Another Kick at the Can

[romeo-1]

I found this a couple years back and posted it but we were never able to identify it. I am confident that it is military related but I have no idea as to who may have worn it and during what time frame. As you can see on the back there are three attachment loops... There are a lot of new members on the site identifying finds so I figured now would be a good time to re-post. Found on the east coast of Canada. Any ideas?

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

I dont think it tells us anything we dont already know but here is a link on Canadian Heritage. http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/symbl/arm2-eng.cfm

At the base of the arms are the floral emblems associated with the Canadian Monarchy: the English rose, the Scottish thistle, the French fleur-de-lis and the Irish shamrock.

On top of the "achievement of the arms of Canada" is the imperial crown which is indicative of the presence of a monarch as Canada's Head of State.

 

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[JakefaePa]

I thought you had it there BCH , it has put a new angle on things thats for sure.Just that pesky shamrock is missing which i think makes it interesting.
I am going to consider a huge turn around at this point as i believe you have hit closest to the mark with it being Canadian.That makes sense to me as ive never thought it looked much like an English rose and the thistles were quite prominent.The crown wasnt a style i had seen or remembered much seeing in Scotland,it does however look just like the Canadian version youve shown us here.

Canadians have that Scots heritage explains the thistle , explains the rose in a style i wasnt used to seeing , and the crown seems to be the capper on it...excuse the pun..i think you nailed it BCH.... dont know why the shamrock is absent though


edited to add ...or is it ? What is that 3 leaf shape at the bottem of the badge ..could it be ?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

edited to add ...or is it ? What is that 3 leaf shape at the bottem of the badge ..could it be ?

Good eye. It may be a shamrock. It doesnt look like a pointed saw edged rose leaf. It was found in Canada and the fleur-de-lis is already represented in the crown. So all four floral emblems asasociated with the Canadian Monarchy are represented.

 

[romeo-1]

edited to add ...or is it ? What is that 3 leaf shape at the bottem of the badge ..could it be ?

Good eye. It may be a shamrock. It doesnt look like a pointed saw edged rose leaf. It was found in Canada and the fleur-de-lis is already represented in the crown. So all four floral emblems asasociated with the Canadian Monarchy are represented.

Not only was it found in Canada, it was found in Nova Scotia (Thistle).

 

[JakefaePa]

That should narrow it down if it is definately a shamrock and it does represent the Canadian monarchy , funny how we all missed that for days , me in particular whinging about a missing shamrock and there it is right there all the time..weird

Any chance of a better pic of that 3rd link on the reverse Romeo1? The one that is at the back of the rose.


Edited to add , maybe not so much a better picture but a better idea of are those lopp link things bent buckled out of original shape or do they appear to be as intended ?
I ask as i think its odd that link 1 with the chain attached is totally different from the other two,its like that chain never did connect on that other side at all , that loop matches the one at the bottem behind the rose.

 

[romeo-1]

That should narrow it down if it is definately a shamrock and it does represent the Canadian monarchy , funny how we all missed that for days , me in particular whinging about a missing shamrock and there it is right there all the time..weird

Any chance of a better pic of that 3rd link on the reverse Romeo1? The one that is at the back of the rose.


Edited to add , maybe not so much a better picture but a better idea of are those lopp link things bent buckled out of original shape or do they appear to be as intended ?
I ask as i think its odd that link 1 with the chain attached is totally different from the other two,its like that chain never did connect on that other side at all , that loop matches the one at the bottem behind the rose.

My impression is that the chain and chain loop are purely ornamental and that the other two loops were for attaching the piece to..whatever...

I am very pleased with this thread...I've had this item for a couple years and never even considered that the clover was present...

Here's a little incentive...$50.00 to the person who posts a picture of the exact piece...it must be documented somewhere...

 

[CRUSADER]

I'm pretty sure its a hat badge. The two smaller loops go through holes in the fabric & a split pin holds it in place. Not sure what the chain is for, but probably just decor.

 

[taz42o]

The chain looks like chinstrap from old helmet witch had a leather or clothe backing. Most helmets i have looked at are front view though. But there is a piece on each side that srtap attaches to. Could it be one of those? I dont know how they were attached to helmet.

 

[JakefaePa]

I like Crusaders pin theory , it fits.That means the chain connected to something else other than the badge.It didnt just hang there.

The pin theory is correct i think , Canadian military is quickly becoming unlikely.

What i do know is this , its St Edwards crown used for coronation ceremony.Last used in 1937 as Victoria did not use it and it was too heavy.
It was certainly used before so could date back , it signifies a King for sure.

Its used as a symbol of authority in commenwealth countrys so my best guess is Police , Fire , Civil service of some type.
Hat badge or perhaps a cloak device which ties in with the chain to one side.

With this info id think we'll have an ID soon , 50 bucks is mighty generous..its needle in a haystack stuff though , could be any branch of authority type service.

 

[JakefaePa]

I believe i know what it is .. we covered this ground already but this puts it beyond doubt i reckon as to what it is.

The Yeoman coat of arms is a rose,thistle,shamrock crowned with St Edwards crown.

Ill hope to find conclusive evidence of it but as far as what it is..there it is..your missing one.

 

[romeo-1]

If we could figure out the "when" we could probably find a conclusive pic...I wonder if there is a resource for Beefeaters through the ages...

 

[CRUSADER]

If we could figure out the "when" we could probably find a conclusive pic...I wonder if there is a resource for Beefeaters through the ages...

1890-1920

 

[JakefaePa]

While i do strongly feel it is a cloak clasp now i wont limit my search to beefeaters , those very symbols were used as a sign of authority in commenwealth countrys.
Could well be Police i think in Canada somewhere turn of the century.For some reason thats my gut feeling on it.

 

[CRUSADER]

I like the cloak clasp theory as it still attaches to cloth which I sure this piece did, at first I thought a hat although couldn't work out the chain thing. Now with a cloak it makes perfect sense & I too am sticking to my timeframe:

1890-1920 Cloak/Hat Badge (maybe not military but no idea really!)

 

[Harry_Morant]

I believe i know what it is .. we covered this ground already but this puts it beyond doubt i reckon as to what it is.

The Yeoman coat of arms is a rose,thistle,shamrock crowned with St Edwards crown.

Ill hope to find conclusive evidence of it but as far as what it is..there it is..your missing one.

And as far as I know they are limited to home service in Britain so it begs the question why would it be in Canada.

 

[CRUSADER]

I believe i know what it is .. we covered this ground already but this puts it beyond doubt i reckon as to what it is.

The Yeoman coat of arms is a rose,thistle,shamrock crowned with St Edwards crown.

Ill hope to find conclusive evidence of it but as far as what it is..there it is..your missing one.

And as far as I know they are limited to home service in Britain so it begs the question why would it be in Canada.

Don't start that one, its detecting not timemachining. I have so many questions like that, my head might burst.

 

[JakefaePa]

I believe i know what it is .. we covered this ground already but this puts it beyond doubt i reckon as to what it is.

The Yeoman coat of arms is a rose,thistle,shamrock crowned with St Edwards crown.

Ill hope to find conclusive evidence of it but as far as what it is..there it is..your missing one.

And as far as I know they are limited to home service in Britain so it begs the question why would it be in Canada.

People retire and move to pastures new.I know for instance when my enlistment was over i was allowed to keep my uniforms and insignia , if i was to lose those one might ask what is a USN insignia doing in central Scotland..same with my Dad , if he had lost his silver wings from his uniform long ago people would be asking what is a USAF device doing here.

Besides all that i didnt plump for a Yeoman device but rather had said they use the same symbols ie rose , thistle , shamrock , i also added so do the Commenwealth countries.
I used the Yeoman picture to show exactly how the clasp fastened on and it is a ringer for the method of clasping , i used the police cloak to show that Yes the police had the same thing , my bet is on its a Canadian police cloak clasp as id said earlier.

From personal experience i once found a palestine coin in the woods of Lanark while detecting...how did that get there ? Its one of the most interesting aspects of metal detecting , finding something that just shouldnt be there.

 

[Harry_Morant]

I believe i know what it is .. we covered this ground already but this puts it beyond doubt i reckon as to what it is.

The Yeoman coat of arms is a rose,thistle,shamrock crowned with St Edwards crown.

Ill hope to find conclusive evidence of it but as far as what it is..there it is..your missing one.

And as far as I know they are limited to home service in Britain so it begs the question why would it be in Canada.

People retire and move to pastures new.I know for instance when my enlistment was over i was allowed to keep my uniforms and insignia , if i was to lose those one might ask what is a USN insignia doing in central Scotland..same with my Dad , if he had lost his silver wings from his uniform long ago people would be asking what is a USAF device doing here.

Besides all that i didnt plump for a Yeoman device but rather had said they use the same symbols ie rose , thistle , shamrock , i also added so do the Commenwealth countries.
I used the Yeoman picture to show exactly how the clasp fastened on and it is a ringer for the method of clasping , i used the police cloak to show that Yes the police had the same thing , my bet is on its a Canadian police cloak clasp as id said earlier.

From personal experience i once found a palestine coin in the woods of Lanark while detecting...how did that get there ? Its one of the most interesting aspects of metal detecting , finding something that just shouldnt be there.

Yes your right I guess, some people do like to still play dress ups in the woods - personally I prefer not to walk around in the wild with my medals and badges from my military service

But seriously folks......I think you are on the money with the cloak clasp idea. Personally I think its either a British or Canadian Unit early 1800s where the Crown, Rose, Thistle and Shamrock symbols were commonly found in one form or another.

The British 104th Foot (New Brunswick Regiment) 1806 and the Canadian Fencibles Regiment in 1811, the Canadian 93rd Sutherland Highlanders 1834 were all presented with Standards which had the rose, thistle, shamrock symbols represented.

 

[leddel]

i can tell you it is without a doubt a cloak or cape clasp( only half as the other half would look exactly the same but would have the hook part instead of the chain) i found one earlier this year and had it positvely identified , yours does look military but i cannot help with what type of military . mine also looks military but was labeled as pre-civil war era non- regulation issue probably worn by an officer heres a few pictures of mine . yours is a very nice piece congrats and sorry i couldn't be more help

 

[romeo-1]

That's a nice one Leddel!! I think we can all agree now as to what it is...now I would like to know when it is and who would have worn it...that might be impossible I realize but there is a chance...