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TheRealTim

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Aug 17, 2022
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Well Tim maybe someone can extend an olive branch and start some modern talks about the "process" it might not seem like it to everyone, but I'm trying very hard to hopefully change some minds and start that process well see how far I can go, and if it'll change anything....probably not but I'm working at it !!

P.S.
I'll take beaurocrats and every person possible on boat rides and keep this at the forefront of as many people as it takes to get attention because I can....the offer stands beaurocrat....we start documenting in spring...just like every dive season begins. Maybe I'm willing to try and change your mind, and have you on our side....whether you think you matter or not in the argument??
I understand, and I do think that it would be good for folks on all sides of the discussion to remind ourselves that we are all united through a shared love of history. We have more to talk about collaboratively than we have to argue about; or, at least the conversations would be a lot more productive and interesting!

Thing is, bureaucrats can't change laws. When I directed DHR, people tended to think I had a lot more power than I did. I think that's common throughout state and federal government, based on my experience, anyway. The Ghost of Mel Fisher could be appointed State Archaeologist tomorrow, and that doesn't legally change anything.

Like I've said a few times in this thread: I don't walk in lockstep with UNESCO or all professional archaeologists, and I don't agree with how all laws and regulations are written. The specific example I gave was the "preservation in place" ethos, which I've never been sold on. I have no problem with leaving things alone, but I don't think it's 100% scientifically supportable. I believe that every resource is different and approach that works for one site may not be appropriate for another.

Of course, none of the state or federal laws themselves cite preservation in place as a mandatory approach, at least as far as I remember. That's just the easiest example off the top of my head.

Also, I'd almost never turn down a boat ride and a good conversation, though state and federal employees probably have to decline because of various "gift" laws that are in place.
 

Blak bart

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I understand, and I do think that it would be good for folks on all sides of the discussion to remind ourselves that we are all united through a shared love of history. We have more to talk about collaboratively than we have to argue about; or, at least the conversations would be a lot more productive and interesting!

Thing is, bureaucrats can't change laws. When I directed DHR, people tended to think I had a lot more power than I did. I think that's common throughout state and federal government, based on my experience, anyway. The Ghost of Mel Fisher could be appointed State Archaeologist tomorrow, and that doesn't legally change anything.

Like I've said a few times in this thread: I don't walk in lockstep with UNESCO or all professional archaeologists, and I don't agree with how all laws and regulations are written. The specific example I gave was the "preservation in place" ethos, which I've never been sold on. I have no problem with leaving things alone, but I don't think it's 100% scientifically supportable. I believe that every resource is different and approach that works for one site may not be appropriate for another.

Of course, none of the state or federal laws themselves cite preservation in place as a mandatory approach, at least as far as I remember. That's just the easiest example off the top of my head.

Also, I'd almost never turn down a boat ride and a good conversation, though state and federal employees probably have to decline because of various "gift" laws that are in place.
Well Tim let's all hope that one day things get better for all of us, and there is a time when cooperation and partnership with the state, federal, and international entities can be a normal thing with private enterprise. I believe it can happen, and eventually will !! Things are changing, and even beaurocrats don't live forever....island life has certain qualities that never change, and one of our native traditions is wrecking !! Governments come, and governments go, and islanders keep doing what we always have. And as long as operations like fishers are still running, and blowing holes......well then there is always hope for private industry, and on top of that......its the little guy who works hard, and is the underdog, who usally wins the support of the people, and let's not ever forget that the taxes of private industry are what pay government elected officials, and bureaucrat salaries....in essence they all work for private enterprise!!

It's not the archeological explanations, and research that make the story of the "ATOCHA" so interesting to the people.....its the story and drama surrounding one man's incredible story of finding its treasures against all odds, and then prevailing against big government from stealing it all.....thats the provenance, that's the age old story of struggling against the odds and prevailing!! That's why people will pay so much for those coins.....if you find the same coin in a corn field in Pennsylvania, it's worth a fraction of the price of a melfisher atocha coin. But....I guess that matters not to some, and that's fine. Shipwreck narratives are a dime a dozen, but stories like melfishers are rare, and many more people are aware of him and have been to his museum than have read any of the papers that archeologist write.....in fact how can there work be taken to seriously when they can't properly display and present there work.....not much to show my kid or the throngs of visitors here anything about our underwater maritime cultural heritage, because the fed and state has nothing here to represent the management of our cultural heritage by N.O.A.A. ?? what we do have is private enterprise in the form of the mel fisher museum, the shipwreck museum, and the diving museum.....all privately managed and serving history to guests from around the world everyday. Of course ill continue to get in the water like I have all my life, I'll be doing islander stuff like finding wrecks, because that's my job !! I take people and show them island stuff in the water. From lobstering and spearfishing, to shell diving and metal detecting.....I can't help but find these wrecks after a lifetime in the water.....its our way of life...as it always has been throughout our local history!!
 

Blak bart

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Also, I'd almost never turn down a boat ride and a good conversation, though state and federal employees probably have to decline because of various "gift" laws that are in place.
That I will say, (and I'm assuming here) may be a big part of the problem ? It appears to most of us that there is an unwillingness of government to even listen to, or work with people like myself because of unspecified, and unspoken assumptions by the people involved in government.....its not a gift.....its something important I have to show archeologist !! Its a shame you should feel that way, and be scared to except a boat ride that could be important to state history.....im sorry that's the case !!
 

TheRealTim

Jr. Member
Aug 17, 2022
35
38
That I will say, (and I'm assuming here) may be a big part of the problem ? It appears to most of us that there is an unwillingness of government to even listen to, or work with people like myself because of unspecified, and unspoken assumptions by the people involved in government.....its not a gift.....its something important I have to show archeologist !! Its a shame you should feel that way, and be scared to except a boat ride that could be important to state history.....im sorry that's the case !!
To be fair, it's not unspecific or unspoken - it's literally a law, in Florida. State employees can't accept gifts greater than a certain value, and at some agencies those rules are even stricter than the law provides for. It's not the bureaucrat/employee's fault. They just want to follow the rules/keep their jobs. Politicians make the laws.

Lots of good thoughts in your post above and I will respond when I have more time.
 

ARC

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Treasure_Hunter

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Treasure_Hunter

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Should have been 'lukdiver' but maybe when i switched computers or changed email address I got lost? Thanks

There is a lukdiver, if it is you send me a pm with the email address associated with Lukdiver and I can reset password for you.

Also, did you use "magniforte" as a user nam
 

Treasure_Hunter

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Not 'magniforte'. I'm fine with new ID and old account postings don't matter. Thanks
Members are not allowed to have multiple accounts, please pm ( called conversations on this software) me with email of your old account and I can set avtemp password.
 

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