✅ SOLVED Another Gun ID Needed

[Bigcypresshunter]

I have what looks like an authentic antique 12 gauge muzzleloading shotgun with a heavy duty sidelock and musket cap nipple. It says 1850 OBERNDORF on the barrel and something else on the sidelock. This shotgun is heavy duty and would hold up well if abused. It has a short smoothbore barrel and a horse ring attachment. This gun looks as if it did its killing at short range.

It may be a Mauser but I cant find it in search and I cant read the sidelock. Looks like 3 words. The second word starts with a W. The third word looks like RABBIT but first letter looks more like an F like maybe FABRIK??



Added: It may be Confederate Cavalry Carbine!

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

How to Research for Treasure Hunting and Metal Detecting From Lead Generation to Vetting - Grab it through Amazon!

[Bigcypresshunter]

Another reply came in from ffluries posting on a gun forum. http://russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&p=429458#p429458

"It predates the M1857 Zundnadel Carbine, or possibly concurrent with it, as I found an 1865 Suhl-made pecussion carbine also. It says Oberndorf on top of the barrel I found a pic that may be of the same type, but no further description:
Prussiancarbine.jpg The König Württ Fabrik may mean Kingdom of (Baden)- Wurttemburg Armories (Fabrik, factory) Even googling in German, I find little. Oberndorf am Nekar is in Baden-Württemberg, so logically, (And us Germans are nothing if not logical, ja?) it was made in Oberndorf, possibly in 1850, although that date could be a commemoration of Prussian Unification. (It would take the Prussians 21 more years to corral the rest of the independent German States) and would not have been in front-line service long, with the ZundNadel carbine adopted in 1857."

I found this http://oldguns.net/q&a2_13.htm

...when Yankee and Confederate agents came shopping for muskets in 1861 the Prussians were delighted to unload all the old fashioned stuff. These were good solid muskets, although neither especially liked or criticized during the Civil War, but being smoothbore muskets were certainly obsolete.

https://www.guns.com/news/2015/11/07/bannermans-legacy-ultimate-army-navy-store

https://www.antiquetrader.com/featu...trace-the-rise-and-fall-of-bannermans-empire/

After the Civil War ended in 1865, a young Mr. Bannerman started bidding on huge lots of captured Confederate guns, often winning as many as 11,000 at a time. When those stockpiles were sold out, he kept in touch with the Army, and every time the Ordnance Corps adopted a new piece of equipment, the wily New Yorker showed up with his checkbook sniffing around stores of recently replaced surplus gear.

Its starting to look like one of Bannermans guns. Since this musket was obsolete in Germany by 1857, it may have been purchased by the Confederates or Union Army and that may be when it was converted to percussion and the saddle ring added for Cavalry.. It may even have been cut down. Bannermans purchased used lots of Confederate firearms after the war and sold them in his military surplus store in New York, the city where this gun originated 50 years ago.. I think its possible but I need to research more. The saddle ring may be key to identification. Maybe one of the Civil War guys will recognize it?

by ffuries » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:38 pm

I tried using Prussian in my searches, but as you stated it has a very unique saddle ring setup that I haven't been able to match at all.

It matches this top rifle (left top pic) from google images but no sling attachments, with a horse ring added and barrel sawed off to carbine length.




This comment just came in.

I do like the Saddle ring bar, any chance of a close up.. Remember seeing a German made musket that was cut down and modified with a long bar like that.. It was rumored to have been brought in by the South during the Civil War and converted into Percussion. It had a long saddle ring like that one also.. I like it, it looks nice.. What caliber??

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

How to Research for Treasure Hunting and Metal Detecting From Lead Generation to Vetting - Grab it through Amazon!

[Retired Sarge]

Another interesting reply with some good information.

Help IDing Calvary Carbine - The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Another interesting reply with some good information.

Help IDing Calvary Carbine - The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

Any chance to get him to post the matching carbine photo he found?

 

[Retired Sarge]

Here you go.....

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I dont have a micrometer but the inside smoothbore barrel measures a tad less than 11/16 so what caliber is that? It converts to .65?

 

[Retired Sarge]

I dont have a micrometer but the inside smoothbore barrel measures a tad less than 11/16 so what caliber is that? It converts to .65?

Math and numbers is something that is lost on me.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Here you go.....

View attachment 1728534

Thats it alright! First photo to match up. I wish we had a link. Its rumored to be Confederate but you know how that goes. Everything is claimed Confederate until proven otherwise lol. http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=3449

View attachment 1728537

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I think its .69 caliber.

...the Prussian muskets likely imported for use during the Civil War. These were around .69 to .71 caliber smoothbores.

https://www.virginiarelics.com/bran.../69-caliber-rifle-musket-bullet-aka-prussian/

 

[Retired Sarge]

Thats it alright! First photo to match up. I wish we had a link. Its rumored to be Confederate but you know how that goes. Everything is claimed Confederate until proven otherwise lol. Help IDing Calvary Carbine - Surplus Rifle Forum - www.surplusrifleforum.com

View attachment 1728537 View attachment 1728539

Sent him a reply to see if he had the link/site for the picture still.

 

[namxat]

Sorry, it is most manifestly not Prussian, since it bears Württemberg factory markings.

If anything it was shot at prussians in 1866. Together with the Vereinsgewehre..... Regrettably it did not stop the prussians.

I am no gun expert, yet I think it was extensively modified. The area around the nipple seems to be sawn out afterwards.


Greets

Namxat

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Sorry, it is most manifestly not Prussian, since it bears Württemberg factory markings.

If anything it was shot at prussians in 1866. Together with the Vereinsgewehre..... Regrettably it did not stop the prussians.

I am no gun expert, yet I think it was extensively modified. The area around the nipple seems to be sawn out afterwards.


Greets

Namxat

Not Prussian but German? Yes sir, its been modified. I believe it was converted from a smoothbore flintlock. Its stamped on the barrel 1850. Wasnt it common practice to convert these old flintlocks? By 1857, a smoothbore flintlock musket would have been antiquated in Germany, thats why they were happy to unload them to America at 7 dollars each.. Some of us think this .69 caliber musket was converted during the War of Northern Aggression (the American Civil War) to musket cap, sawed off to a Carbine and a horse ring added for Cavalry.

What do you think? I just need to know who converted it the Germans or the Confederates? In your opinion, was this type of Cavalry conversion, of antiquated weapons, popular in Germany in the 1860s?

This weapon was found in New York and its been in storage for 50 years. Many think they recognize it as a Bannermans gun. Bannerman purchased large quantities of confiscated Confederate firearms after the war and sold them in his store in New York.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Was a smoothbore antiquated in Germany in 1861 or just in Prussia? Im not real versed on 1860's German history.


I went back and reread your posts.

I tried to look some German sources, but it is scarce. Most info is about 1857 or later when they manufacured a standard gun for three germman states. Muzzleloader, minnie style.

1850 is according to one source the year they got an order for rifled muskets. So this may actually still smoothbore by design.

Yes definitely a smoothbore. I originally thought it was a 12 gauge shotgun.

 

[namxat]

Yessir,

German but not prussian.

A very condensed history of Germany in the 19th Century:

Napoeloeon left Germany shattered into a multitude of King-, Duke-, Prince- and other-doms. A map of Germany looked litterally like a dog had barfed up his food again.

In addition, there were tensions among these states. The two strongest states were Austria and Prussia. Prussia gained power and size during the 19th century while Austria, ....eehm well... if you know Austrians, they gain nothing by work or war.


Prussia was kinda of admired (it worked like a clockwork, efficient and rational) and hated (militaristic and powerhungry. "Other countries have an army, in PRussia the army has alos a country").

This kinda culminated in the "German War" 1866 were Austria and the good Germans went to war (over a total nil thing, Administration of SChlesig Holstein) with the bad germans around prussia. Württemberg was one of the good Germans and lost since, ehhmm well, prussia had better guns (the Dreyse Needlegun) and worked like a clockwork. So if your gun was in the Württemberg arsenal there is a good chance it was fired at prussian instead by prussians.

Germany finally re-united 5 years later after having soundly beaten France in the Fraco-Prussian war under, as the name implies, prussian leadership. Austria kinda left Germany and decided to do their own thing.

Some were happy, some were not. The Bavarian Prince-Regent had since 1866 a prussian bullet lodged in the knee and kept telling this to all foreign visitors.

Rest is history, prussian militarism took over whole Germany, yet failed in WWI and WWII.

Being a direct descendant of several man that fought against prussia 1866 I am somewhat pissed if Prussia is equated with pre 1871 germany. Its a bit like calling the confedarte flag the stars and stripes in the southern us.

Sorry for the rant, back to the gun.

Info before the 1857 Vereinsgewehr is scarce on the Oberndorf Factory. Several sources say the copied the french Charleville musket (which was nearly as univeral as the bRown bess). The sideplate of converted, percussion charlevilles look very close to your sideplate, yet I cant find a Würtemmberg marking sideplate, so this is my personal guess. If the gun left the factory as short carbine or was later converted IDK, but think both is possible.

Greets

Namxat

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Is it Bavarian? Springfield Armory Museum - Collection Record

 

[Retired Sarge]

Was a smoothbore antiquated in Germany in 1861 or just in Prussia? Im not real versed on 1860's German history.


I went back and reread your posts.


Yes definitely a smoothbore. I originally thought it was a 12 gauge shotgun.

Are you sure it's a smooth bore, or is it just worn out? My 1863 Snider-Enfield rifling is so worn it appears as light scratches in the barrel.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Yessir,

German but not prussian.

A very condensed history of Germany in the 19th Century:

Napoeloeon left Germany shattered into a multitude of King-, Duke-, Prince- and other-doms. A map of Germany looked litterally like a dog had barfed up his food again.

In addition, there were tensions among these states. The two strongest states were Austria and Prussia. Prussia gained power and size during the 19th century while Austria, ....eehm well... if you know Austrians, they gain nothing by work or war.


Prussia was kinda of admired (it worked like a clockwork, efficient and rational) and hated (militaristic and powerhungry. "Other countries have an army, in PRussia the army has alos a country").

This kinda culminated in the "German War" 1866 were Austria and the good Germans went to war (over a total nil thing, Administration of SChlesig Holstein) with the bad germans around prussia. Württemberg was one of the good Germans and lost since, ehhmm well, prussia had better guns (the Dreyse Needlegun) and worked like a clockwork. So if your gun was in the Württemberg arsenal there is a good chance it was fired at prussian instead by prussians.

Germany finally re-united 5 years later after having soundly beaten France in the Fraco-Prussian war under, as the name implies, prussian leadership. Austria kinda left Germany and decided to do their own thing.

Some were happy, some were not. The Bavarian Prince-Regent had since 1866 a prussian bullet lodged in the knee and kept telling this to all foreign visitors.

Rest is history, prussian militarism took over whole Germany, yet failed in WWI and WWII.

Being a direct descendant of several man that fought against prussia 1866 I am somewhat pissed if Prussia is equated with pre 1871 germany. Its a bit like calling the confedarte flag the stars and stripes in the southern us.

Sorry for the rant, back to the gun.

Info before the 1857 Vereinsgewehr is scarce on the Oberndorf Factory. Several sources say the copied the french Charleville musket (which was nearly as univeral as the bRown bess). The sideplate of converted, percussion charlevilles look very close to your sideplate, yet I cant find a Würtemmberg marking sideplate, so this is my personal guess. If the gun left the factory as short carbine or was later converted IDK, but think both is possible.

Greets

Namxat

Great information. My Grandmother was from Germany.

Did the Germans fight the Prussians with smoothbores? Could the Germans have used this saddle ring horse attachment for their Cavalry? Have you ever seen it before? So far only one matching photo has surfaced but no information as of yet was obtained.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Are you sure it's a smooth bore, or is it just worn out? My 1863 Snider-Enfield rifling is so worn it appears as light scratches in the barrel.

I looked inside with a flashlight and I can see no rifling. Are we all in agreement that this is a converted flintlock? It looks as if it was sawed off to me but a ring with a brass sight was added and it looks very professionally done. And there is nowhere to hold a ramrod. Im gonna look for my 12 gauge cleaning brushes and try to remove the dirt inside and take a better look. But I dont see any sign of rifling so far and the barrel is no thicker than a piece of conduit pipe.



I should be able to carefully knock those rings off by hitting them forward and remove the barrel tang screw to remove the barrel for cleaning.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Once you oil up the necessary screws, go slow removing them. Sometimes it helps to start loosening until it gets tight, then re-tighten the screw and repeat. Also if needed, take a wooden dowel and a mallet, place the dowel against the barrel bands and whack the dowel with the mallet to get the bands moving.

Oh and a note, the rear band looks to have a shim under it, if possible try and keep it intact. Looks like it's been there a long time. Too bad we are too far a part in Florida, I'd take it apart for you, clean it, oil it and reassemble, probably all in one day.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I have a ton of experience taking things apart. I also used to work on antique outboard motors used in saltwater. If I could get those apart this should be easy.

 

[Retired Sarge]

I have a ton of experience taking things apart. I also used to work on antique outboard motors used in saltwater. If I could get those apart this should be easy.

Cool deal, didn't mean for it to sound like I was implying you were incapable.