1793 flowing hair chain cent

Digger70pa · Apr 5, 2015

I found this a couple of years ago at my old colonial coin spot. I know its shot but its identifiable. Just posting it here because I haven't before. Thanks for looking & happy hunting TIM.

huntsman53 · Apr 5, 2015

Extremely rare and nice find! Have you considered having it conserved or conserving it yourself? IMHO, it is adviseable to do one of the options! The coin appears to have verdigris underneath the dirt and crustation on it and it needs to be arrested to prevent further damage and decay of the coin. A short bath in Acetone, rinsing with water then patting dry with a soft towel should arrest most or all of the verdigris. Once done, then a long soak in Mineral Oil, Kroll Oil or Extra Virgin Olive Oil will at the least likely loosen some of the crustation and dirt, allowing it to be removed with a green Rose Thorn. When you get to the point that you feel that no more crustation and dirt can be removed, you should then rinse with water, pay dry with a soft towel and then place the coin in a protective 2x2 coin holder. If by conserving the coin and the condition improves to at least an AG-03, then you could be looking at a $4,000+ coin or even much higher depending upon whether it has "AMERICA" or "AMERI" on the Reverse and it is readable.

Frank

baddbluff · Apr 5, 2015

Amazing find no matter what the condition! You are in a very elite club. Congrats!

ironhorse · Apr 6, 2015

If the true value is $4k in ag ... do nothing to it, why risk ruining any value it holds

coinguy*matthew · Apr 6, 2015

If the true value is $4k in ag ... do nothing to it, why risk ruining any value it holds

Because if not stopped the coin will corrode away until its unidentifiable, thus your left with nothing. Dealing with that intense of a verdigris problem is probably best left to capable hands conserving and encapsulation are your best bet even in a details slab this coin is worth it. I posted an example below of what a coin like that could be worth if conserved like Frank stated and hes right on the button at 4K.

1793 s 4 ANACS AG 3 Details Chain Large Cent Coin 1c | eBay

coinguy*matthew · Apr 6, 2015

Its also important to note they left some of the verdigris around the chains, because to remove it would have probably eliminated most of the detail which i assume happened to the flowing hair portrait on the front.

ironhorse · Apr 6, 2015

coinguy*matthew said:
Because if not stopped the coin will corrode away until its unidentifiable, thus your left with nothing. Dealing with that intense of a verdigris problem is probably best left to capable hands conserving and encapsulation are your best bet even in a details slab this coin is worth it. I posted an example below of what a coin like that could be worth if conserved like Frank stated and hes right on the button at 4K.

1793 s 4 ANACS AG 3 Details Chain Large Cent Coin 1c | eBay

I look at it this way, 200 years in the ground left it in the state it's in. Placed in a climate and humidity controlled environment the verdigris may slow or even stabilize and the current state of the coin shall remain; but treating it with acetone, oil and a thorn bush might not! Perhaps leaving it alone and keeping am eye on it would be better than an aggressive approach of chemicals and physical manipulation. It's been out of the ground for a while now and it doesn't appear to be falling apart to me.

enamel7 · Apr 6, 2015

Ironhorse, it's like this. The details they are describing isn't considered cleaning. It's conservation. It's no different than taking a buckle out of the ground. Left untouched the buckle will corrode due to increased oxidation. The same with coins. They will oxide to a point in the ground, but in the air that can increase to the point of being unrecognizable. Better to conserve and stop the damage.

Digger70pa · Apr 6, 2015

I have used oil on it. Its in a flip in my coin albums.

ironhorse · Apr 6, 2015

enamel7 said:
Ironhorse, it's like this. The details they are describing isn't considered cleaning. It's conservation. It's no different than taking a buckle out of the ground. Left untouched the buckle will corrode due to increased oxidation. The same with coins. They will oxide to a point in the ground, but in the air that can increase to the point of being unrecognizable. Better to conserve and stop the damage.

I get it. There's conservation and there's destruction. If overdone you can't call that bullet back after it leaves the barrel, it's done! But a four thousand dollar coin, do it right or don't do it at all

I agree with the point of stopping the corrosion, but I'm sure there's less extreme measures than what's been described here

Iron Patch · Apr 7, 2015

14 years in and I have not seen any dug copper coin of mine change, so I would certainly not be in a panic to do anything. A buckle with iron guts, or a pewter button, yes, but a copper coin, not so much. As for what product, Renaissance wax works extremely well in the sense that it is not greasy, nor does it discolor, and the item basically looks the same when dry. The negative is it can leave a white residue and shows up quite a bit in the pitted areas, but I've found a little scraping with a toothpick does a good job in cleaning it off as a final touch.

As for value, I think with the really low grades (especially when dug) it would be tough to get book value because too many people would be worried about buying a corroded fake, and only the finder knows for sure where it was dug, and the probability of it being genuine.

Definitely not one I would sell, and I actually think one day we will see one dug in our part of Canada. There had to be a few make it here!

Digger70pa · Apr 7, 2015

Its the real deal IP. Your right about people being skeptical. As rare as it is & all. The spot that it came from has produced lots of King George coppers large cents reales & relics. Its a good place to camp. We find Indian points in our dig holes. There were a complex of inns there on the Forbes road here in Cumberland county PA. Great water from a spring. Goerge Washington camped his troops there the first night out from Carlisle PA. Its not for sale. I don't get rid of anything I dig. Thanks for the replies & don't get so testy with each other. TIM

coinguy*matthew · Apr 7, 2015

14 years in and I have not seen any dug copper coin of mine change, so I would certainly not be in a panic to do anything. A buckle with iron guts, or a pewter button, yes, but a copper coin, not so much. As for what product, Renaissance wax works extremely well in the sense that it is not greasy, nor does it discolor, and the item basically looks the same when dry. The negative is it can leave a white residue and shows up quite a bit in the pitted areas, but I've found a little scraping with a toothpick does a good job in cleaning it off as a final touch.

As for value, I think with the really low grades (especially when dug) it would be tough to get book value because too many people would be worried about buying a corroded fake, and only the finder knows for sure where it was dug, and the probability of it being genuine.

Definitely not one I would sell, and I actually think one day we will see one dug in our part of Canada. There had to be a few make it here!

Exactly you make my point for me its not really about the coin corroding over night that would take probably thousands of years, Its more about adding legitimacy to a prospective buyer or even when sharing. This coin without being certified as genuine will always have the air of skepticism, I wouldn't even consider buying one unless it was already slabbed like you said just too much of a risk.

Its the real deal IP. Your right about people being skeptical. As rare as it is & all. The spot that it came from has produced lots of King George coppers large cents reales & relics. Its a good place to camp. We find Indian points in our dig holes. There were a complex of inns there on the Forbes road here in Cumberland county PA. Great water from a spring. Goerge Washington camped his troops there the first night out from Carlisle PA. Its not for sale. I don't get rid of anything I dig. Thanks for the replies & don't get so testy with each other. TIM

I can understand your attachment to the coin i certainly have pieces i intend not to sell but on the flip side of the coin (pun intended) you will have to prepare it for who ever you intend to leave it to and have the piece of mind they wont get taken advantage of.

Digger70pa · Apr 7, 2015

Well what do you coin guys advise me to do with it? Send it out & get looked at? I will because its the real deal. I have capped cents that I've dug also. My chain cent doesn't have anything on the edge. I've read its a mint error. Just saying guys. Should I send it to be looked at by the a numismatists somewhere? Thanks Tim

Digger70pa · Apr 7, 2015

I've found around a hundred coppers where I dug it at. :laughing7:

Digger70pa · Apr 7, 2015

I have them all guys.

huntsman53 · Apr 7, 2015

Digger70pa said:
Well what do you coin guys advise me to do with it? Send it out & get looked at? I will because its the real deal. I have capped cents that I've dug also. My chain cent doesn't have anything on the edge. I've read its a mint error. Just saying guys. Should I send it to be looked at by the a numismatists somewhere? Thanks Tim

If you are not comfortable in attempting to clean and conserve the coin, then it would be best left to the professionals! If you send the coin to NCS, they will conserve it, then it can be sent over to NGC (same Company just different departments and services) for certification, grading and definitely ask for attribution for the Variety. I am unsure as to whether there is a known Variety of a 1793 Flowing Hair "Chain" Cent without the "bars and vines with leaves" on the edge as I do not have the reference books on these rare coins nor can I readily find anything online. NGC should be up on all of the different Varieties for the 1793 Flowing Hair "Chain" Cent but if not, they will likely consult some experts. If in fact, it is missing the "bars and vines with leaves" on the edge and if it happened to be an "AMERI." Variety or the one with periods after "AMERICA" and I believe "STATES", then you could have a coin that is worth a lot more than $4,000. In any case, without some conservation and cleaning, you will likely never know which Variety it is and how valuable it actually is or could be!

Frank