Amateur Digger in NC

[NCprivyDigger]

Hello, fellow treasure hunters. Let me start off with saying I just found this site and joined last night. I've already jumped in last night to test the waters asking for help to ID some bottles. I have been collecting bottles since 1991. I started out finding bottles in crawl spaces of homes I was doing HVAC work. Then I moved up to rummaging through old buildings and houses that were abandoned or in the process of being remodeled. Obtaining permission to go into these places has always been rough. Having to track down the owners who live in other states and even one owner in the UK made for a hard time getting the proper permission. I even obtained notarized paperwork from the owners stating I had permission to cover my own rear-end from neighbors, nearby family of the owners and local law enforcement. I was so excited and proud of my findings I went to a local bottle show with some of what I thought to be "The Best Pieces" to show off. After all that I have gone through to obtain much of my bottles and jars I discovered that 80% of my collection was worthless money wise. Though it was still very unique, and some pretty to display. Seems I had been collecting very common bottles that other collectors before me had left behind. Let me tell you, I was disappointed as well as very excited to learn my collection was common for an amateur. I have started researching more about bottle collecting to learn about the many bottles I never even thought about or knew about in bottle dumps, trash dumps and outhouse digging. I currently rent a house built in 1978 on property that has belonged to the landlord's family back mid 1700's. Much of the land over the years has been sold off and developed. But there still remains 5 acres with a simple two story farm house built in 1803/4 on the property. I have permission to dig with the respects of not trashing the property in the process. The acreage around the house is very grown up. The driveway to the house has trees 20-25 feet tall in its path now. Poison Ivy and Oak, English Ivy, roses, honey suckle and black berry cover just about all the ground, bushes and trees. Making for a hard time to locate by eye any depressions where a privy may have been. Back during the winter I managed to locate two privies. Both are about 30’ apart and both are next to some very large wild roses. One has a black walnut tree next to it and the other has a pecan tree next to it. I'm guessing for shade? I have dug one to what appears to be the bottom at only 5’ deep. I even probed and just to be sure dug a 3’ deep test hole through the bottom to verify it didn't go any further. Here in the North Carolina Mountains it's mostly red clay after 18"-20” of topsoil anywhere you dig, besides the beach. So after fighting a 4X5X5deep square hole and then a 3’ deep posthole for further testing I gave up on privy #1 that I found. Oh and in #1 I found broke window glass, pieces of depression glassware, pieces of china, soda bottles, brown/amber bottles (unknown from what, picture in my earlier post), white cosmetic jars and bottles, broken and whole ball/mason/atlas jars, ball/mason/atlas white and clear glass seal caps, dukes mayonnaise jars, a few marbles, a German 1943 10cent coin, plastic screw tops on clear glass perfume or food coloring bottles, and what looks to be ketchup bottles. Basically it appears to be all common and 1900’s stuff. I started digging in privy #2 and stopped after 4’ down found 20 or so liquor and wine flask with threaded tops. Many of these I have from my crawl spaces and building hunts. Many of them as I was told were not worth collecting. No names on the bottles, just several clear flask with federal warnings on them and little or no designs and code numbers on the bottoms. I did find one with a patriot bust on one side and full body patriot, ships, and water on the other side of a threaded top brown/amber flask. But for right now I am holding off on any further digging of privy #2 until I know it is worth my time. My biggest concern is trying to locate the much older privies on this property. Besides the red clay there is also a lot of quartz rock and other stones all over the property that makes probing very slow and hard. Privy #1 and #2 were located by luck of studying the land for several weeks during the winter when the ground was snow covered to see depressions under the edges of the massive overgrown roses. The #1 privy was only dirt and bottles. The #2 privy was rocks on top with dirt, then another layer of larger rock then dirt again before hitting the liquor bottles. I have no idea how much deeper #2 goes but so far it is 5X6’ square. With a house built in 1803/4 there should be 10 or more privies for a 2 story 4 BR house somewhere on this property, I just can't seem to locate them. Any advice and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I will post pictures as soon as I can find or purchase another camera cable to download my pics. I feel that a lot of my concerns and questions about these bottles can be better answered if I post some pics for everyone to see what I'm talking about.
Thank you,
Bill

 

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[jgas]

Well your soil is much different than mine in Indiana, but I use a probe to find the locations of the privies. Our soil is fairly soft here with a few exceptions of clay. But even with that clay you can tell where fill dirt was placed. Some times I think I have an easy find with a privy site because of the depressions in the ground but found that they were just that, depressions. The decent one I located had no depression and was filled with over 200 bottles, plates, etc. dating back to the mid 1800's. I use a 3 foot and a 6 foot spring steel probe. Push these in the ground every few feet to try and locate the privy. You will listen for the tip of the probe hitting glass, bricks, plates or any old thing they dumped in these pits. Then after each probe look at the tip of the probe and see if you see ash on the tip. This would be a more white colored dirt from where the ash was tossed in the privy from the furnace. This seems to happen a lot here in Indiana.
Dig the test holes like you have done and see what ya get. Trial and error really. If ya need a probe let me know, I have a dealer here in Indiana that can hook you up. Hope that helps a bit. I am sure there are much more seasoned pro's than me to give you more and better advice. jgas

 

[NCprivyDigger]

Well, I went ahead and finished digging out Privy #2 and even started and finished a 3rd privy with much disappointment. So far all 3 privies went no further than 6' deep. I use a 3', 4' and 6' probe and let me tell you trying to push them through red clay is not at all easy. They filled in the used privies with red clay, rocks, bricks, any and all glass items newspapers, concrete and very little top soil. The glass tends to be from middle to bottom of the pit with the rocks and other debris on the top layers. So it makes for a very hard time just probing for the privies to start with. I have found no ash layers that so many people talk of finding. Now in Privy #2 I did find a 2" layer of newspaper with 8" of lime over that sealing the layer like a cap 18" from the bottom of the pit. Must have dressed it up for some sort of gathering, funeral, wedding, reunion, return of war hero, etc. But these 3 privies were just straight up square pits in red clay earth with no brick, stone, concrete or wood liners. Now, as I said these pits are no deeper than 6' deep. I have probed and dug test holes another 5' beyond the bottoms that I have hit in hopes that they would just be caps. Now the property has been in one family name and dates back to mid 1700's and the oldest house on the property is 1803-1804. There should be privies all over this property and yet I can't locate them without breaking out the backhoe or dozer. The 3 privies I have manage to find I have dated to mid 1900, as a guess seeing that the oldest piece was from a broken plate of depression glass made between 1930-36. The #2 privy that had the newspaper in it had a few readable dates, February 7Th 1943, April 5Th 1943, March 29Th and 30Th 1943. So I am at a loss to where and best method of locating any other privies on this property.

Bill

 

[jgas]

GPR......Ground Penetrating Radar! Wow, I'm not sure there was one since you have been very thorough. The privies here are just topsoil, maybe some clay, sand and then bottles. Pretty easy to locate with the probes. I am sure that the clay is a royal pain. So I dont know, maybe someone else on the east coast can chime in here and help some more. Sorry I could not be of more help. jgas

 

[NCprivyDigger]

GPR......Ground Penetrating Radar! Wow, I'm not sure there was one since you have been very thorough. The privies here are just topsoil, maybe some clay, sand and then bottles. Pretty easy to locate with the probes. I am sure that the clay is a royal pain. So I dont know, maybe someone else on the east coast can chime in here and help some more. Sorry I could not be of more help. jgas

Thank you, JGas. So far you seem to be the only one who has taken the time to even try to help me. Thank you again.
I am currently marking the property with arc's from the back door in 5' increments out to 75' from the back door. I am including the side yards also in my search for the other privies. Once I get everything marked out I plan to probe the ground every 3' along the arc's I have marked out. The 3 privies I have found so far are 4'x5' (smallest). So at a 3'x5' probe grid I should be able to locate a few more privies. If I still cannot locate them by probe then I will break out the gas powered auger and start digging 5' test holes. I may lose a few pieces if and when I should ever hit a privy with it. But I am running out of ideas on how to better locate them on my own with what I have or can borrow. Ground penetrating radar would be great but don't have the cash to buy or rent one at this time. LOL. But I will find these privies one way or the other. It might cost me a few broken pieces in the process but hopefully the whole pieces I find will make up for the loss of some and my time.

Bill

 

[jgas]

How close together were the 3 privies? Just a few feet apart I assume. No access to Plat maps that may show where some privies were in relation to the home? Probably not considering the age of the place. But it would be worth checking out at your local library. Sanborn maps are good. But local history maps are better.
I am digging a privy that started today and will just not end. I am at 7 to 8 feet so far but have had a set back as far as cave ins are concerned. The wood walls are gone(just remnants remain) and the soil behind the walls is sand and very fluffy at that. But we did manage to get around 30 bottles, doll head peice, and several other items. The embossed ones are great. Some Blob tops and some wine and flask stuff. Typical I guess. But we will have to brace the walls with some 3/4 plywood and 2x4's to go any further. I am still probing at that depth and am still hitting glass another 3 feet or more. So who knows. Check on the different dirt in the hole as well. If there is wood ash it is an later privy, it is coal ash it would be an earlier one. Just not sure where to point you to locate anymore in that yard. But there has to be I would think. Let me know how it turns out. jgas

 

[NCprivyDigger]

How close together were the 3 privies? Just a few feet apart I assume. No access to Plat maps that may show where some privies were in relation to the home? Probably not considering the age of the place. But it would be worth checking out at your local library. Sanborn maps are good. But local history maps are better.
I am digging a privy that started today and will just not end. I am at 7 to 8 feet so far but have had a set back as far as cave ins are concerned. The wood walls are gone(just remnants remain) and the soil behind the walls is sand and very fluffy at that. But we did manage to get around 30 bottles, doll head peice, and several other items. The embossed ones are great. Some Blob tops and some wine and flask stuff. Typical I guess. But we will have to brace the walls with some 3/4 plywood and 2x4's to go any further. I am still probing at that depth and am still hitting glass another 3 feet or more. So who knows. Check on the different dirt in the hole as well. If there is wood ash it is an later privy, it is coal ash it would be an earlier one. Just not sure where to point you to locate anymore in that yard. But there has to be I would think. Let me know how it turns out. jgas

The 3 privies I have located are far apart, see pic. Sorry for it's crude markings, best I could do with a mouse in paint. As you can see the land is pretty flat around the house but there is a huge ditch past the driveway on the left and then I marked the ditch on the right. privies #1 and #3 were found 10' just inside the wood line as the ditch is starting it's downhill decent. Privy #2 was located between the shed and the base of a massive Black Walnut tree and Rose Tree.... it was a bush but is now over 10' tall and just as wide. There are very few trees dating over 100 years old on the property to perhaps locate privies next to. There are over 30+ wild rose bushes within 100' of the back door. Then I have found 15 massive grape vines, one of which is as thick as a quart jar it's so old and big. So when it comes to land surveying I can find plenty of possible locations and signs of outhouse's but with a 5' probe unable to find anything besides rock and roots. I have even dug test holes in over 20 locations and came up with nothing but rock and roots. The property has grown up with small tress, bushes and english ivy and poison ivy and poison oak.... a joy to dig in too.

 

[jgas]

With the rocks it is going to be tough with the probes. I wouldn't be too concerned with the trees, shrubs, vines as a starting point. I know they planted Lilac bushes near privies for obvious reasons but since your property is really old that would not be surprising to see it out in the middle of nowhere. If they did not back fill them with garbage and such it will be tougher. The 5 foot probe should be good. I have hit rocks here too but they make a different sound than the glass objects. A different feel too. I would suggest going directly back from the rear door about 50 to 75 feet and try in those areas. The ones that I have done here are straight back from the back door. I hope I am steering you in the right direction and I hope that you find that sucker soon or you will drive yourself insane. jgas

 

[NCprivyDigger]

With the rocks it is going to be tough with the probes. I wouldn't be too concerned with the trees, shrubs, vines as a starting point. I know they planted Lilac bushes near privies for obvious reasons but since your property is really old that would not be surprising to see it out in the middle of nowhere. If they did not back fill them with garbage and such it will be tougher. The 5 foot probe should be good. I have hit rocks here too but they make a different sound than the glass objects. A different feel too. I would suggest going directly back from the rear door about 50 to 75 feet and try in those areas. The ones that I have done here are straight back from the back door. I hope I am steering you in the right direction and I hope that you find that sucker soon or you will drive yourself insane. jgas

Trust me when I say it is already driving me mad trying to locate these darn privies. I received an email from a retired privy digger. He is retired due to age and health issues but has sent me a few words of wisdom. Privies can be anywhere from 5' to 100' from the back door. Depending on what the layout of the property was like back in the 1800's for the pits I'm trying to locate. I have been to the local library, county records, state capital and even to Sanborn Maps and I'm not able to get any detailed maps of the property in question any older than 1986. This property was just outside of the city limits until 1986. I can get street maps and a topo for a 10 mile area dating back to 81, but that does me little good for just a 4 acre plot of land to locating privies. According to the few county records that I can recover about this property and speaking to the landlord this property use to be a tree nursery mid 1900's, before that he has no idea. It's been in his family since late 1700's but all pictures and anyone living on the property over the years has passed on. So it is a mystery as to how much land there was at one time total, how many houses or barns over the time and what all it was used for over the years to help locate any privies.
But I refuse to give up, if I have to dig up the whole dang property.

Bill