Admiralty claims and Florida State permit areas-how do you know?

[ropesfish]

OK...maybe this is going to be one of those times that I just missed the memo, but does there exist a master list of past and present Florida shipwreck permits? I keep hearing of such a thing, but in 12 years I have yet to actually 'see' one.
And...then there is the question of admiralty claims...who keeps the list of these? Say I'm casually driving along with my wife and happen to be dragging a magnetometer/sidescan array and at 27.5894324,-80.2937091, I find a wreck from the 1600s. Where do I look to see if that wreck has been arrested, claimed, etc or does one have to retain an admiralty lawyer to find out? More realistically, if I am researching a wreck and feel that I have a good idea where it might be, can I look at some database or list to see if there is already a claim on the area I want to go survey?
Does anyone have an actual web or snail mail address for this?

 

[enrada]

If the State doesn't have a list or database of leases how could they ever know if a boat is legal or illegal?

 

[ropesfish]

If the State doesn't have a list or database of leases how could they ever know if a boat is legal or illegal?

I am sure they have a list/database...access to said materials may be something else.

 

[TRG]

This subject appears to be a black hole of controversy and legal debate (as I have previously noted reading some of the threads on this forum). 'Admiralty claims' is a wide ranging subject including many things besides jurisdiction over some particular coastal areas and it wouldn't surprise me if there is no central list such as you seek, and instead one would have to go in person to the appropriate 'hall of records' to ferret out the information one's self - or pay someone else to do so. A lawyer's paradise. Obscure and unclear laws, multiple overlapping jurisdictions and claims... The fifteen men on the dead man's chest no doubt died waiting for the court proceedings to end to see what they could claim of the spoils (Oh, wait, "Dead Man's Chest" is the name of a Caribbean island - but you get the idea).

I doubt this is helpful - perhaps some other reader actually knows something practical. Never the less, thanks for posing the question.

Some interesting links - at least I found them so:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiralty_law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandoned_Shipwrecks_Act

Abandoned Vessel Claims Process FAQs

https://www.irmi.com/articles/exper...-challenge-for-even-the-seasoned-practitioner

Admiralty and Maritime Law Guide - Codes/Rules

and one from a controversy dear to the hearts of some readers here - I believe the debate is over whether the wreck is of a state military vessel (French) or a merchant vessel and thus a horse of a completely different color, legally speaking:

France claims rights to shipwreck linked to lost colony of Fort Caroline | Jacksonville News, Sports and Entertainment | jacksonville.com

 

[TRG]

I was once told that "a patent is a right to sue for damages, nothing else". The State of Fla may not particularly care, and thus may not devote any special energy to maintaining a list or map of such - as long as the appropriate forms were filed and fees paid. The claim is a "right to sue" for infringement or damage by one private party against another - isn't that correct?

Someone here must actually know about this...

 

[aquanut]

I was once told that "a patent is a right to sue for damages, nothing else". The State of Fla may not particularly care, and thus may not devote any special energy to maintaining a list or map of such - as long as the appropriate forms were filed and fees paid. The claim is a "right to sue" for infringement or damage by one private party against another - isn't that correct?

Someone here must actually know about this...

I couldn't find a damn thing! What kind of Bullshit is going on here!?

 

[Jolly Mon]

It almost seems as though the State of Florida is trying to make legal shipwreck salvage as difficult as possible. LOL.

Of course, this attitude is in direct contradiction to established Florida law.

Folks, if you haven't figured this out yet, let me give you a clue: you are dealing with a bunch of government conspirators.

They are corrupt to the core. To the bone. And they pull the strings of law enforcement.

There is never going to be legal 1715/ Atocha type shipwreck salvage in Florida again.

 

[ivan salis]

there is a Florida state "master list" of all the shipwrecks and also any other items that the state archies claim "control" over ...funny thing is the state archies are the ONLY state officals that are exempt from the "sunshine law" -- (basically due to the fact that some folks MIGHT loot sites if they found out where they are , the archies claim the "right" to deny the public access to the "master file list") ...so you got to ask them to compare your data / spot to those already listed in the "files" to see if its been claimed ...thus you waste time and money "researching" a already found and claimed wreck spot because you can't easily find out what shipwrecks have already been claimed ...and the amount of "new" salvage permits issued have been very very few ( note the term "salvage permit -- not research permit" --salvage means you can take the items and sell them "for profit")

and yes --several years ago I was at a St Augustine at the lighthouse -at a archie fest meeting-- lots of archies from florida / ga and other places gathered to chat to one another ..--since it was "open to the public" I slipped in to see and hear what I could find out ...well the state of fla archies were crowing about the fact that had not issued ANY NEW SALAVAGE PERMITS THAT YEAR ...yep crazy as it seems --they were actually publically and openly bragging about it ... despite the fact by the judges orders from the mel fisher case ..that the state was expressly NOT to do exactly what they were bragging about ...(blocking salvage permits from being issued) ...the judge knew how petty the state folks could be so he ordered them to set up a permitting process to issue permits by ...which they have now twisted into a "no salvage permitting process"---sure you can get any permit other than a "salvage" permit ..thus wasting your time and money and giving the state free research

the Florida state permitting folks hate "for profit" shipwreck folks with a passion and are crooked to the core . THEY WILL NOT deal fairly or properly with you , know this from the get go and expect every LEGAL stumbling block to be thrown into your path that they can get their hands on

 

[Black Duck]

there is a Florida state "master list" of all the shipwrecks and also any other items that the state archies claim "control" over ...funny thing is the state archies are the ONLY state officals that are exempt from the "sunshine law" -- (basically due to the fact that some folks MIGHT loot sites if they found out where they are , the archies claim the "right" to deny the public access to the "master file list") ...so you got to ask them to compare your data / spot to those already listed in the "files" to see if its been claimed ...thus you waste time and money "researching" a already found and claimed wreck spot because you can't easily find out what shipwrecks have already been claimed ...and the amount of "new" salvage permits issued have been very very few ( note the term "salvage permit -- not research permit" --salvage means you can take the items and sell them "for profit")

and yes --several years ago I was at a St Augustine at the lighthouse -at a archie fest meeting-- lots of archies from florida / ga and other places gathered to chat to one another ..--since it was "open to the public" I slipped in to see and hear what I could find out ...well the state of fla archies were crowing about the fact that had not issued ANY NEW SALAVAGE PERMITS THAT YEAR ...yep they were actually bragging about it ... despite the fact by the judges orders from the mel fisher case ..that the state was expressly NOT to do exactly what they were bragging about ...blocking salvage permits from being issued ...the judge knew how petty the state folks could be so he ordered them to set up a permitting process ...which they have now twisted into a "no salvage permitting process"---sure you can get any permit other than a "salvage" permit ..thus wasting your time and money and giving the state free research

There is a map and a list of all permits with the State
You have to ask for it. I was sent this information twice before the State started trying to screw GME
Its pretty much every permit ever giving and the area's name of companys and what kind of permit

 

[ivan salis]

hum surprised you were issued the "master file" permit map ...but your a large company ..me I 'm just a small one man retired "hobbyist" research guy

 

[Salvor6]

Black Duck you have the map and list of all the permits? Can you post it on here? I'm sure the state would love to share this information.

 

[ropesfish]

Thanks, guys, for the responses. I am trying to avoid the shotgun approach, so should the request go as a 'request for public records' to the Office of the General Counsel or to the Florida Division of Historical Resources/ Mary Glowacky or someone else? Anyone have any insight there?

HNY

 

[diverlynn]

It will probably be in a format unreadable to the normal computer user. I tried several years ago to get a list of all treasure received by the state, an inventory list if you will. I did receive the file however I could never produce a program to open and view it. They did their due dilengence but failed to satisfy.... as usual.

 

[Boatlode]

Say I'm casually driving along with my wife and happen to be dragging a magnetometer/sidescan array and at 27.5894324,-80.2937091, I find a wreck from the 1600s.

**snicker**

 

[ropesfish]

Lynn - send me a copy of that, please. I would bet a dollar that I can find a program to either convert it or open it. If I do, I will convert it and send it back.

 

[diverlynn]

Bill, that was 10 years or more ago. Long gone. Sorry

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Bikerlawyer asked for and received said treasure inventory file a few years back. Yep some archaic file format. The thread is here, somewhere I might have started the investigation... gold doubloons and pieces of eight all handed down from Applegate, but wait! Where are those gold doubloons and pieces of eight?

Bill a few years back, 2011, I made an email inquiry for an updated list of current permits and admiralties and was sent a map, which I have posted here before. The email contact is no longer in her position. I will look to see if I can identify the current position holder.

OK so here is what I have....

[FONT=Arial, Verdana][FONT=&quot]Division of Historical Research’s salvage contracts and permits
[/FONT][/FONT]
1A31Permits@dos.myflorida.com

"[FONT=&quot]The Florida Keys salvage permits are managed by [/FONT][FONT=&quot]John Halas [John.Halas@noaa.gov] so you could contact him for information about the active permits in that area right now. The Keys is the only area of Florida I don’t manage and that is because it is a National Marine Sanctuary run by NOAA. [/FONT] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There have been permits and contracts issued for the panhandle and West Coast of Florida in the past, there just aren’t any active ones there at this time, I would say that they were mainly focused around the Tampa area and south when there were permits on the Gulf side though. "

Not sure of Kevin Porter would still be a viable contact....
"[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Kevin Porter is in fact the 1A-32 Research Permit contact (I just wanted to provide you with all the types of permits offered) I only manage the 1A-31 Exploration Permits and 1A-31 Recovery Permits"

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The 1A-32 Archaeological Research Permits are available to accredited universities or colleges, and historical, scientific or educational institutions for the purpose of undertaking archaeological survey and documentation on either land or submerged state lands. Cultural Resource Management companies are also common recipients of these permits. Excavation and recovery of artifacts are allowed under a strict set of guidelines and all artifacts belong to the state of Florida, although they may be loaned temporarily or permanently to that institution for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]curation and exhibition.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The 1A-31 Exploration Permits are available to anyone (but namely [/FONT][FONT=&quot]commercial salvors) who want to undertake archaeological survey on state-owned sovereignty submerged lands [/FONT][FONT=&quot]with the understood purpose of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]adding to the general store of knowledge concerning history, archaeology, and anthropology. This permit can be modified to include limited e[/FONT][FONT=&quot]xcavation and recovery of artifacts are allowed under a strict set of guidelines for the sole purpose of identification of the type of site. Again, and all artifacts belong to the state of Florida unless a Recovery permit is issued, then they are included in the pool of artifacts of which a portion is kept by the state and the remaining portion is transferred to the permittee.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The 1A-31 Recovery Permit is only available to people/companies who have successfully satisfied the contractual obligations of a 1A-31 Exploration Permit and can provide documentation and justification for the excavation of a historic shipwreck site. Artifacts recovered are divided between the state and permittee as outlined in the rule.

Best of luck my friend! [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[diverlynn]

I do remember Bikelawyer requesting the same info as I did at the same time. Maybe he still has it.

 

[diverlynn]

Looking back through my many research links I found this, pretty cool. Might be of some help.
https://wrecks.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/viewer/

 

[Salvor6]

That is the NOAA wrecks and obstructions database Also known as AWOIS. It is very accurate. We dived many of the spots including the "6 foot x 8 foot" anchor just off Cockroach Bay. It is a giant freighter anchor lost in 1978.