1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

[dg39]

1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

Humbert & Mairet. Movement. I believe this company made watches going back to at least 1730...
Marks inside ..
'DHC,' '3552,' '3362,' 'T15.'

Engraved Alexander M. "unreadable" Now verified as McGillivray.

Present of G. Washington

1791 Treaty-New York
(I do know 1791 was date of treaty with Creek Indian Nation.)

It is key wind, of course...
This watch has been given to be ID..ed
It could end up on national TV.
Any thing you might come up with..Please.
Sorry.these are the only photo's I have at the moment.
Thank You!!
DG

 

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[DCMatt]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

I do know that it is authentic and also know some of it's history. It is from a fantastic small collection of items.
Would anyone venture to offer a reasonable value in their opinion? I placed the item to see if my thoughts could be backed up.They were. Any extra information would be welcome. It is a fantastic experience to hold something that may have been in the hands of a great Native American leader and given by our nations first president..As a Museum Director, I consider this site one of the best.
Keep the information coming!
.. Thank You to All!!
DG

Here is a clip from an 1831 book on the life of George Washington:

Ardently desirous to secure the frontiers from the horrours of Indian warfare the President again attempted to negotiate with the Creeks without committing the dignity of government. He sent Colo Willett a gallant revolutionary officer into their country apparently upon private business but furnished with credentials to be used if he found M'Gillivray disposed for peace. This second mission proved successful M'Gillivray and a number of Creek Chiefs were induced to repair to New York where negotiations were immediately opened and a treaty soon established although the Secretary of East Florida came to New York with a large sum of money under a pretence of purchasing flour but in fact to prevent M'Gillivray from treating.

According to this, Washington did not do the negotiations in person but sent an officer as his representative.

DCMatt

 

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[DCMatt]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

Here is a 1791 letter from Henry Knox regarding expenditures on the Creek chiefs while in New York. You will see the names McGillivray and Colonel Marinus Willett.



DCMatt

 

[DCMatt]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

I found another letter (14 pages) from Knox to Willett which explains his mission to make treaty with the creeks. It is mentioned that he will have a "passport of the president" included in his documents. The letter gives a lot of detail about the efforts. It doesn't mention a watch specifically but it does speak to limits on expenditures and cautions the colonel to not be too extravagant. He got paid $8 a day. Interesting stuff.

http://wardepartmentpapers.org/document.php?id=4160

DCMatt

 

[AlabamaRelic]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

I found this while researching something else. It's a history of Alabama and surrounding areas. It was written in 1851.


http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cmamcrk4/pkt25.html#anchor773372


1790: Thus did Alexander McGillivray at last surrender the Oconee lands, about which so much blood had been shed, and so much negotiation wasted. And for what? For fifteen hundred dollars, to be paid annually to the Creek nation, with also some goods, to be distributed among the Indians, which were then in the warehouses of Augusta. The Federal Government also guaranteed to them their territory free from future encroachments. *

* American State Papers Indian Affairs, vol. 1 pp. 81-82.

Did the proud, the powerful, the shrewd Alexander McGillivray surrender these valuable lands for the pitiful amount already mentioned? Ah!--but the reader must not be too fast. There was a secret treaty between him and Washington, which now for the first time, comes to light in history. It provided that, after two years from date, the commerce of the Creek nation should be carried on through the ports of the United States, and, in the meantime, through the present channels; that the Chiefs of the Ocfuskees, Tookabatchas Tallases, Cowetas, Cussetas, and the Seminole nation, should be paid annually, by the United States, one hundred dollars each, and be furnished with handsome medals; that Alexander McGillivray should be constituted agent of the United States, with the rank of Brigadier General, and the pay of twelve hundred dollars per annum; that the United States should feed, clothe and educate Creek youth at the North, not exceeding four at one time.

Thus Colonel McGillivray secured to himself new honors, and a good salary, by a secret treaty, which left him in a position to return home and intrigue with Spain. Even in the presence of Washington, and his able cabinet, the Chieftain pushed hard for favorable terms, and received them.*

* I am indebted to Colonel John A. Campbell, an eminent lawyer of Mobile, and to Mr. Alfred Hennen, a distinguished member of the New Orleans bar, for placing in my hands papers filed in the District Court of Louisiana containing the letters of Alex. McGillivray to Panton, dated at Little Tallase, September 20, 1788, and August 10, 1789, which have been copied in this History, at length. I also found among this file the "secret treaty," written upon sheep-skin, and signed by Washington, Knox, McGillivray and the Chiefs. A celebrated law-suit brought in this court by Johnson and other claimants, under the heirs of McGillivray vs. the heirs of Panton, was the means of the preservation of these important historical papers.

Aug. 18: Receiving half of his salary in advance, McGillivray left New York, with the Chiefs, for the bright waters of the Alabama. A veil of silence covers the acts of the august Chieftain for several months, and we hear nothing more of him, until he was visited, in the nation, by Lieutenant Heth, who bore with him two thousand nine hundred dollars in gold, the balance due to the Chiefs, agreeably to the treaty. He brought this money, on pack-horses, from New York around by Virginia and East Tennessee. Heth was instructed to remain with McGillivray a long time, and endeavor to get him to carry out the provisions of the treaty, in regard to the restoration of prisoners and negroes, and the running of the line between the Creeks and Georgians.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[lostcauses]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

The watch movement does appear correct for the time period. This item needs to be authenticated and most likely would be worth the cost of doing so.

Great piece of history I believe.
If authenticated, and a good auction house, well who really knows what it would bring.
Thank you for showing it.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

Nice, what is the story behind it did you find it or just getting an Id for someone else? HH
Broken Knee

Amazing piece dg39 .. I would also like to hear the story behind how you acquired this watch Yard sale/flea market/auction?

The OP is a Museum Director and Curator as well as a regular on the History Channel.
I think he stated he is IDing it for someone else.
We must have a good reputation here on this WII forum.
We have some good googlers and researchers as well as a wealth of knowlege.

 

[lostcauses]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

Their appears to be hall marks on the inside of the watch case. Can we get photos of that when you can??

 

[umrgolf]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

Nice, what is the story behind it did you find it or just getting an Id for someone else? HH
Broken Knee

Amazing piece dg39 .. I would also like to hear the story behind how you acquired this watch Yard sale/flea market/auction?

The OP is a Museum Director and Curator as well as a regular on the History Channel.
I think he stated he is IDing it for someone else.
We must have a good reputation here on this WII forum.
We have some good googlers and researchers as well as a wealth of knowlege.

"this watch has been given to be ID'ed" wasn't sure who was doing the giving

 

[dg39]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

First of all, I would like to thank each and every person who helped on this project. The watch owner wishes to remain unknown. I am the Director and Curator of the Louisiana History Museum in Alexandria, La. I make no fee's what so ever for the work I do. I do it out of pure enjoyment. www.louisianahistorymuseum.org
This watch will probably be featured on the History Channel in the near future.
I always like to back up my opinions on historic items. I call on the members of Tnet to do this. I find that each member has a direction they go in that perhaps I might not think of. That adds to the mix and sheds more light on the artifact.
This site and your help are a wealth of information for the serious student or seasoned pro.
Thanks to all!
If you have a specific question, please email me.
P>S> anyone have a value on the watch as just a watch made in the late 1700's?
DG

 

[dg39]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

Their appears to be hall marks on the inside of the watch case. Can we get photos of that when you can??

I list all marks and numbers in the initial post.
DG

 

[Get-the-point]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

The value on this watch is considerably different due to the history of this piece. I found a Christies auction for later models that did not make it to 1k. Since this watch is inscribed with two famous people on it the value on it will be determined by the collectors possibly bidding on it or whatever means of sale(if the person is to sell this)that the owner decides. I would imagine this piece fetching anywhere from 6k and up......If authentic.............................................GTP...................... http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=4314708

 

[lostcauses]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

"anyone have a value on the watch as just a watch made in the late 1700's?"

depends on condition ( does it work?) Any parts missing or broken?

I would say as just a watch, non calender plain case: about 200 to 400 would be realistic. Regrettably it is a simple time only piece and not a complicated watch.
A calender listed with Christie's went for 650.. were as you will find the name with higher prices they are for the more complicated and rarer watches. It will be the history, if not faked, that will be the value of this item.

 

[lostcauses]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

Their appears to be hall marks on the inside of the watch case. Can we get photos of that when you can??

I list all marks and numbers in the initial post.
DG

Identifying who made the case may help in verifying the time period of the case. Hence the need for photographs of the hall marks.

 

[dg39]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

"anyone have a value on the watch as just a watch made in the late 1700's?"

depends on condition ( does it work?) Any parts missing or broken?

I would say as just a watch, non calender plain case: about 200 to 400 would be realistic. Regrettably it is a simple time only piece and not a complicated watch.
A calender listed with Christie's went for 650.. were as you will find the name with higher prices they are for the more complicated and rarer watches. It will be the history, if not faked, that will be the value of this item.


Your acessment sems reasonable.
Thanks DG

 

[Get-the-point]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

Their appears to be hall marks on the inside of the watch case. Can we get photos of that when you can??

I list all marks and numbers in the initial post.
DG

Identifying who made the case may help in verifying the time period of the case. Hence the need for photographs of the hall marks.

All information has been listed. All hallmarks noted in the beginning of this post............

 

[DCMatt]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

I found another letter (14 pages) from Knox to Willett which explains his mission to make treaty with the creeks. It is mentioned that he will have a "passport of the president" included in his documents. The letter gives a lot of detail about the efforts. It doesn't mention a watch specifically but it does speak to limits on expenditures and cautions the colonel to not be too extravagant. He got paid $8 a day. Interesting stuff.

http://wardepartmentpapers.org/document.php?id=4160

DCMatt

I found a bit more to the story.

There is apparently (I can't find it on-line) an article in the August 18, 1791 issue of the "Pennsylvania Packet and Daily Advertiser" that discusses the signing of the treaty by Washington, Jefferson, and Knox on Aug 13th. George Washington himself spoke to the gathering of chiefs, including of course McGillivray, and gave them gifts. Again, no specific mention of a watch but gifts were exchanged.

I would expect that since the watch commemerates the treaty, it would NOT have been presented to McGillivray until the treaty was signed. So it could have come from Washington's hand directly.

DCMatt

 

[5woodluther]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

The Gifts given at the signing were a string of beads and a plug of tobacco to commermorate the new friendship.

My guess is that if there is a per trail to be found on this, it will be in the Washington archives and not online. Also, it may be useful to try and determine the jewelers that Washington may have purchased from.

Another good source may be another TV chanel, and that is the "history detectives" from PBS....Just a thought. If they would take up the case, it would increase the exposure of the item as well as they have the access to archives.

also found this comment about Washington's personal watch:"

Yes, George Washington had pocket watches (he also gave pocket watches away to friends). His friend Gouverneur Morris bought a watch in Paris from Antoine LÈPINE; which was brought to America by Thomas Jefferson.


May also try : NAWCC.org - the national watch and clock collectors museum

"

 

[5woodluther]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

For comparison, here is the movement from one of Washington's personal watches that they believe was made by Humbert & Mairet

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

Its engraved in copperplate script (thick writing on the downstroke and thin on the upstroke) but a bit fancier than the alphabet below.. Similar engraving on my Treasure Coast mystery tag for comparison.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: 1791 Treaty--New York Cased silver watch. Need information.Humbert & Mairet.

Someone scratched it when they cleaned it.