Amish craftsmanship my butt!!!

[Dave44]

You have a Strange thought process Mrs gold, I think You Judge me wrongly because you do not know me. I am very conservative, somewhat a libertarian and do not take anyones rights away.
You seen to be a literate, Buisiness owner? The fact is no buisiness pay taxes, big or small. They all pass the taxes to you and then give them to the government, Because of You they are able to do this with complete confidence that average joe will not know that they have, in fact, raised the taxes on individuals again when they tax the EVIL corporations. These taxes, fees, regulations, workmans comp, general liability and even the minimum wage and soon socialized medicine will make this a tough economic recovery.
How much paperwork do you do for your company, payroll, unemployment ins, quarterly taxes, do you provide health ins and 401k? Fill out I9s?
I think you have a romantic thought of buisiness as easy times, I would say gentleman farmer if I were to guess.
And if you or your husband worked for a living and were a Legal Citizen you deserve all the rights you have, even the right to be offended. But you know better than that argument and I am surprised you started that one for political points. If you do not contribute, if you are a parasite, with what reason should you have the ability to continue down that path?
The greatest kindness would be to make them "uncomfortable in their poverty." Is it Ben Franklin Mrs Oroblanco?

 

[Dave44]

And since my mind wanders terribly, I was making the point that Mrs Pelosi said that with government taking care of you, and your needs being met, You would be free to be a musician, or an artist. That is definately a happy face on socialism.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Dave,

I am not Mrs. Gold - Mrs. Oroblanco means Mrs. WhiteGold, but, I am Mrs. Oroblanco - or Beth

Small businesses (and yes - I have been a business owner) - take their costs, add their desired profit margin and charge said amount. It is cheaper if you incorporate. Mostly because you can pay yourself, and you can deduct your pay. Of course, then you pay personal income tax.
If you don't incorporate, then you file differently.

Actually, I've had more than one business - including, but not exclusive - a real estate business, a bar, restaurant, cafe, driving school, insurance business and gun shop. (among others). And a farm. Not a hobby one, though. Oh, I forgot the business I was in with my brother - stoneyard.
I took care of all the taxes, insurance, payroll etc. I'm here to tell you - small businesses pay taxes. Large corporations have deductions that
small businesses and individuals could NEVER get. Including tax breaks - huge tax breaks.

Pelosi has a bass-ackwards idea of Maslow's Theory. And I will continue to insist that - if someone, anyone - thinks that they should just
take away a constitutional right, just because they are not working - then, that person has no respect for the constitution, which is where this conversation started - your statement - if someone is a
TRUE libertarian, they believe in the TOTAL constitution and as little government as possible.

In case you don't know - the government not only makes you take out taxes, it also makes you match many of them. It is the cost of doing
business.

Since we have hi-jacked the thread - I'm going to make this my last post on this subject - if you want to take it to another place, let me know.

Beth

 

[mikeofaustin]

The fact is no buisiness pay taxes, big or small. They all pass the taxes to you and then give them to the government, Because of You they are able to do this with complete confidence that average joe will not know that they have, in fact, raised the taxes on individuals again when they tax the EVIL corporations. These taxes, fees, regulations, workmans comp, general liability and even the minimum wage and soon socialized medicine will make this a tough economic recovery.

Actually, the business 'should' pay taxes (did you misstep there for a moment or am I missing something?). Business make money, and they should rightfully pay taxes on the money that they earned. The fact of the matter is still there. There are loop holes in this system that allows big corps to not pay any taxes, or a very small share of what they should pay because of off shore loopholes in the tax system.

I was just thinking today that if I saw a conservative hold open a door for someone, I would say to them, "Hey, why are you doing that? That's socialist behavior".

The truth is, that's not a very good example, but... if I were to say, "Why are private companies able to lobby our own government, and push to have health care a paid service, when there are clearly much cheaper options?". It's been proven time and time again that the expenses for private health care go to a large part of the administration fees... also, the executive fee's alone don't do us any good either. In normal land, there is something to be said about an entity that lobbies to have a competitor kept out of their field. It suggests that they see a real competition. Otherwise, they would have no problem with it. The awefull truth is, if there was a single payer system, it would be a whole lot less expensive than private insurance companies And they would fall flat, and mister rich man would not be able to buy his 3rd yacht that he earned by denying a medication for heart pills that would have prevented his death (keep in mind here, it's a business, and buisness make money on 'not' paying out). Someone could argue that the small fee we paid to the government for this single payer system would be a big weight on our paycheck for extra taxes, but others would argue that since business owners don't have to pay such an 'outrageous' fee for their employees private health care insurance, they would be able to hire MORE employees.

The real truth of the matter is this: There is a much less expensive way to pay for health care. The lib's even offered to have a single payer system, in concert with the private insurance that was already there. In other words, they could chose to have private, or a single payer system. The private insurance would still be there if they desire it. It would be a 'choice'. But, low and behold, it didn't get passed because the rich people own the government. Plutocracy.

PLEASE, Please don't move this to politics. This is a very important topic for every person alive today. Please don't make this a 'pay to respond' post.

 

[mikeofaustin]

Dave, the constitution is a very good document. But, our own government treats it like toilet paper. If you need examples, I'll be glad to oblige. But, in essence, our own constitution has been taken away from the people. I stumble to understand why you haven't already witnessed this.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

MikeofAustin,

I forgot that the Politics forum is under charter membership.


We can use the "Everything Else".

Don't want to leave anyone out, as long as its ok with the person who started this particular thread.

Beth

 

[mikeofaustin]

MikeofAustin,

I forgot that the Politics forum is under charter membership.


We can use the "Everything Else".

Don't want to leave anyone out, as long as its ok with the person who started this particular thread.

Beth

We'll, I've actually started something on 'everything else' before and it quickly turned political and got moved by our good friend. that's why I pleaded for him to not move it. I hate this this country is going down the tubes from misunderstanding, and I don't like that it might be moved to a pay only venue. But, I guess it's headed for that I guess. We'll see. Man, I hope not though. i seem to remember, I might be wrong, but at one point, the politics tab was not pay only.... (can't remember). I guess thats' the price you pay for community involvement.

 

[mikeofaustin]

Dave44,

Yea - let's just "chuck" the constitution.

Beth

Terribly unfocused idea. Nice smarmy retort tho. I do not think I warranted that as I love the Constitution, It is the best document ever written for governance, not quite pointed enough since officials try to reinterpret it all the time into a" socialist save the world despite themselves" document.
We are as far from the intentions of the Constitution as we have ever been, why would you say chuck it?

We are very much far from the constitution today. In fact, if I were to walk down the street today and 'assert' my rights based on that paper, it would mean that I would first be arrested, and only later would I have to fight MY VERY OWN Government with high paid lawyers (paid for out of my own pocket) to make them understand that we have a right to simply walk down the street and not be monitored. But, according to this new 'terrorist' law (that is unconstitutional), I'm considered a terrorist first, before I am given the right to be an American. This very law goes against the very paper that we're talking about. I find it odd, that the very first people that fought the red coats, were fighting against the very unjust crap that we are dealing with today. If you would consider, a long time ago, we were separated from the 'tirany' and the unjustness... but today, if you can imagine, the very country that we were fighting against, has it much better that we have it today. We are only a few hundred years old, and we have already started to fail miserably. Take Rome for example... they were Democratic and failed because of corruption.... Now, take every other communist country that has ever made it on paper... They are still there. Yes, it's ugly, but they are in FACT still there. I'm not honoring communism... I'm simply pointing out that THIS democracy is full of corruption. To date, I feel that the only way that we can 'get back on board' with what our original forefathers intended for us, and fought for... Is that we, as a community, will have to fight to get our own government back. The Corporation is not a human. The rich people do not have a stronger vote than the poor people have. The vote should be all equal as well it should be. It's only when people hint that they are better than the rest (aka:Rich people), do we really need to remind them that they are not the law holder... because at one point, there will be a civil revolt. AND I hope that my fellow friends will join me when it comes to fight to bring our own government back.

As a very important person said best... "Give me liberty, or give me death". BUT, I will add to his statement,....What he should have said in addition, was, "... and if you're against the American way, I'll be sure to take as many ANTI American's with me as I can".

I think Lincoln would be proud to have a solder such as me on his side.

It's sad that my own government treats this paper as toilet wipe. Why can't we not get back to basics? They had a plan, but corruption took over.

 

[mikeofaustin]

I think, that we have strayed very far from the original topic. So, if our good friend wants to move it to politics, I don't blame him. I mean, the topic that we converged on regarding this post has nothing to do with the original topic. In other words, we ' hijacked' the original thread. So, it would be a very wise choice to move this to politics... but hopefully, there is an option to give the original poster the ability to give him access to his original post, versus just lock him out. Just an idea...

(Yea, we kind of went over board on this post). Sorry.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

MikeofAustin,

The simple answer: Because people like us - me included - let the politicians do what they want.

Too many people think that you have to have the republicans in office or the democrats in office - when the fact is, both sides have been doing
a fantastic job of using the constitution NOT to give us our rights, but to take power for themselves.

Too many people think that our government should be governing morals.

Too many people think that our government should be "christian".

Too many people think that the government can solve our problems.

Much like Caesar - too many people don't get involved and think those in power are basically "honorable men" - and, we all know what happened
to Caesar. Brutus was an "honorable man".

Too many people want to "use" the constitution for their own means - but do NOT want it to be in effect if there is a particular situation that
they don't agree with.

I could use WAY more than my allotted space with the "too many people" scenario.

Beth

 

[Dave44]

Dave, the constitution is a very good document. But, our own government treats it like toilet paper. If you need examples, I'll be glad to oblige. But, in essence, our own constitution has been taken away from the people. I stumble to understand why you haven't already witnessed this.

I absolutely agree with this, maybe I said something on some weird tangent, I am about done too.
I know what oroblanco means,
And business never really pays taxes, It is a part of doing business and despite the best efforts of government it will still get passed on to the consumer until such time the government makes overhead so onerous that the business closes for lack of patronage or moves overseas.
I do agree that many big businesses are playing footsy with the government and it is getting worse, not better, I used to think that these CEOs were trying to get a leg up on the competition, and some might still be. But I believe something more nefarious is afoot. Listen to the CEOs carefully, most are lawyers, many are hard leftists and some are even playing in the little C. arena, to partially quote William Ayers. Because we have laws that are supposed to protect us from cartels and monopolies.
I flat know that one CEO of a power company said that he was hoping for cap and trade, You see he doesn't have to pay his own gasoline or electric apparently, he is so rich it doesn't matter.
I know of a senator I have written to that had a business's or two and uses them as a shield to inoculate himself even tho he votes anti business all the time. It is criminal to me.
And I am not totally Libertarian because I cannot get over some things they like. The main problem is the same problem I see with socialists. Some people cannot control themselves and on the socialist side not everyone needs controlling.
But at least the libertarians you still have freedom. And I am definitely for limited government.
And single payer is cheaper! And it is also less quality/ more Quantity. Ask A Canadian about waiting lists or having the money to get an operation done here. You know many foreigners come here and pay out of pocket for the whole procedure? Once we have the same health care they have where will they go,, Heck with that, where can we go?

 

[Dave44]

what did GE pay in taxes 2010?

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/general-electric-paid-federal-taxes-2010/story?id=13224558

And without nameing names Texas, this was one of the companies that got me P.O.d. I should have stated that I believe in equal treatment under the law and this company is playing footsy with the government,, I have heard they purchased 40 of the chevy volts from Obama,, I mean general, motors,; the Ceo is on Obamas commission on job creation or some such, They get millions in handouts because they changed their status to a lending institution, and How many credits for the so called green energy subsidies,. Oh yea, looks like a problem here.
Now read your post on the energy thing, and I am all for solar and wind, when they work. And they do not yet, the government needs to get out of the way and let the entrapenour get it done and marketable.

 

[Dave44]

O K . I know I will catch it so to clarify. There is a culture that absolutely contributes nothing, and absorbs all kinds of resources. Now that is a new development (since the 60s I believe) and this culture was taught this in the style of Cloward and Piven. If you do not know them look them up. This is a learned behavior that is not only detrimental to America it is being used to make it collapse under its entitlement burdens. Something needs to change, this is not normal behavior and is as detrimental to the souls of the people partaking in it. My explanation for what Mrs. Oroblanco went off about. Now if you all disagree with this it's ok. I am done with that and will not defend it further.

 

[Dave44]

Thank you Texas for not making me say the name . Want to guess some of the others? OOOOH they get me fired up!!!!!

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Dave44,

Here is the deal - my deal. Yes, there is a culture and folks who contribute nothing. YOU, NOR ANYONE ELSE, gets to take away their constitutional rights if they are American citizens - period, end of story. Ka-put.

That is what you proposed - not being able to vote - the taking away of a constitutional right - not-take away benefits - not - making them get
a job - not-make them work for the help they get ----- no, no - you said - they should not be allowed to vote.

You can hem and haw and explain anything you care to ----- my point was, and still is, and always will be - you don't get to pick and choose what constitutional rights an American gets - no matter what the situation.

Again, period, end of story - kaput. That is what I started with - that is what I am ending with.

Beth

 

[Dave44]

I won't hem and haw, It's yours, do what you want with it.

 

[onfire]

If this is a home building job you'll find out the reason the 6 or so per cent under cut may be in the way they build a house. here in Wisconsin they will not put a bath room in the home nor will they run any electric lines you have to sub contract these out your self. They will stud it out but no finish.

 

[Daedalus]

We had the same issues in S.W Missouri . Even came to the point where the county and State had to build special road sides so they could use there wagons on the roads .
This cost a whole lot of money and they do not pay anything towards this or the up keep of the roads .
And the list goes on.
I do not mind that they live like they want . But when we have to pay for the why they live then it becomes a problem .
They use the roads schools at some areas , rent cars to take them around but will not let any of there people have said items.
Kinda like having you cake and eating it to.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

You may be confusing Amish with Mennonites - Mennonites - same religious backgrounds, but more tolerant on things like mechanical objects,
but, either way - they pay taxes - on their land etc.

Both the Amish and the Mennonites believe in "rendering onto Caesar what is Caesars", but do not believe in commercial health insurance - which also includes Social Security. Many a battle has been waged over that since the 50's. They (Amish and Mennonites) did not consider SS a tax, as it was being hyped (since it was the IRS that tried to collect it from them), but a commercial health care policy. (The name for Social Security is:
"old age and survivors insurance" in part).

Eventually, this law was passed, signed by Johnson:

"Tucked into the 138 page bill was a clause exempting the Old Order Amish, and any other religious sect who conscientiously objected to insurance, from paying Social Security payments, providing that sect had been in existence since December 31, 1950. After Senate approval in July, the signing of the bill by President Lyndon B. Johnson on August 13, 1965, made it official and canceled tax accounts of some 15,000 Amish people amounting to nearly $250,000."

Furthermore, they do not pay health insurance of any kind - and they never collect Social Security, nor do they use medical
benefits of their states. Everything is "pay as you go".

 

[mikeofaustin]

Dave44,
Here is the deal - my deal. Yes, there is a culture and folks who contribute nothing. YOU, NOR ANYONE ELSE, gets to take away their constitutional rights if they are American citizens - period, end of story. Ka-put.

Beth

Beth, actually people are stripped of their rights every day. Every single day. And the people who do it? Our own government.