Abandoned equipment

[spillercanyon]

I filed a claim this fall which has mining equipment, trash and unfilled holes still on it. What legal rights, if any, do I have to remove his equipment from the claim if he decides not to move it? How long would I have to wait? I assume I can start removing his trash and filling his holes immediately if I cannot get him to do it.

Thanks!

P.S. I ask because most of the equipment is not of high value and he told me a few times he had no plans of ever hiking his heavy equipment back out of the canyon, especially the low end equipment, too much work he said (it's down a steep ravine and then a mile or so hike). I wouldn't want or use most of it, so to me, it's trash. If I can, I'll hike it out of there and give most of it away and sale a few items to someone who needs it. I like to keep my claims clean.

 

[Goldwasher]

Spiller you did every thing within' the law as far as the claim goes. If you don't know how to locate and maintain a valid claim you shouldn't have one. It could have been anyone that came along and located. Or very likely someone notices it is open and paper files it. You are smart to pay attention to the lands you have interest in. Add that to your bag of useful skills. it's called research good for you!
The notion that someone should put extra effort into helping a slob get back his abandoned claim is laughable. The Irony that you will be on the hook for the surface disturbance should be addressed carefully. as always Barry gives the best advice.
Reporting to the BLM by you or someone else may/will garner a visit. Document your situation before you or anyone else does so. I would just pile up the gear take before and after pictures and bring out the trash a little at a time. I wouldn't risk burning "trash" on public lands

 

[AzViper]

Spillercanyon many have given you great advice, can't say that T Todd has. Its not your responsibility to make sure claims are filed and monies paid. Clay has given you great advice. I bet Todd runs his operation much like Todd of Gold Rush runs his, RIGHT INTO THE GROUND!!!

 

[spillercanyon]

Thanks for the support, I thought I had gone well out of my way to help this person, I suppose you can't please everyone. This is an acquaintance, we have spoken perhaps an hour total. I'm not sure why I'm viewed so negatively by Todd. In the Mother Lode, just about everywhere has been claimed before, there is always someone who let it go for it to be open now. I had a claim in the 90's, life threw me some curve balls and I didn't file my paperwork. A couple months later when I got my feet on the ground I figured letting it go was a mistake. I went back to refile my claim and someone had already filed it. My loss and the only person I had ill feelings for was myself. It was my responsibility and I didn't fulfill that obligation, my fault.

 

[Tuolumne]

Thanks for the support, I thought I had gone well out of my way to help this person, I suppose you can't please everyone. This is an acquaintance, we have spoken perhaps an hour total. I'm not sure why I'm viewed so negatively by Todd. In the Mother Lode, just about everywhere has been claimed before, there is always someone who let it go for it to be open now. I had a claim in the 90's, life threw me some curve balls and I didn't file my paperwork. A couple months later when I got my feet on the ground I figured letting it go was a mistake. I went back to refile my claim and someone had already filed it. My loss and the only person I had ill feelings for was myself. It was my responsibility and I didn't fulfill that obligation, my fault.

Now he says he barley knew him

So 1.5 miles down a gultch he sees trash and recently worked holes, spiller gets the fever and starts the jumping process. Why talk to him at all if your plan was to paper claim?
Why do his paperwork, why paint his markers? Spiller that's peculiar behavior for a 40 years prospector paper claim jumper, or is it

I have yet to do that, maybe I should try it on the person I see digging a hole the next time out!

So spilled was jumped so he feels he can jump another. It's a dog eat dog world in your gultch

Spiller I have crap on my claim, rivited pipe and old mill site/ cabin

Multiple agencies tagged the areas with white and orange ribbons which mean sensitive habitat and alerted the logging to not go near. The forest service doesn't even want me metal detecting because I would destroy the relics.

Claim jumping, burning sensitive antiquities, sneaking around panning his property while half ass helping him. You keep up the "traditions" I will keep my good karma

You should form a mining district to help you deal with the trash since he has other claims I'm sure he would love the help and favors lol

Enjoy your trash, where r the pics? I don't believe you, your story changes every post

 

[spillercanyon]

My story doesn't change, your interpretation and imagination is what is changing here. No where did I say he was a friend. I've pulled over on the road to help people with their broken down cars, talked with them and helped them out but I would not consider us friends.

Todd, where do you mine? Did you do your own research and file your own claim? If so, did you contact the previous owner and give him time to refile or did you just file it? Or perhaps you paid for your claim. Did you check to see in what manner the person you were buying your claim from or had filed their claim. Did they contact the previous owner to make sure they didn't want to refile it or is your conscious clear because someone else filed it and you are not responsible for what circumstances it was claimed under. Or are you someone who pays to be in a club (a 4th generation miner, I would hope not). If so, did you look into how that club had obtained their claims and made sure that the previous owner had been notified and given the chance to refile their claim. You shouldn't throw stones in a glass house.

P.S. When I am referring to abandoned equipment, I am referring to equipment manufactured in the past 20 years. The rest of what you are talking about falls under antiquities and that's pretty obvious they shouldn't be disturbed. I'm surprised multiple agencies had to point that out for you!

 

[Duckshot]

Tuolumne, do you file claims for other miners?

You sound bitter about something.

Did you miss a deadline? If so, it wasn't anybody's responsibility.

 

[Goldwasher]

No, he just want's to make it very clear to everyone that he has no Idea what he's talking about.

 

[NHBandit]

Poor spiller, his new claim is full of crap and he doesn't want to be held accountable and looking for a way to weasel out of cleaning it up.

You knew it was full of crap, why ***** after the fact when he told you he was never going to clean it up?

You knew what you were getting so quit whining about your "bad luck" and thinking you can get out the hook by having others do your work.

Send us some pictures, I still don't understand if it's 1.5 miles off the road what r u worried about?

You knew what you were getting, claim jumpers buyers beware.

Prospecting 40 years and keeping the claim jumping "help" thy neighbor miner spirit alive! Not my style

I know zero about mining but I know someone looking to start trouble just for the sake of starting trouble when I see one... "weasel a way out of cleaning up" someone else's garbage ? Seriously ? First you insinuate that the OP is trying to steal someones claim and now you don't think the slob who trashed the place should bear some responsibility in leaving it as he found it when he clearly has no intention of returning to work it ? This place and the off the wall attitudes is a real hoot sometimes... I see you offering ZERO advice as to the questions the guy asked, only you constantly humping his leg looking for a fight.. Just my opinion

 

[Goldwasher]

My story doesn't change, your interpretation and imagination is what is changing here. No where did I say he was a friend. I've pulled over on the road to help people with their broken down cars, talked with them and helped them out but I would not consider us friends.

Todd, where do you mine? Did you do your own research and file your own claim? If so, did you contact the previous owner and give him time to refile or did you just file it? Or perhaps you paid for your claim. Did you check to see in what manner the person you were buying your claim from or had filed their claim. Did they contact the previous owner to make sure they didn't want to refile it or is your conscious clear because someone else filed it and you are not responsible for what circumstances it was claimed under. Or are you someone who pays to be in a club (a 4th generation miner, I would hope not). If so, did you look into how that club had obtained their claims and made sure that the previous owner had been notified and given the chance to refile their claim. You shouldn't throw stones in a glass house.

P.S. When I am referring to abandoned equipment, I am referring to equipment manufactured in the past 20 years. The rest of what you are talking about falls under antiquities and that's pretty obvious they shouldn't be disturbed. I'm surprised multiple agencies had to point that out for you!

The answer is yes. He did buy his own claim. Though in his defense he has never mentioned if it was because he couldn't locate one on his own. It appears that anyone who goes out and locates on their own is four degree's from Kevin Bacon and claim jumping. I've never tried to figure out the formula as it makes no sense

soups hot, filling the thermos and hitting the canyon. Ya'll have fun. I'll check on the doins' here later

 

[QNCrazy]

Tuolumne, do you file claims for other miners?

You sound bitter about something.

Did you miss a deadline? If so, it wasn't anybody's responsibility.

Actually Duck, the answer to your question is YES. I was the subject of TT's attacks about a year ago.

 

[okbasspro]

Way I see it if you don't do your required part to keep your claim it's up for grabs. Very few claims are new virgin ground. It was closed for a full year I would treat it as open ground also. I do my research and have ground I watch and the day it lapses I will file it and mine it with no guilt.

 

[arizau]

There is a reason My Land Matters occasionally posts about the number of dropped/elapsed claims in various states from time to time. Can you say hints?

 

[Tuolumne]

Actually Duck, the answer to your question is YES. I was the subject of TT's attacks about a year ago.

Exactly, my neighbor had trouble and asked a gold club and advocacy group for help.
Boy they helped themselves and paper claimed his 160 acres that his Family left him. They didn't even leave him 20 acres. Now my claim jump neighbor lives in LA, comes up once a year. Land has never been surveyed and they need to post but never have... and they don't mark corners or nothing. I hate paper claimers!!!
So I have no respect for someone trying to help, then jump!!!

You guys can explain your paper claiming anyway u want but the fact is it's your karma, mine is clean

Enjoy jumping claims, that's not my style

 

[spillercanyon]

Todd, share your karma wisdom. What did you do when you purchased your claim to ensure it's karma? Did you check to make sure the claim was not 'paper claimed' and now being sold to you? Did you check with the person you purchased the claim with to make sure he had not 'claim jumped' the claim? Did you ask if he had checked with the previous owner before filing his claim to ensure it was o.k. with them? If it was such great karma, why did this guy sale you his claim, why not just give it to you or quit claim it so you could claim it yourself? Are you enabling people to paper claim for a profit? That would be really bad karma!

 

[Duckshot]

Exactly, my neighbor had trouble and asked a gold club and advocacy group for help.
Boy they helped themselves and paper claimed his 160 acres that his Family left him. They didn't even leave him 20 acres. Now my claim jump neighbor lives in LA, comes up once a year. Land has never been surveyed and they need to post but never have... and they don't mark corners or nothing. I hate paper claimers!!!
So I have no respect for someone trying to help, then jump!!!

You guys can explain your paper claiming anyway u want but the fact is it's your karma, mine is clean

Enjoy jumping claims, that's not my style

That's too bad about your neighbor, I really am empathetic. But, what was his role in the situation? How did the other miners know that there were claims available on his property?

Some people learn from their mistakes having found themselves accountable for their actions. Some other kinds of people blame the lesson on someone else and don't learn nothing ever.

 

[spillercanyon]

Exactly, my neighbor had trouble and asked a gold club and advocacy group for help.
Boy they helped themselves and paper claimed his 160 acres that his Family left him. They didn't even leave him 20 acres. Now my claim jump neighbor lives in LA, comes up once a year. Land has never been surveyed and they need to post but never have... and they don't mark corners or nothing. I hate paper claimers!!!
So I have no respect for someone trying to help, then jump!!!

You guys can explain your paper claiming anyway u want but the fact is it's your karma, mine is clean

Enjoy jumping claims, that's not my style

I got this guy to the point he needed to put a check (I know, he could pay on the internet, I always have used a check and it did not cross my mind, I am not perfect) in an envelope with his papers and send it to BLM. I gave him over 90 days to do just that and it didn't happen. He knew and had done on several other occasions, sent his paperwork to BLM. I went far beyond what I think I needed to do. He had every opportunity to file his claim and have no issues. That's twice he knew he needed to file with BLM and he did not do it either time. I'm tired of all the babying everyone needs, I'm tired of people playing the victim for mistakes they made. I'm tired of everyone wanting the government to take care of their every need and fix every perceived mistake they make.

One last question, can you actually pay BLM on line and never send your claim location papers and map in? I thought to file a claim you have to send in your paperwork?

 

[Goldfleks]

I'm sure if you really got into the nitty gritty of some claims they would probably be contestable at the BLM or in court if you really wanted to take it that far. Claims are supposed to be based on discovery, and a proven deposit of valuable minerals, not just 20 acres and a mule and a few claim markers. Paper staking a claim only goes so far. Buyer Beware.

 

[spillercanyon]

One last point and I'm done contributing to this post. Todd, karma can work both ways, the good karma you feel helping miners who are too lazy to file their own paperwork is bad karma to those would be claimants that are responsible and would file their own paperwork and would do what is needed to keep their claim themselves but can't get a legitimate claim because someone is doing these lazy people's job.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Todd seems to be on a mission to ignore federal and State law in favor of giving grief to his fellow miners for following the law. Perhaps a restatement of the facts can help him move on.

When claim owners do not meet their annual Federal filing requirements their claims are void as of the first day after the due date. That date in most cases is September 1st. No do overs or gimmes.

Here is the Federal law:

43 USC 1744: Recordation of mining claims

Filing requirements
The owner of an unpatented lode or placer mining claim or mill or tunnel site located after October 21, 1976 shall, within ninety days after the date of location of such claim, file in the office of the Bureau designated by the Secretary a copy of the official record of the notice of location or certificate of location, including a description of the location of the mining claim or mill or tunnel site sufficient to locate the claimed lands on the ground.
(c) Failure to file as constituting abandonment; defective or untimely filing
The failure to file such instruments as required by subsections (a) and (b) of this section shall be deemed conclusively to constitute an abandonment of the mining claim or mill or tunnel site by the owner; but it shall not be considered a failure to file if the instrument is defective or not timely filed for record under other Federal laws permitting filing or re- cording thereof, or if the instrument is filed for record by or on behalf of some but not all of the owners of the mining claim or mill or tunnel site.

Under California law placer claims located by surveyed public land description are not required to place corner monuments:

3902. Where the United States survey has been extended over the land
embraced in the location, the claim may be taken by legal
subdivisions and no other reference than those of the survey shall be
required, and the boundaries of a claim so located and described
need not be staked or monumented. The description by legal
subdivisions shall be deemed the equivalent of marking.

None of this has anything to do with spillercanyon's original question but these are important matters for prospectors and locators to understand. If Todd didn't know about the mining law I could understand his objections. The plain fact of the matter is that unless claim owners meet their annual requirements they lose their claims. At the point they lose the claim it becomes open to location by other United States citizens.

There is a lot more to this issue than can be covered here and it is off topic. I suggest Todd or someone else start a new thread if they still have doubts about the laws of location. It would be beneficial to other readers and would allow spillercanyon to have his thread back without being sidetracked to these other issues.

Heavy Pans

 

[Clay Diggins]

I'm sure if you really got into the nitty gritty of some claims they would probably be contestable at the BLM or in court if you really wanted to take it that far. Claims are supposed to be based on discovery, and a proven deposit of valuable minerals, not just 20 acres and a mule and a few claim markers. Paper staking a claim only goes so far. Buyer Beware.

Claim owners and prospectors can not contest claims at the BLM. The law is clear that if you dispute another locators claim you must settle that matter privately or in the appropriate State court. Claim disputes between individuals are a civil matter for the courts. The BLM is banned by the very first mining law from settling disputes between miners.

Heavy Pans