✅ SOLVED Another Gun ID Needed

[Bigcypresshunter]

I have what looks like an authentic antique 12 gauge muzzleloading shotgun with a heavy duty sidelock and musket cap nipple. It says 1850 OBERNDORF on the barrel and something else on the sidelock. This shotgun is heavy duty and would hold up well if abused. It has a short smoothbore barrel and a horse ring attachment. This gun looks as if it did its killing at short range.

It may be a Mauser but I cant find it in search and I cant read the sidelock. Looks like 3 words. The second word starts with a W. The third word looks like RABBIT but first letter looks more like an F like maybe FABRIK??



Added: It may be Confederate Cavalry Carbine!

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

I think its a musket. Found this. Feb 2013 Questions And Answers

Your musket is one of the Prussian muskets likely imported for use during the Civil War. These were around .69 to .71 caliber smoothbores. I don�t recall the exact model designation for these, but they were basically circa 1815-1820, with the actual date of manufacture marked on the buttplate along with the abbreviations for the unit to which it was assigned. These were converted to percussion around 1840, but rendered obsolete with the Prussian adoption of the Dreyse �Zundnaedelgewehre� needle gun in 1841. So, when Yankee and Confederate agents came shopping for muskets in 1861 the Prussians were delighted to unload all the old fashioned stuff. These were good solid muskets, although neither especially liked or criticized during the Civil War, but being smoothbore muskets were certainly obsolete. Values are modest, and I usually see average condition examples priced around $650-850 retail. John Spangler

 

[Joe-Dirt]

From what I can see, it’s looks to be in pretty good shape beside the surface rust. Post a picture of the entire gun if you can. These guns can be fun to shoot if you get them restored/check by a gunsmith, I have a US model 1816 converted to percussion by the Frankford arsenal. They actually went as far as putting rear sites on them but it’s still tough to hit what you're aiming at. A lot of surplus weapons brought into the country during the war of Yankee oppression were sold to settlers moving west and were converted to shotguns, cut down and abused in other ways. Anyway, it might be a fun project to restore, I’ve done a few old smoothbore muskets over the years, I’ll post a picture if I have any on my iPad.

The picture I posted is a model 1816 manufactured by R.Johnson, Middleton CT. In 1830,then converted to percussion probably in the 1840’s or 50’s with a Belgian cone style conversion. My other 1816 has a H&P style conversion similar to yours. When I bought it, it was covered in a very thick coat of dried oil that took a few days to dissolve completely and I had the barrel re-lined by Bobby Hoyt in Pennsylvania. It fired, but you couldn’t hit a barn if you were standing in it. Good luck

 

[namxat]

Hi,

I think its a pre-Mauser Mauser.

Mauser developed in Oberndorf from a state owned gun factory or Arsenal.

I can read "Oberndorff" and Köngl (ich) Württ (embergische) Fabrik, the later an abbreviation of Royal Würtembergian Factory.


Greets

Namxat

oops forgot link, sorry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Königlich_Württembergische_Gewehrfabrik

 

[Reanm8er]

Greetings Bch,

This could be one of two things IMO. I have a confederate naval shotgun made by the Barnes Co of London and it's marked Tower.
I believe this firearm is a pre-Mauser just like Namxat said. It could also have been a Naval carbine. When you went to a surrender
center you surrendered your long gun. You had the choice of waiting to have yours bored out or pick one from the stack already
bored "Re-constructed". This was a consideration that many men were far from home and needed something to forage for food with.
I've dove hunted with mine. I used an appropriate black powder charge a Remington power piston and an over the shot card,
(cardboard disc). Best dove hunt I ever had. Basically a cylinder bore.

Best wishes and great find!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Hi,

I think its a pre-Mauser Mauser.

Mauser developed in Oberndorf from a state owned gun factory or Arsenal.

I can read "Oberndorff" and Köngl (ich) Württ (embergische) Fabrik, the later an abbreviation of Royal Würtembergian Factory.


Greets

Namxat

oops forgot link, sorry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Königlich_Württembergische_Gewehrfabrik

That looks like what it says. Thank you for the great ID. But looks like two letters switched
KONIG:
WURTT FABRIK

Here are more pics. Thanks for the great ID namxat! Could it be KONIG: or am I seeing things?

 

[Retired Sarge]

Hey that's a cavalry carbine, based on the ring and bar on the left side of the rifle.

 

[namxat]

I read Konig:, too. Smaller above Wuert.Fabrik

If the : on Ö and Ü are missing or just not visible I dont know.

I tried to look some German sources, but it is scarce. Most info is about 1857 or later when they manufacured a standard gun for three germman states. Muzzleloader, minnie style.

1850 is according to one source the year they got an order for rifled muskets. So this may actually still smoothbore by design.

I also dont find any any photo of the plate thats really fitting. Could that be a gun that was modified ?

Greets

Namxat

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It might be WERTT. There are definitely two Ts. (I corrected my post by adding the second T to my reply #6) Its either WERTT, WIRTT, or WURTT I think.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Hey that's a cavalry carbine, based on the ring and bar on the left side of the rifle.

Yes I mentioned the horse ring in my original post but didnt have the photo.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Just not finding an example of this rifle in my European Carbine search.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Just not finding an example of this rifle in my European Carbine search.

If you have enough pictures and you want to post either of these gun on a gun forum, you can. It looks like it may have some loose ends.

 

[Retired Sarge]

If you have enough pictures and you want to post either of these gun on a gun forum, you can. It looks like it may have some loose ends.

Here you go........

Black Powder Forum - The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

Help IDing Calvary Carbine - Surplus Rifle Forum - www.surplusrifleforum.com

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

https://www.guns.com/news/2015/11/07/bannermans-legacy-ultimate-army-navy-store

After the Civil War ended in 1865, a young Mr. Bannerman started bidding on huge lots of captured Confederate guns, often winning as many as 11,000 at a time. When those stockpiles were sold out, he kept in touch with the Army, and every time the Ordnance Corps adopted a new piece of equipment, the wily New Yorker showed up with his checkbook sniffing around stores of recently replaced surplus gear.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Found something here but no photos. It appears to have the same lockplate but i dont have an octangular barrel. Springfield Armory Museum - Collection Record,


"Lock originally marked Konig. Wurtt. Fabrik. Originally produced in flintlock 1826-28; converted to percussion 1824-36. "

 

[Retired Sarge]

If you have enough pictures and you want to post either of these gun on a gun forum, you can. It looks like it may have some loose ends.

First reply. FYI in the white means it wasn't blued it was left in a natural state, hence the silver looking patches.

"Your not searching the correct countries, that's a Prussian military carbine, mid 19th century, I don't remember the name or model if it had such. Pre unification of the German states, very distinctive lock shape and saddle ring setup. I think this was in one of my Bannerman catalogs, I don't know were I put the catalogs at the moment, but they probably called it Prussian also but omitted model, if it was a specific model. Very nice find, these were in the white, I would use evaporust to clean that. I have had good results cleaning tools and phonograph parts that are also in the white. Removes only the rust, scrub with soft brush to a gray patina."

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

First reply. FYI in the white means it wasn't blued it was left in a natural state, hence the silver looking patches.

"Your not searching the correct countries, that's a Prussian military carbine, mid 19th century, I don't remember the name or model if it had such. Pre unification of the German states, very distinctive lock shape and saddle ring setup. I think this was in one of my Bannerman catalogs, I don't know were I put the catalogs at the moment, but they probably called it Prussian also but omitted model, if it was a specific model. Very nice find, these were in the white, I would use evaporust to clean that. I have had good results cleaning tools and phonograph parts that are also in the white. Removes only the rust, scrub with soft brush to a gray patina."

Yes I noticed that it was never blued so thats why I thought apple cider vinegar might work instead of scrubbing with wire brush or steel wool... When I search these words konig wurtt fabrik I found this photo but the link no longer exists. The top one looks like my musket but mine is the carbine version. BTW the musket came from New York 50 years ago if that means anything. Thanks for helping ffluries.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Why would there be nowhere to hold a ramrod?

I looked all over for markings and it has a serial number and I notice almost every metal screw has a number on it, some examples are 10,23,45,47

The musket is solid from top to bottom. Its very heavy duty. Its not flashy but its a bad azz gun. The hammer spring is very strong. I like it and I think its all original parts. I believe I can get it tore down for cleaning. If I can convert to shotgun, I might be able to use it for hunting..

 

[Retired Sarge]

Maybe a Vereinsgewehr Rifle aka Vereinsgewehr 1857, there was a Cavalry Carbine 1860 version of the Vereinsgewehr 1857 (Actually there were 3 carbine versions, the Cavalry Carbine, Rider Carbine, and Pioneer Carbine).

"The Cavalry Carbine of 1860 was the first carbine version of the Vereinsgewehr Rifle and was designed specifically for the cavalry. The trend would be followed in the other German states, with the Rider Carbine and Pioneer Carbine being developed in the same year. All featured a 19.7in (500mm) barrel and shorter ramrod."

https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/Vereinsgewehr_Rifle_1857

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Maybe a Vereinsgewehr Rifle aka Vereinsgewehr 1857, there was a Cavalry Carbine 1860 version of the Vereinsgewehr 1857 (Actually there were 3 carbine versions, the Cavalry Carbine, Rider Carbine, and Pioneer Carbine).

"The Cavalry Carbine of 1860 was the first carbine version of the Vereinsgewehr Rifle and was designed specifically for the cavalry. The trend would be followed in the other German states, with the Rider Carbine and Pioneer Carbine being developed in the same year. All featured a 19.7in (500mm) barrel and shorter ramrod."

https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/Vereinsgewehr_Rifle_1857

Lockplate, trigger guard, hammer, sights doesnt match with the photo in the link