A Test for Sandsted

[COUNTRY GIRL]

http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/betz/betz_toc.html

Read.

I should try to prove how it works? Me? A non-dowser? Okay, fine, I tried it once and it didn't work, so you aren't really dowsing because I say you're not.

Ah, yes, the "scientific" approach.

Hey, what can I say? I actually did go out to a site that has produced coins and artifacts, and walked around with the rods for a good hour trying to get some reaction out of them, with no success. Since Art and Dell kept trying to tell me to get my own proof, so I went out and did and I can now say with certainty that dowsing does not work to locate treasure.

Of course, I told them that the other dowsers here would argue with my findings, and I was right.

So the rods did not work for you, or you found no treasure with them? Do you think dowsing works to find utilities and or water? Did you try to find water or utilities? Just curious, I didn't know you had tried it.

 

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[Oroblanco]

Might want to check up on those police psychics... their claims are usually way overblown.

I suggest that YOU check up on the subject, your conclusion is incorrect.

I did not say card tests done with "magicians" - that is card TRICKS. An important difference you must be aware of. ESP, the ability to obtain information by means which are not explained by "normal" senses, does exist. If you want to live in a world of denial, that it (ESP) does not exist, that science knows all and anything that does not fit with that is pure bunk, that is your prerogative. However you gain nothing by arguing about it, any more than the dowsers here gain anything by arguing with you. Dowsing is something that has to be seen to be believed, so no amount of debate in a forum is going to convince the skeptic it works, nor a dowser that what they have seen with their own eyes, was false. This debate is an exercise in mutual futility. Good luck with your test, hope you have fun with it.

Oroblanco

 

[ClonedSIM]

http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/betz/betz_toc.html

Read.

I should try to prove how it works? Me? A non-dowser? Okay, fine, I tried it once and it didn't work, so you aren't really dowsing because I say you're not.

Ah, yes, the "scientific" approach.

Oroblanco,
I'm sure you read this report thoroughly and caught where the people utilizing dowsing to locate sub-surface water first used traditional methods (topographic and geomorphological indications, as well as the application of geoelectrical soundings) before choosing their area to dowse, and then the results of the dowsing were a bit muddled. I don't see where they ever actually classified which wells, found by dowsing, produced potable drinking water, which they cited, was their ultimate goal.

 

[Oroblanco]

Well af1733 you surprise me, that you actually read some of the report. Based on some of your replies, such as including the theme from the Beverly Hillbillies television show, I would have expected you to just ignore it. Several tables are on: http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/betz/3.html

The tests in Sinai were interesting, results listed: http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/betz/10.html#sinai

(For the reader who does not wish to read the article) quote
" Meanwhile, 12 of the 15 sites have been explored. In view of the difficult conditions the provisionally available results are very impressive and had not been expected at all: right away, in 10 cases the attained yield amounted to 30 l/min, without exceeding the predicted drilling depth. It might be hoped that the ongoing well construction increases the initial yield numbers. Only two holes were dry; for given reasons, it has yet to be checked whether exceedingly large quantities of bentonite, used in conjunction with the applied drilling method, might have clogged the small water influx from narrow weathered fissures.

" end quote

Another direct quote: It should be kept in mind that only drinking water counted as success. A too high percentage of salt, iron, nitrate, nitrogen and fluorides would have led to the abandonment of the borehole. end quote


A side note here for the previous post, on whether psychics are enlisted to aid police successfully:

Psychic helps B.C. police find hiker's body
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/01/27/psychic-body050127.html

Psychic helps probe plot to kill Australian PM
http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=546682006

A television series on psychics helping police (numerous cases):
http://www.courttv.com/onair/shows/psychic_detectives/

Why do FBI agents, detectives, and DA investigators from all over the country contact Pam Coronado for assistance with their toughest cases?
http://www.pamcoronado.com/index.htm

Site with dissertation on various studies done on the phenomenon of ESP:
http://www.mondovista.com/ESP1.html

To repeat myself (what fun) there is nothing we can post here that is going to change the minds of either the skeptic or the dowser. Good luck with the test.

Oroblanco

 

[ClonedSIM]

Oh no, I read the report, alright. I actually read everything that's posted, but a lot of it doesn't even warrant a reply.
The results of the Sinai test were a lot more impressive actually, given that they didn't have the same geographic clues to work with. But I have to be honest, because they began the dowsing in the best possible area to find water according to previous data, and taking into account the last test where they actually began the testing with accepted water-location methods, in my mind somewhat tainted the Sinai results.

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you for the forthright reply af1733 - one of the key problems here in these dowsing threads is the definition of what dowsing is, and can or cannot do. I am convinced it works for water (and electrical lines) but not convinced that it works for finding treasures. There are some extraordinary claims made as to abilities in dowsing, which are difficult to believe; I think in these cases the claim(s) have to be seen to be believed. I am impressed that you read all of Betz's article too - it is quite long as articles go.

Some info, which will not likely change any minds but perhaps of interest:


Despite its apparent usefulness, churchmen and scientists have done their best to stamp out divining. The Church regards it as an abomination and the work of the Devil. Many scientists treat it with equal contempt and look upon it as little more than a hoax practiced on the feeble minded. But try as they might, scientists have never managed to prove that it is a trick, largely because people have continued to make vast fortunes by apparently using it to successfully discover gold, gems and oil. Scientists may dismiss divining as a con, but those who make money from it are apt to believe in it.

Oilmen, in particular, seem to have a passion for dowsing, probably because finding oil remains something of a black art - no matter how sophisticated the technology you use to locate it. And the industry seems to have profited vastly from dowsing.

In 1910, diviners reputedly discovered one of the most spectacular oilfields in the US. At its peak, the California Lakeview Number 1 ‘gusher' spurted a fountain of oil 200 feet into the air and produced over 100,000 barrels a day. It was so prolific that the price of oil temporarily collapsed by over two thirds. Atlantic Richfield, now part of BP, was also reputedly founded by dowsers, as was Union Oil. Pemex, the Mexican oil major, made a fortune from an oilfield pinpointed by Uri Geller.

Mining companies, too, continue to employ diviners behind the scenes. RTZ, the giant mining conglomerate, has used dowsers to help it find minerals around the world. In the 1970s, Sir Val Duncan, its chairman and a director of the Bank of England, taught Uri Geller to divine.

Other mining companies continue to make fortunes through divination. The Clogau gold mine in North Wales struck a rich seam after bringing in the diviner Peter Taylor.

Bill Roberts, chairman of the mine, says: "He went down into our mine and his divining forks went wild. They seemed to seize control of him. Although we thought it a little spooky we decided to follow his advice and mine a new area that we'd never looked at before."

"And we struck gold," he says. "We discovered a significant amount of gold."

The military are also keen on divining. The US Army still apparently teaches recruits to dowse for water. Special forces were also taught to divine for enemy mines during the Vietnam War.

Although many scientists continue to dismiss divining as mere superstition, a brave few have begun sticking their necks out to try and discover how it might work. A massive study conducted by physicists at the University of Munich has proved categorically that dowsers are better at finding water than professional hydrologists. (from Water Divining Beats Britain's Drought, http://www.newsmonster.co.uk/content/view/109/72/

For the major survey, 500 county agricultural extension agents were questioned about their belief in the effectiveness of dowsing, the number of dowsers they knew, and the educational level, age, religion, ethnic background, etc. of the dowsers. The authors concluded that there were approximately 25,000 dowsers in the United States; that dowsers could not be distinguished from their community on the bases of religion, ethnic group, level of education, or occupation; and that the dowsers were reported to be honest people who made little or no money from practising dowsing. (from DOWSING: A REVIEW OF EXPERIMENTAL RESEARCH by GEORGE P. HANSEN* http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/Dowsing.htm

Undoubtedly there are charlatans within the 'community' collectively referred to as dowsers or diviners, but to dismiss all as such is unfair and very inaccurate.

Oroblanco

 

[ClonedSIM]

from DOWSING: A REVIEW OF EXPERIMENTAL RESEARCH by GEORGE P. HANSEN* http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/Dowsing.htm

Oroblanco

I actually really liked this article. The author was very unbiased and, although I had read a lot of the reports contained in the article, the author revealed certain things I didn't already know, such as the lack of certain information or errors made in recording results.

It seems like the majority of the reports attribute the movement of the rods to ideomotor or phychokenesis, even the reports that seemed to support dowsing. I'm sure several members of the forum would take exception to this.

It did seem, however, that the majority of the reports indicated no real difference between dowsing and chance.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=af1733 Nope, Oh, we've had all sorts of folks give their theories, but they've all been different and not a single one of them contained a single verifiable fact. Would you believe a person who hasn't the slightest clue what they are actually doing?
***********
Like the big bang theory?
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Hey, what can I say? I actually did go out to a site that has produced coins and artifacts, and walked around with the rods for a good hour trying to get some reaction out of them, with no success. Since Art and Dell kept trying to tell me to
********
Go sit in the cockpit of a Jumbo jet for an hour or so, then fly it. Just as logical.
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Tropical Tramp

 

[ClonedSIM]

[=af1733 Nope, Oh, we've had all sorts of folks give their theories, but they've all been different and not a single one of them contained a single verifiable fact. Would you believe a person who hasn't the slightest clue what they are actually doing?
***********
Like the big bang theory?

Tropical Tramp

If you say so, Realde, but I didn't propose the Big Bang theory. Dowsers, however, do offer their own theories all the time, and none of them are worth the pixels they're made of.

Hey, what can I say? I actually did go out to a site that has produced coins and artifacts, and walked around with the rods for a good hour trying to get some reaction out of them, with no success. Since Art and Dell kept trying to tell me to
********
Go sit in the cockpit of a Jumbo jest for an hour or so, then fly it. Just as logical.

Tropical Tramp

I followed dowsers instructions. I've been told anyone can dowse, and that it's not mandatory to believe in dowsing. Yet I was unable to produce any results at all, and only succeeded in ruining a perfectly good coat hanger. But put me in the cockpit, and I could probably get the plane moving, more of a reaction then I got from the rods.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=Carl-That's why it's important to understand statistics and, for any given test protocol, what the expected results from guessing would be. I've seen a whole lotta folks, many right here on this forum, who simply don't understand statistics, and why their dowsing results are simply unimpressive.
***********

What's so un-understandable about statistics?
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Might want to check up on those police psychics... their claims are usually way overblown. I don't recall having ever heard of a single verified case of a psychic being any use to police investigations, outside of the claims made by the psychics themselves. Police tend to call them "useless."
***********
A few were extremely usefull in solving the loss of the last Zepplins. Check on it.
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Then that's not guessing, and they win by ESP. No big deal.
**************

??where do ESP and dowsing separate?
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A biased sample is one that is falsely taken to be typical of a population from which it is drawn

Tropical Tramp

-

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello my friend Tropical Tramp,

Tropical Tramp wrote: where do ESP and dowsing separate?


Not to jump in for the skeptics but I do see a distinction between ESP and dowsing, or at least dowsing as I would define it. Dowsing with rods or a stick, while walking around, would not appear to require any type of "ESP" - you are walking around waiting for a reaction from the rod(s) or at least that is the way I have seen it done and do it. A person finding water (or treasure) by ESP would not really have any need of any kind of device, since the "device" that person is using is their own mind. As for dowsing by pendulum over maps, if that works (never seen it done) I would suspect that it is a type of remote viewing, not something that is a reaction of conductors to a hidden electrical charge. Of course this is how I see it, I am sure the skeptic can simply dismiss all as bunkum. May I ask you a question on this, Tropical Tramp, why would you say that ESP is involved in dowsing, particularly for water using rods?

Oroblanco

 

[Carl-NC]

Hello my friend Tropical Tramp,

Tropical Tramp wrote: where do ESP and dowsing separate?


Not to jump in for the skeptics but I do see a distinction between ESP and dowsing, or at least dowsing as I would define it. Dowsing with rods or a stick, while walking around, would not appear to require any type of "ESP" - you are walking around waiting for a reaction from the rod(s) or at least that is the way I have seen it done and do it. A person finding water (or treasure) by ESP would not really have any need of any kind of device, since the "device" that person is using is their own mind. As for dowsing by pendulum over maps, if that works (never seen it done) I would suspect that it is a type of remote viewing, not something that is a reaction of conductors to a hidden electrical charge. Of course this is how I see it, I am sure the skeptic can simply dismiss all as bunkum. May I ask you a question on this, Tropical Tramp, why would you say that ESP is involved in dowsing, particularly for water using rods?

Oroblanco

What if ESP is the mechanism responsible for triggering the dowsing (ideomotor) response? I see no reason to separate them.

For my challenge, I have explicitely stated that folks are free to use ESP, mind reading, remote viewing, tarot cards, Ouija boards, and those little water-filled eight-ball fortune tellers if they like. I have complete confidence that any of these methods will be just as successful as dowsing.

- Carl

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI ORO. simply because most sceptics lump them together as something impossible. Actually ESP extrasensory perception is a perfect word for dowsing since it uses a special sense inherent in all of us, but not developed, to detect what ever is being looked for.

To identify a positive reaction, we resort to various devices, such as rods or whatever for a physcal indicator.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Oroblanco]

Tropical Tramp wrote: Actually ESP extrasensory perception is a perfect word for dowsing since it uses a special sense inherent in all of us, but not developed, to detect what ever is being looked for.


Well you have put it into words, that dowsing is making use of a special sense, while ESP is "extra-sensory" or beyond senses, which is why I see a difference. Also due to personal experience - I cannot ESP-detect the next week's winning lottery numbers, but can dowse-detect water, so...I would take it that dowsing is not a type of ESP but something far less "magical". Or is it possible to take out the rods, hold them over a chart of lottery numbers, and dowse the correct winning numbers for an upcoming lottery? Somehow I rather doubt that would work for me.

Carl if you are lumping dowsing with ESP and all sorts of other phenomena, why not contact one of the professional psychics and offer to test them, along with that cash prize? (Personally I think the cash prize idea is bad - sure to lead to bad feelings if not worse.) You might have more fun with them than dowsers, who are in general pretty ordinary folk....

Oroblanco

 

[Carl-NC]

Carl if you are lumping dowsing with ESP and all sorts of other phenomena, why not contact one of the professional psychics and offer to test them, along with that cash prize?

Anyone is welcomed to try. I'm not the least bit concerned that a "professional psychic" can take my money.

(Personally I think the cash prize idea is bad - sure to lead to bad feelings if not worse.) You might have more fun with them than dowsers, who are in general pretty ordinary folk....

Actually, all of the testing I have done so far with dowsers has been just fer funsies. The same is true with this test of Sandsted's ability to dowse coin dates... no prize money involved. No one has yet gone through with a formal try for the money. But all of the dowsers I've informally tested, have failed.

- Carl

 

[Jean310]

Moving right along...

Using the approximated statistics shown in Post 143, we can now calculate the odds of guessing coin dates exactly, or to within some error band. Let's start with exact. With 10 coins from a pool of 40 dates, the odds of guessing M correctly are:

M=0: (39/40)^10 = 77.63%
M=1: (1/40) * (38/39)^9 * 10 = 19.79%

- Carl

Carl,

I must be missing something here; could you comment?

Your results for Exact Date, are:
M=0: (39/40)^10 = .77633
M=1: (1/40) * (38/39)^9 * 10 = 19.79%

If PbM = C(n,M) PbSM (1-PbS)n-M Eq. (1)

Then for M=0, PbM = C(10,0) 1/400 39/4010
= 1 * 1 * 0.97510
= 0.77633
…which agrees with your M=0 value of .7763, or 77.63%

Next, if we apply Eq. (1) to the condition M=1

Then for M=1, PbM = C(10,1) 1/401 0.9759
= 10 * 0.025 * 0.79624
= 0.19906
…which does not agree with your M=1 value of .1979, or 19.79%

I realize the difference is small, but shouldn’t PbFailure = 1 – PbSuccess in all cases?

thanks..............

 

[Carl-NC]

I think you're calculating each event based on selecting a coin from the pool of 40, guessing the date, and returning it to the pool. I'm calculating each event based on selecting a coin from the pool of 40, guessing the date, and not returning it to the pool. Since the number of selections (10) is much smaller than the pool (40), the error between the two methods is not that large.

- Carl

 

[Oroblanco]

I will load [my] forum up with the excerpts of fallacies and untruths you have written about LRL, MFD, and me, which you are requesting me to post. Dell

Whose forum?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=Oroblanco but I do see a distinction between ESP and dowsing, or at least dowsing as I would define it.
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HI , ESP is a misnomer, it is simply a basic unproven function of the human, it is a normal factor ,just as, among many many others, dowsing is.
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HI I will simply state that in my initial tests of dowsing to see if it warranted further study, I had my wife hide my wedding ring. I successfully found it 9 out of 10 times so either dowsing is working or telepathy, Both are flatly denied in here sooo?

p.s. NO she was not in the room, so the were no subconscious signals given.
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Operational definitions are inherently difficult — arguably, even impossible — to apply to mental entities, because these latter are generally understood to be accessible only to the individual who experiences them and are therefore not independently verifiable."
=================
Of course I can dowse! It's quite easy, just not very useful. - Carl

Tropical Tramp

 

[Oroblanco]

I noticed an allusion to some variability in the dowsing results, which I suppose for the showman-skeptic, is to be absolute proof that dowsing does not work; however I can point to one particular influence which absolutely gives ME problems - WIND. If it is windy, anything more than the lightest breeze, those L-rods just wave all over and I cannot locate anything so don't even try it when the wind picks up. I don't know if this could cause a problem with the test of dating coins, as I assume this will be done with a pendulum and indoors, but is something that would be a problem outdoors. At least it IS for myself. I don't think outside influences can be completely accounted for in a testing like this, which is in effect a guessing game. For example, if the pendulum is one that is attracted to a magnet, or if there are distractions while the test is being conducted, etc. Best of luck with it Sandsted, hope you can overcome the obstacles.

Oroblanco