2008 EXPEDITION: YAMASH-I-T-A ( Japanese) TREASURE

[jeff of pa]

a reminder. This is a Treasure Hunting Forum.

If you don't believe in treasures.
Facebookl needs you. Not us

 

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[renantagum30]

i just said that they will be throwing away their money because they cannot get it. only the japanese people who have maps can get it.

i am just saying that for those who say that the yamashita treasure is fake, they are totally wrong. there is that actually exist, only that only the japanese people or any other people who have the maps or who knows the design can get it. i did not contradict myself.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... If you don't believe in treasures....

"Treasures". If that is to imply "it's there", then yes I believe. But if it's not there , then I (and anyone, for that matter) "won't believe". We believe in things that are "odds on favorites". Not things that are not "odds on favorites". When the evidence points to a treasure, then ... by all means ... believe

 

[renantagum30]

oh i forgot to mention. the sliding vault design is prevalent in mindanao. my friends in luzon told me, they have not encountered a single cement vault in luzon and visayas. it makes me think there is no sliding cement in luzon or visayas, only in davao city.

i believe in treasure sir. that is why i am debunking all those who dont believe that they exist. only that it is hard or next to impossible to recover it. i am just voicing out my opinion here.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... that is why i am discouraging all would be hunters and financiers to stop wasting your youth or the remaining years of your life, pursuing the fabled yamashita treasure. its not worth it. ....

....
i believe in treasure sir. that is why i am debunking all those who dont believe that they exist. only that it is hard or next to impossible to recover it. i am just voicing out my opinion here.

To clarify what you are saying: The reason it is a waste, is because of the efficiency of the boobie-trap flood systems, Right ? And the depth and difficulty of bringing up, etc..... It's not a "waste" for the reason of not-being-there in the first place. Right ?

 

[renantagum30]

ok sir. i dont want any hostile arguments. i will just delete my comments.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... they are bound to throw their money for nothing.

But this isn't making sense. If you are certain it exists, then ....... seems like a great investment. And is not "throwing your money away" . eh ? Especially given the supposed size of the treasure, eh ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

ok sir. i dont want any hostile arguments.....

Not "hostile" in the slightest. Unless analyzing the logic of a train-of-statements is defined as "hostile" ? I am truly intrigued by the ability of a treasure legend to carry the day logically. And if something is self-imploding (or circular logic, etc...), then it's not at all "hostile" to point that out. That's part of the discussion purpose of forums to discuss the likeliness of treasure. Yes ? No ?

And when someone puts out a proposal (eg.: "what do you all think of this treasure?" or "what's the best metal detector?"), then to hear something to the contrary (ie.: a more likely scenario or an opinion of a weakness of a detector) is a possible scenario in the comments you might receive. Ie.: if all you got was affirmative "yes's" (to your theories, to your machine under consideration, etc...), then there would never be "balanced comment". No one would ever be exposed to alternative views.

 

[miboje]

a reminder. This is a Treasure Hunting Forum.

If you don't believe in treasures.
Facebookl needs you. Not us

Thank you very much for that reminder, Jeff.

 

[renantagum30]

as i have said, when it is next to impossible to recover it, what are your odds? 1 in every 1,000,000? is that not throwing your money away? you dont even know if you have that 1/1000000 chance. you can prove there is a cement vault there. but recovering it is another thing. just try to ask yamazues.

 

[renantagum30]

To clarify what you are saying: The reason it is a waste, is because of the efficiency of the boobie-trap flood systems, Right ? YES. YOU ADD THE VACUUM AND THE TUNNEL SYSTEM WHERE THE CEMENT VAULTS ARE SUPPOSED TO SLIDE

And the depth and difficulty of bringing up, etc..... DEPTH IS NOT A PROBLEM. ITS NEVER DEEP ANYWAY

It's not a "waste" for the reason of not-being-there in the first place. Right ?YES.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Right ? YES. YOU ADD THE VACUUM AND THE TUNNEL SYSTEM WHERE THE CEMENT VAULTS ARE SUPPOSED TO SLIDE....

You have answered my questions. Thankyou.

Since the fact of the treasure is certain, then: Given the right amount of heavy equipment to over-come the obstacles, the treasure should be attainable. Just need to overcome the cement, vaccums, slides, etc...

Have you seen the Oak Island efforts ? Eeerily similar claims, efforts, etc....

 

[renantagum30]

TO be honest sir, i have not heard of the oak island efforts. but it makes me curious. i will just search the internet.

the sliding design are not unique to the Philippines. the japanese must have copied it from egyptians (sliding treasure using sand) ( i am just guessing here) and i dont know from where in the same manner that the japanese also copied ship designs from britain ( i just read it about the ship design, but i dont know if it is true).



its not true that the Japanese went here for the first time during the 1942 war and haphazardly or hurriedly buried their treasure without any sliding designs or boobie traps. they were here even as early as 1910, leasing several thousands of hectares of tracts of land, particularly in Mindanao and in Davao City, even establishing a little Tokyo here in Mintal, Davao City. their plantations were everywhere in Region 11 and neighboring regions. there were many of them working on the thousands of hectares of plantation , with the help of Filipino workers. but having controlled the operations of the plantation, they can control whatever they are doing on the said lands presumably by ordering Filipino workers not to report on days and months when planting Abaca, and other crops is already over. during the time when there is no more planting, the plantation is already left to themselves. which leads us to the conclusion that they have prepared the area for hiding treasures for a very long time. I met a very wealthy and landed owner from Davao City, and she is already the daughter of the owner of the lands from whom the japanese leased their lands. she told me everything about the japanese operations, only in so far her father told him. it is a hearsay but close to the truth hearsay , coming from his father. when the war broke out, they escaped from Davao City to Ilo-ilo city where nobody knows about their identity. they heard that some of the workers of the said plantations were in fact Japanese officers of the Imperial Army. her father also survived the war.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

TO be honest sir, i have not heard of the oak island efforts. but it makes me curious. i will just search the internet......

Ok. Just google "oak island" + "treasure", and you will scores of hits, wiki article, etc... It has the same flavor of your slants on (beliefs about) this supposed Yamashita treasure. Here's the similarity:

No matter HOW deep they dig on that island, and continue to find nothing, you'll notice that it NEVER means "there is not treasure". They will just surmise : "Ah it must be a little the left", or "a little more to the right", or "a little deeper", etc... And ANY impediment or difficulty they encounter "must be boobie-traps". Like if water intrudes and fills the holes, they DON'T think it's just the natural water table doing what nature automatically does (they're just a stone's throw from the ocean after all) Nnneeeoooo: They surmise it's a contrived ingenious flooding system to "keep people away from the treasure".

And it gotten to the point of being comical. You can never convince the believers it's not there. Failure after failure after failure (empty holes with no treasure) doesn't ever lend to the conclusion that "nothing is there". It's always "deeper" or whatever.

So too with Yamashita: Nothing's ever been found (and the Roxas things has "more plausible explanations", as does the "Marcos" thing). Yet despite all the efforts, with nothing found, you can never put the legend to rest.

 

[renantagum30]

i never made up stories trying to convince people there is such a yamashita treasure. all i did was tell about my experiences, that yamazues was right, that all some people do is to make funny retort on people who shared their real life experiences. i am not even here convincing others to engage in treasure hunting . i was not a digger but i was a financier of various sites before. i had rotary drilling machines, percussion drilling machines . all i did was share my real experiences and debunk those who claim that such treasure did not exist.

if you cannot find the needle you lost in the middle of the haystack, it does not mean the needle that you lost does not exist. if we cannot recover the cement vault that we encountered in various sites because it slided and just vanished before our own two eyes, it does not mean that the cement vault that we just saw does not exist. we saw it before our own two eyes in various occasions, we heard and felt the mini earthquake and the sounds of the falling metal bars a split second after.

its true that yamashita treasure is only a legend to most of us because we have not found any concrete proof that such gold exist, that we have not touch any gold bars of the yamashita treasure. it is true that you need an actual proof of gold bars to debunk the claim that yamashita treasure is only a myth. i cannot do that because i have found none. and because i have found none, i cannot prove it that it did exist. i am just here trying to convince people to get the yamashita treasure bug out of their system. it could get them bankrupt. it is next to impossible of getting it. only the japanese or people who knows the design of how to get it , can actually recover it.

 

[renantagum30]

in my opinion , it does exist. but i cannot present any evidence.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

You are a very fair conversationalist. And I hope to be the same.

i never made up stories trying to convince people there is such a yamashita treasure. all i did was tell about my experiences....

I have no doubt that believers in treasure legends are not "making up stories". I believe they are very sincere in their beliefs (and not necessarily "looking for investors" or some-such-scam. Thus: I believe the sincerity of your stance.

....to make funny retort on people who shared their real life experiences....

I do not mean to "make fun". If I write "dramatically" , it is only to make a point. To get the reader to consider the logical connection of dots, once a certain line-of-reasoning is followed. To show that it does not "logically follow".

.... i am not even here convincing others to engage in treasure hunting ....

Perhaps. Sure. But on the other hand you are engaging in a public forum where the question/topic is: "Does a treasure necessarily exist ?" And to that extent, you are putting for evidence that it exists. And that is open to cross-examination.

.... if you cannot find the needle you lost in the middle of the haystack, it does not mean the needle that you lost does not exist.... .

Here is the logical fallacy I see in this statement: The statement assumes that a "needles was lost in the haystack". If this premise is true, then yes, everything else you're saying logically follows. But if there is no "needle in the haystack", then the illustration falls apart. So to apply it to Yamashita: It is merely presuming your own starting point, from the git-go: That there is, of necessity, a treasure (ie: "the needle"). But who says ? Since when ?

.... if we cannot recover the cement vault that we encountered in various sites because it slided and just vanished before our own two eyes, it does not mean that the cement vault that we just saw does not exist. we saw it before our own two eyes in various occasions, we heard and felt the mini earthquake and the sounds of the falling metal bars a split second after.....

Have you considered the possibility that whatever "cement thing" it was that you found, was simply something else, and not treasure ?

Let me give you the following true story: I knew a guy who was stationed at Clark Airforce Base during the Vietnam conflict. Eg.: mid 1960's. He was just a young 20-something recruit stationed at the USA base there. While there, he got to talking to locals, and heard about the legend. But he had something that the locals didn't have: ACCESS TO MILITARY MINE DETECTORS ! At that time, in the mid 1960s, such electronics were not available to the local population (Heck , metal detecting as a hobby was still in its infancy at the time !). And the mine detectors were pretty primitive (compared to today's metal detectors). None-the-less, my friend , since he was military, could get hold of one to use in his off-time.

He studied the final days of the Japanese retreat around Clark airforce base, studied where Yamashitas last know positions, etc... He and another american GI went out into the jungles certain they were going to get rich finding the treasure Sure enough, at the correct places they'd researched, he got a big signal with the detector ! Digging down, they hit solid rebar-reinforced concrete. Ie.: a Steel drum , the size of a pillbox or giant closet, encased in concrete !

They spent all day digging around the sides to define the giant square shape of the object. And pried and pried, dug and dug, but ........ to no avail. This object was just too big to budge by hand power and simple shovels. Yet they could tap on the top of it, and discern that it was a hollow cavity underneath! BINGO ! It must be the treasure, right ?

So they returned to Clark airforce base and told several other GI's of their discovery. Soon, 4 or 5 guys were back out in the jungle to "get this treasure". They brought with them a welder with an acetylene cutting torch tools. They spent the better part of a day cutting a hole into the top of this man-made metal and concrete bunker style pill-box thing.

Finally, they got a square cut, such that they could peel back a metal flap, to look inside. And their reward was: (drum roll)........ A WWII LATRINE ! And boy did it stink after 20+ yrs. !!

So you see ? There can be other "more plausible" explanations for the things you bumped into.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Post Script: the finding of the concrete and steel WWII latrine did not dissuade my friend from continuing to search for the supposed treasure. They checked out the mine detector on subsequent weekends, scanning the jungle. Got another big "beep". Dug down and found a wooden crate filled with WWII Thompson sub-machine guns ! Apparently left or abandoned in the haste-of-war. The guns were still wrapped in original grease-rags, having apparently just arrived to the battle front. I forget how many machine guns were there.

I asked my friend "what did you do with them?". He said "Like total idiots, we took them back to the air force base and gave them to the MPs" . He said that in retrospect, no doubt, the MP's probably took them home for souvineers.

My friend , then in his 60s at the time he told me this story (late 1990s or early 2000s) said that the then-current price for a mint condition Thomspon submachine gun was staggering. He kicks himself to this day for not simply keeping them for himself. But when you're a 20-ish year old recruit in the mid 1960s, I guess no one could anticipate those things.

 

[renantagum30]

as i have said, i dont have any proof of the existence of the yamashita treasure.

when you find yamashita treasure based on metal detector, you are exactly on the spot where the japanese would like you to go, their decoy location and their decoy spot. the spirit of the japanese engineer who designed the japanese burial system and who have already died will laugh their ass off at you for being fooled by them. japanese buried treasures are designed to be out of reach by metal detectors. there are anti detector materials being laden on top of the real treasure vaults and there are a lot of metal distractions scattered within the surroundings of the treasure vault. is this anti detector concept and the prohibition of using metal detector a common concept followed by ordinary Filipino treasure hunters?

decoy spot and sliding cement vault are two different thing. their first objective is for everybody who had a metal detector to be led to the decoy spot. and you dig there thinking that you have already made it. finding a cement vault and whola, you cannot even find an item there. nothing. just a cement vault and it will not slide being a decoy location.

the real treasure vault, if accidentally discovered even without using a metal detector , will still slide and disappear because of engineering and sliding design. it is bound to slide on a tunnel system 3 timess. the more you go after it, it will slide further to the 2nd spot, and if you go after it at the 2nd spot location, the vault will slide into the 3rd spot. by the 3rd spot, you are already dealing with an underground aquifer. it is already thrown into an aquifer where there is moving water. we know how to find aquifers (not watersheds) and underground rivers/streams (cracks on the ground that are water bearing) based on various years of experience and training.

i am not here to convince others. i am just saying the information told by yamasues are correct. and some keyboard warriors here are good at dispelling the notion that all of us Filipinos are here lying on this forum, looking for financiers by convincing others that yamashita treasure exist. hey, i am not here looking for financing. in fact, i did all the financing of almost 30 sites. i am still a well off guy but i already retired from treasure hunting. i am not even digging anymore as my friend who knows how to locate the said treasure vaults also left for abroad as our projects been total failures . I also went bankrupt in the sense that i cannot afford to engage in this expensive hobby of financing sites anymore. i am here to read treasure hunting stories.

the treasure vaults we saw might just be cement according to Tom CA. but when it tilts on one side if there are two or more people standing on one side and if they transfer to the other side, it will also tilt to another direction like a see-saw, what does that tell you? an ordinary cement layer? when a cement vault vanishes before your own eyes, creating a mini earthquake within 20 feet radius and you can hear the sounds of various heavy metals falling on top of each other, oh it could just be an ordinary cement layer. when a backhoe lifts the cement vault to lift it up and suddenly the backhoe falls on the pit because the cement vault slided and vanished leaving the backhoe behind the pit. what does that tell you? still an ordinary cement layer?

is this sliding cement vault commonly experienced by Pinoy treasure hunters who are using metal detectors?

i am just saying there is a big possibility that the cement vaults we encountered in various sites could have been not an ordinary cement. they could be septic tanks meticulously made by the japanese and designed to slide on a tunnel system. but i dont believe they could be septic tanks. no amount of feces or **** of the japanese hidden in a cement vault could have created a mini earthquake within 20 feet radius , and i have not known of any feces of japanese that could sound like heavy metals falling on top of each other. even if the said feces hardened, it would not sound like a heavy metal . i believe the vanishing cement vault that we have encountered could have been something more (not septic tanks). it could be a treasure vault, we believe. but we also concede that since we have not recovered anything, it could just be ordinary cement septic tanks with their feces hidden inside it. or it could be anything aside from a treasure vault. anything is possible.

we have our own individual experiences. some of the pinoys here are just ordinary treasure hunters, using jackhammers and chisels and metal detectors. i myself have my own experiences . but please do not generalize all Filipinos who are here. we do not have the same experiences.

i am not even digging anymore. i am just sharing my experience to jive with what yamasuzes has experienced. i just shared my experience and attest that what yamasues had experienced , i also experienced but we do not know how to read codes. i do not even know how my friend locate the treasure vaults. it is his proprietary asset that he did not share it to me.

no. 1 rule in looking for yamashita treasure is, do not use metal detectors. you will make a joke out of yourself just what the friend of Tom CA had experienced. japanese engineers who designed the japanese burial system are much more smarter than ordinary engineers and keyboard warriors and keyboard treasure hunters.

ohhh.. i expect metal detectorist to discredit me again. but i maintain that not all treasures are bound to be located by metal detectors.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... ohhh.. i expect metal detectorist to discredit me again......

No more so than your replying to my content is "discrediting" me or my content. It's just pro & con discussion.

I very much am interested in the mindset psychology of each view. The psychology of how people respond when shown other explanations. That's what I'm intrigued with.

Because I too "chased treasures" (Mexico in my case) of stories that were being told to me. That sounded sseeeoooo good. But later, after zero results (much like yourself), I began to question the very stories themselves . Began to re-quiz my guides as to their sources, their reasons for believing them to be true, etc... And began to see that I too had merely been wrapped up in treasure fever . And had not done my critical questioning homework BEFORE the hunt. So that I could have saved 3 weeks of my life, driving thousands of miles. Hence now my fascination with the psychology of how the human mind acts when it comes to treasure

as i have said, i dont have any proof of the existence of the yamashita treasure.....

True. Nor do I have concrete "dis" proof But while you might not have proof of the existence, yet it is clear from your writings that you very much believe there is Yamashita treasure(s) to be found. Right ?

. ...when you find yamashita treasure based on metal detector, you are exactly on the spot where the japanese would like you to go, their decoy location and their decoy spot. the spirit of the japanese engineer who designed the japanese burial system and who have already died will laugh their ass off at you for being fooled by them......

As for false targets that gave a beep to the metal detector: Is it not possible that it is random metal targets? And not "decoys" placed to fool future metal detectors ? I mean, after all: Metal debris (junk, building material, etc...) is all over the planet everywhere. Why then is metal that we dig up (that turns out not to be the treasure) necessarily "decoy" material ? Perhaps it just routinely randomly occurring discarded metal ?

This is a perfect example of the treasure fever psychology: a) the believer finds junk and thinks "aha ! a decoy target!", while b) the skeptic finds junk and thinks: "aha, junk"

.... japanese buried treasures are designed to be out of reach by metal detectors....

Another great example: The skeptic gets zero signal from his metal detector and thinks: "There's no metal (or treasures, etc...) here". While the believer gets zero signals from his metal detector and thinks "The treasure is most certainly here, but it's just deeper beyond the reach of the detector". See ? At no point is the believer to be dissuaded. It's just deeper.

That's what's gone on at Oak Island after all : They go 50 ft., well then it must be 70 ft. So they go 70, well then it must be 100 ft, and so forth. At no point is the treasure not there. That is not an option to conclude.

....the real treasure vault, if accidentally discovered even without using a metal detector , will still slide and disappear because of engineering and sliding design. it is bound to slide on a tunnel system 3 timess. the more you go after it, it will slide further to the 2nd spot, and if you go after it at the 2nd spot location, the vault will slide into the 3rd spot. by the 3rd spot, you are already dealing with an underground aquifer. it is already thrown into an aquifer where there is moving water. we know how to find aquifers (not watersheds) and underground rivers/streams (cracks on the ground that are water bearing) based on various years of experience and training.....

This is one way to explain when a team comes up with no treasure. That the treasure was cleverly engineered to disappear when/if someone later attempted to recover it. This level of forethought and engineering is entirely possible. However, to me, the *more plausible* explanation is: Nothing was there in the first place. Ask yourself if this alternate explantion isn't more of the odds-on-favorite ?

.... dispelling the notion that all of us Filipinos are here lying on this forum, looking for financiers by convincing others that yamashita treasure exist. hey, i am not here looking for financing......

I have already told you that I believe your sincerity. I know you are not looking for financing. That is not in question.

..., it could just be ordinary cement septic tanks with their feces hidden inside it.....

renantagum, this is what's known as "getting lost in the example" I gave, as an example, my friend who ... while searching for the yamashita treasure, found a septic tank instead. That was just an example of something that could be found (that, in their mind's eyes, seemed at first like a giant treasure chamber). And, of course, turned out to be something else.

The only reason I gave you that example, was NOT to imply that "the things you found were likely to be septic tanks". Instead the reason I gave that example, was to show that things we find could be other things.

Naturally you could come up with 10 reasons why your particular target was NOT a "septic tank". Of course. But that was not the point . It was only an example. To illustrate how there *could* be other explanations aside from "treasure". I have utterly no idea what it was you found. If I were there, to have seen it, perhaps I could have come up with an explanation.