did it come from?