Ancient Chinese explorers landed in America

[Chadeaux]

I am so sorry to be a doubting-Thomas, but .... I'm not buying it. It's like looking into the clouds and seeing the shape of a cow, or a cat, or a clown, etc.... If you look long enough, and hard enough, at squiggly lines anywhere, you can ALWAYS find similarities to something else. The only thing it proves is: "dis-similar people coincidentally drew similar objects".

I think it's human nature to draw things similar. I read a study once that .... people, when asked to draw a "random geometric shape" (hidden-from-view of each other), would tend to draw a house shape (square with triangle on top). At first glance, you might think "aha! they're psychic!". But no. It only means that when handed a pencil and paper, might draw similar things. Doh!

Not to be a "wet blanket" here, but is there anything you don't doubt ... Thomas?

JK. No harm meant, I just thought it was funny.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Muddy, I just ran that link past a Chinese linguist I know. He studied Chinese at the Defense Language Institute for the Army, in Monterey, CA. They study not just the language, but also the culture, customs, history, etc... And he's spent time in China (met and has a Chinese native girlfriend brought back with him now too, ha). He's an avid md'r in my area, so we hunt together. He's done on-the-spot cache coin translations for persons on various forums, as he reads them with ease.

I showed him your link. And without cross-referring him to this thread (so as not to bias him), I asked him what he thought of it. Ie.: with no hint whatsover that I'd previously been a kill-joy doubting Thomas on this. Here's his exact cut-&-past reply:

"It's silly. Of all the things to write, they just happened to write the most simplistic characters that anyone could do without ever having seen Chinese. I don't buy it."

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey guy, thanx for all the time you put into this ! It was a resurrected Thread from over a year ago. And when I saw the added link, I thought "wait a minute, I know a linguist that I just met last fall...."

So I/we much appreciate the time you spent.

Conspiracy theories are just so much fun to believe in. Everyone loves to "shake up" conventional wisdom. So no doubt they'll dismiss this, and be off to the next National Enquirer type link next.

But in the meantime, this one is dealt with.

 

[Muddyhandz]

So where did the long post go that your linguist friend made?

 

[T.C.]

??

 

[releventchair]

Muddy, I just ran that link past a Chinese linguist I know. He studied Chinese at the Defense Language Institute for the Army, in Monterey, CA. They study not just the language, but also the culture, customs, history, etc... And he's spent time in China (met and has a Chinese native girlfriend brought back with him now too, ha). He's an avid md'r in my area, so we hunt together. He's done on-the-spot cache coin translations for persons on various forums, as he reads them with ease.

I showed him your link. And without cross-referring him to this thread (so as not to bias him), I asked him what he thought of it. Ie.: with no hint whatsover that I'd previously been a kill-joy doubting Thomas on this. Here's his exact cut-&-past reply:

"It's silly. Of all the things to write, they just happened to write the most simplistic characters that anyone could do without ever having seen Chinese. I don't buy it."

Glyphs should be dated first.....their origin can have been by the hands of any culture at anytime...
Once age is determined(yes the ones in the link have been approximated, but in general glyphs terms and process a date is a good start) that age can be compared to literacy rates, oral or written language ect of suspected culture of the time.
Not all folks could read and write. Still to this day.
Some were even "discouraged" from such.
Simple characters or writing from those less educated or simply not exposed to greater skills does not trouble me , as much as when ,then who.....
Too, a message or graffiti meant for any who have minimal recognition of a given language .....should be simple?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

So where did the long post go that your linguist friend made?

??

Muddyhandz, I hope you were able to read it, before he deleted it. I think he deleted it, because he had second thoughts about someone being able to identify him. He works for the govt., was army trained, and .... there could be some sort of security issues.

But if you didn't get a chance to read it before, here's the gist of it:

1) The source of that periodical being cited, in China, is akin to the "national enquirer" or Scientology type credibility. And go-figure, Chinese would take great pride in finding things that ascribe them as the "first" this or the "first" that.

2) The actual scrutiny of the scribbles/designs on the rocks, is being quite sloppy in the first place. Eg.: akin to an "@" vs an "a", etc... Ie.: Overly generous, dreamy, etc... to the letters/words it could be.

3) That interpretations (and even the sideways photography, so that the letters are now "right-side-up"), all seem to be contrived/manipulated to fit the narrative that the author had a bias for proving.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Graffiti that bears remarkable coincidental similarities exist around the world, from cultures that never met.

For example: I took shorthand class in high school (not sure if they even still teach that anymore!). A high-school friend of mine was making fun of me one day: Scribbling some supposed shorthand lines, that he was just making up as he doodled. I took the paper from him and studied what he'd done. By golly there WERE in fact some actual short-hand words on there! And if I forgave some sloppy strokes , added in some some others by imagination, and turned the page on-end at other places, I bet I could even have made a sentence.

Get it ?

 

[david680]

A lot of civilizations were here before Columbus. The evidence is inconclusive, probably for the most part because the contact was accidental or incidental. Although evidence may come to light that confirms some group otherwise than the Vikings, I would be surprised if most contacts are ever factually established to a conclusive point. Pre-Columbian Chinese in North America? I would be more surprised if they were not.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

A lot of civilizations were here before Columbus... .

Sure. And I'll bet that some of those earlier explorers were Europeans, just like Columbus. In other words, just-as-easily as one culture of people (the Chinese or whomever) might have been "first", so-too could another culture of people (the Europeans) have likewise been "first". Yet there seems to be the relish-ment of chop-licking to somehow say that it, of necessity, wasn't the Europeans.

 

[bulletprobe]

ancient chinese explored the north america lands there structures are seen in the east bay walls this was made by the first emperor of china his name is shin wa a son of god with a mortal chinese woman name mau wa this was said by my grandfather from his angel oracle named khalifa that knows the past history of americas

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....there structures are seen in the east bay walls ....

You're talking about the San Franciso east bay, right ? Like the rolling hills east of Union City, Hayward, San Leandro, etc.... right ? If so, that has long-since been debunked. Yes your theory was proposed at one time . But has since been debunked. Those stacked rock walls are also commonly seen all through the gold rush country here too. And no, they weren't made by ancient peoples. They were made by those arriving @ the gold rush, as a way to make fences, boundaries, etc....

And I'm sorry but ..... messages oracle angles are not accepted as proof. No-more-so than you would accept, as proof, if I said to you: "My oracle guardian angel revealed to me during a seance, that Columbus was the discoverer of America". You wouldn't accept that as authoritative. Right ?

 

[Bottlecapbill]

Hehehe history channel is just destroying people's minds, I swear. Some helpful tips to smelling BS: When someone tells you they dated stone..........they're lying. You can't date stone. When someone calls in an expert for advice and the expert is an author........they're lying. When someone says they found archaeological evidence.......yet there is no official dig going on there, and never has been.....they're lying. When someone says "it couldn't be the work of (insert desired phrase)" they're lying......is most certainly could. When someone says We have to keep an open mind and consider all the evidence......they're lying and actually mean "Please waste your time buying my books, and ignore the people who've actually studied this topic for their whole lives as professionals".

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... When someone says they found archaeological evidence............

What ? You're saying that not all "archaeologists" are experts? That everything they say isn't gospel truth ? SAY IT ISN"T SO ! Whenever they call in the "expert" like that on the history channel, you have to know that this is now beyond dispute, eh ? haha

There was one show I watched, where expert archaeologists were commenting on ancient swords found at the bottom of lakes, where ancient piers had been. Scuba divers had gone down and discovered them, etc... So the question remained: Why ? So the archie they were interviewing explained it to the viewers: It was an ancient ceremonial ritual where warriors would offer them to the gods, to gain favor in battle, etc... And he demonstrated how they would stand at the end of the pier, and drop them into the water.

I was cracking up laughing at how silly that explanation is. Because AS ANY of us md'rs know: there's fumble fingers losses of people dropping stuff into the water. Off boats, off piers, etc... Yes, even valuable stuff ! When I was a kid, I dropped my fishing pole off Monterey wharf. So 1000 yrs. from now, it will be found and be said to be a ceremonial religious ritual ??

 

[Bottlecapbill]

What ? You're saying that not all "archaeologists" are experts? That everything they say isn't gospel truth ? SAY IT ISN"T SO ! Whenever they call in the "expert" like that on the history channel, you have to know that this is now beyond dispute, eh ? haha

There was one show I watched, where expert archaeologists were commenting on ancient swords found at the bottom of lakes, where ancient piers had been. Scuba divers had gone down and discovered them, etc... So the question remained: Why ? So the archie they were interviewing explained it to the viewers: It was an ancient ceremonial ritual where warriors would offer them to the gods, to gain favor in battle, etc... And he demonstrated how they would stand at the end of the pier, and drop them into the water.

I was cracking up laughing at how silly that explanation is. Because AS ANY of us md'rs know: there's fumble fingers losses of people dropping stuff into the water. Off boats, off piers, etc... Yes, even valuable stuff ! When I was a kid, I dropped my fishing pole off Monterey wharf. So 1000 yrs. from now, it will be found and be said to be a ceremonial religious ritual ??

LOL I saw that one too. Some of the stuff they say on those shows is hilarious. They remind me of modern journalists. Going out of their way to avoid the obvious.

The best is that one professor who analyses the bigfoot castings. An "expert" on primate physiology or some such. He has a wall with 100 totally different foot prints and you have to wonder which species of primate ever had so many totally differently shaped feet lol. The big foot primates must only live near nuclear radiation due to the massive mutations in their feet.

 

[foiler]

When I was very young someone gave me a colored egg and told me the 'Easter Bunny' brought just for me. That was very confusing because I was unaware at the time that Santa Clause had pets.

 

[tesoroMex]

Interesting thank you for sharing the inf.

 

[Dave Rishar]

When I saw this thread get bumped I briefly read through it again in preparation of continuing the discussion, but alas, nothing new has been added. However, I did notice something that I'd passed over last time. It got me thinking a bit and I'd like to touch on it. Namely, this:

It is recorded in La Verendrye's journal (1730's) that his party came upon a tribe of "white Indians" that were 7 feet tall, living in southern Manitoba.
When other tribes were asked about these white Indians, they couldn't answer anything about them as they had no idea where they came from.

This interests me. A tribe of possible Europeans that are reportedly seven feet tall? My first thought is that this is an exaggeration, but let's assume that it's correct and dig into it. If they were indeed 7 feet tall, this implies that they could actually grow that tall in the first place. Modern medicine tells us that average height is determined by genetics and diet. Archaeology tells us that modern humans are the tallest that they've ever been, on average, almost certainly because of our diet. It would stand to reason that there's a population somewhere in Europe where the average height is around 7 feet, right? But there isn't. So why not?

I can explain this one away. There's been a lot of genetic mixing and matching over the last 1000 years. Civilations conquered and were conquered, foreign armies occasionally swept through, people moved around for various reasons, etc. The "genetically average" man living in central Europe today would be similar to his equivalent in 1000 AD, but probably not quite the same. It's possible that there was a group of 7 foot tall people somewhere, but they've simply been bred out over the centuries. I can accept that.

When Iceland comes into the picture though, I can no longer accept that. That is a very special case, and the citizens there have received some attention because of it. Here's an example: https://www.wired.com/2015/03/iceland-worlds-greatest-genetic-laboratory/ In Iceland, we have a country that's been geographically secluded from the rest of the world and was never conquered, or even attacked for that matter. Most people until fairly recently likely didn't even know that it was there. There was very, very little immigration to Iceland, as there was very, very little reason for anyone to go there. The population today is primarily descended from a small number of original settlers. As a result of this, the "genetically average" Icelander is quite similar to an Icelander of 1000 years ago; if anything, Icelanders today are taller, as they're not constantly dealing with famines and malnutrition like their ancestors were. A quick Google shows that the average height for Icelandic males is 5'11 1/2" - a bit taller than Americans, but interestingly enough, right in line with Norwegian males, and also Swedes and Danes.

So maybe there wasn't as much mixing back in Scandinavia as I'd thought. Regardless, no population today is anywhere near that tall. I have no reason to believe that people were any taller back then on average.

 

[Muddyhandz]

Are you calling the famous explorer a liar? So what if the height is 7 feet tall or 4 apples high?
There should be no white humans period in southern Manitoba during 1730, never mind that they were living like Indians in teepees and loincloths!
Why would he make that story up? He had no hidden agenda whatsoever.
Obviously to you and Tom there's no way that people unearthed 7 foot tall skeletons all over N.A. in the 1800's either. Nope, the Smithsonian didn't cover up the evidence.
Heck, the fact that there's legends about a 7 foot tall albino race during Babylonian times in Sumeria has no merit.
We're all just conspiracy nuts and you guys know better.
On a side note, I just found my second (different style) archaic copper spear point out here, where such things are rare as hell to find.
Yep, a cold hammered spear that dates before white man could even wipe his ass! Before civilization itself.
Mined from one of largest natural copper deposits in the world. Native legends of fair skinned marine men coming to the Great Lakes to trade for copper exist.
Europeans have no idea where the copper came from to make their bronze age implements.
If one was to list all the strange anomalies discovered over the last few centuries, it would make perfect sense that people visited this continent long before Columbus.
Chinese? Maybe. Vikings? Yes, there's proof of this. Other races? Why not?
If you want to take the narrow path of the skeptic and close your mind to a realm of possibilities then that's your prerogative.
Nothing feels more free than having an open mind.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Are you calling the famous explorer a liar? ..... Why would he make that story up? He had no hidden agenda whatsoever......

Muddy, there's ancient explorer accounts of ALL KINDS of crazy stuff. For example, those that said they found the "fountain of youth" saw mermaids, and so forth. Hence just because some ancient explorer was alleged to have said something, doesn't make it necessarily true. Things get embellished. Tall tales get told, etc......

....Nothing feels more free than having an open mind.

Nothing feels more intellectually responsible than to be careful and analytical when studying a subject.