Another Newbie question on the Explorer

[TexasTal]

After having this xs for 4 days now and finding a few pennies i finally got around to air testing it...lol. What my question is: On the explorer xs with a 10.5 dd standard coil is 7.5 inches on a silver quarter acceptable or a sign of a bad coil, circuit, etc. I was in -16 iron mask with maxx sens and response set on deep. Any help will be appreciated...HH and thanks.. Tal

 

[Iron Patch]

After having this xs for 4 days now and finding a few pennies i finally got around to air testing it...lol. What my question is: On the explorer xs with a 10.5 dd standard coil is 7.5 inches on a silver quarter acceptable or a sign of a bad coil, circuit, etc. I was in -16 iron mask with maxx sens and response set on deep. Any help will be appreciated...HH and thanks.. Tal

Testing inside will kill the depth if you are in auto sense.



....I would not test an Explorer in that way, real detecting is the only true test.

 

[Ricardo_NY1]

After having this xs for 4 days now and finding a few pennies i finally got around to air testing it...lol. What my question is: On the explorer xs with a 10.5 dd standard coil is 7.5 inches on a silver quarter acceptable or a sign of a bad coil, circuit, etc. I was in -16 iron mask with maxx sens and response set on deep. Any help will be appreciated...HH and thanks.. Tal

Testing inside will kill the depth if you are in auto sense.



....I would not test an Explorer in that way, real detecting is the only true test.

Absolutely. An Explorer should not be tested indoors. Too much common interference. The manual warns against it. And it is my understanding that air testing an Explorer will produce poor numbers. It is when this machine is looking through the ground that you will see its muscle. A quarter at the depth you mention 7.5 will sound loud and crisp. It can read a quarter deeper of course (In the ground). I have the same machine you have.

 

[TexasTal]

Thanks for the reply guys. Just a quick update on the explorer. I have now used it for 25 hrs. So That ranks me just above absolute beginner...lol. I have now dug 245 coins with the thing, in my yard and my moms. My yard is so trashy it wont keep a threshold. I went to iron mask -12 and ferrous tones. As you know there is no mistaking dimes and quarters. But I suprised myself, I can tell a copper from a zinc penny. I bought the thing from a local pawn shop real cheap. So i was worried that something was wrong with it. But after a week and all the finds i think it is working ok. One question though. i can only run the sens at 19-20 before it becomes unstable. Is that because of my ground or a possible sign of trouble? Heres a few of my "good" finds, 2 silver ike dimes a silver 20 centavos a wheatie and a war nickle. A "national defense" service medal and 3 silver plated spoons that look like copper..lol BTW when i did the "very first silver happy dance" my wife looked at me like i had lost it...lol..that was priceless...Untill next time. Cya from NE Texas..HH Tal

 

[Iron Patch]

Thanks for the reply guys. Just a quick update on the explorer. I have now used it for 25 hrs. So That ranks me just above absolute beginner...lol. I have now dug 245 coins with the thing, in my yard and my moms. My yard is so trashy it wont keep a threshold. I went to iron mask -12 and ferrous tones. As you know there is no mistaking dimes and quarters. But I suprised myself, I can tell a copper from a zinc penny. I bought the thing from a local pawn shop real cheap. So i was worried that something was wrong with it. But after a week and all the finds i think it is working ok. One question though. i can only run the sens at 19-20 before it becomes unstable. Is that because of my ground or a possible sign of trouble? Heres a few of my "good" finds, 2 silver ike dimes a silver 20 centavos a wheatie and a war nickle. A "national defense" service medal and 3 silver plated spoons that look like copper..lol BTW when i did the "very first silver happy dance" my wife looked at me like i had lost it...lol..that was priceless...Untill next time. Cya from NE Texas..HH Tal

Don't forget your iron mask setting will have a lot to do with how stable the detector is as will auto sense vs man. sense. I run high man. sense at -14 IM and in conductive, anyone new to what I listen to would be lost. What I'd suggest, and is what I did, every month or two bump a notch up on your sense and one lower on your iron mask. You're probably a little ahead of yourself now so maybe get used to those settings for a few months. One thing a lot of people don't realize is the null in the sound plays a huge roll in determining those iffy sounds. People who jump from setting to setting will never learn (be able to hear) those very subtle sounds (combination of null and target) that tip you off to the proper ID.

 

[Coin Shooter]

Thanks for the reply guys. Just a quick update on the explorer. I have now used it for 25 hrs. So That ranks me just above absolute beginner...lol. I have now dug 245 coins with the thing, in my yard and my moms. My yard is so trashy it wont keep a threshold. I went to iron mask -12 and ferrous tones. As you know there is no mistaking dimes and quarters. But I suprised myself, I can tell a copper from a zinc penny. I bought the thing from a local pawn shop real cheap. So i was worried that something was wrong with it. But after a week and all the finds i think it is working ok. One question though. i can only run the sens at 19-20 before it becomes unstable. Is that because of my ground or a possible sign of trouble? Heres a few of my "good" finds, 2 silver ike dimes a silver 20 centavos a wheatie and a war nickle. A "national defense" service medal and 3 silver plated spoons that look like copper..lol BTW when i did the "very first silver happy dance" my wife looked at me like i had lost it...lol..that was priceless...Untill next time. Cya from NE Texas..HH Tal

Don't forget your iron mask setting will have a lot to do with how stable the detector is as will auto sense vs man. sense. I run high man. sense at -14 IM and in conductive, anyone new to what I listen to would be lost. What I'd suggest, and is what I did, every month or two bump a notch up on your sense and one lower on your iron mask. You're probably a little ahead of yourself now so maybe get used to those settings for a few months. One thing a lot of people don't realize is the null in the sound plays a huge roll in determining those iffy sounds. People who jump from setting to setting will never learn (be able to hear) those very subtle sounds (combination of null and target) that tip you off to the proper ID.

Could you talk a little more about "(combination of null and target) that tip you off to the proper ID."

I have read the SE manual a few times, as I'm thinking of getting one very soon, and know what it says about how and when it happens but there is no substitute for experience, or listening to someone with experience.

 

[EasyMoney]

I don't want to burst anybody's bubble, but there is no detector in the world that goes "deeper in the ground than it does in air". Even the Mighty Nexus was found to be incapable of this feat during a test at Gary's in the UK against several other detectors.. Minelabs are included in this lot too.

My Sov Elite gets about 1/2" better than [A-N-Y] Explorer in the world if there have been no modifications done to them, and the Sov GT does the same because it and the Elite have the same circuitry but different controls, but none of the multi-freqs have superior air OR ground depth over other detectors running with a single VLF frequency. The many programs and constantly changing different frequencies found on the Explorers limit the depth capabilities. A quality upper-end priced single freq detector will ALWAYS obtain a little bit better depth than a quality upper-end multi-freq currently made, or made within the last 8 years. *The constant frequency changing with the Explorers is more pronounced and power-robbing than on the Sovs, and that is why the Sovs are able to run with higher gain (Power) and to obtain a little bit better depth.

In the words of many well-noted detector engineers we all know; "there is no possibility that a detector can get better depth in the ground than it does in the air". "It is impossible"..

If iron is buried for a few years, it becomes oxidized and therefore combines (covalently) with other minerals in the soil and that too becomes oxidized, thereby making a "halo effect", or so it is called. Still, the detector does not "detect deeper in the ground" because the detector is reading the ghost or halo, or oxidized material surrounding the target, and not just the piece of iron. Iron is the ONLY metal known to have this capacity to bond with other minerals in the ground this much or this dramaticaly. Gold basically has absolutely zero bleed-off unlike the characteristics of iron, and only copper and brass and other semi-precious metals can do this (extremely) marginally, at best. Detectors DO NOT have the capacity or the innate ablity to read such infinitisimal amounts of bonding such as this, so the discussion becomes not only moot in value, it also becomes basically worthless to even mention.

You will not be able to get better depth in the ground than your detector reads in the air. It is chemically, physically, and electronically impossible. Who ever said that a Minelab vlf or multi actually got super depth anyway? Not me, and not three other detectors I own that in real life beat Minelab vlf's and multi's by around 1" in almost all cases, and even up to 2" in a few others. If you doubt this, then go try a stock Tejon in medium to mild soil, and then try to match a Sov or an Expl against it. You will be so disenchanted with the Minelabs that you may have nothing but disgust in your eyes or toss it on the ground as a friend of mine did. Most Minelabs do run very smoothly in high salt/high mineralized soil though, but they cannot "go deeper in the ground", unless they are PI's.

Yeah, I know this sounds brutal, but it's the truth.

Happy HUNTing all. It's time for a Big Mack and a trip to the oceanside.

EasyMoney

 

[Iron Patch]

Yeah those low-end single freq. Bounty Hunters get all the deep stuff I miss. That may be the truth in your world but I'll stick to detecting in mine.

There's a lot more to detecting than raw depth so all interesting but doesn't mean much.

 

[Iron Patch]

Thanks for the reply guys. Just a quick update on the explorer. I have now used it for 25 hrs. So That ranks me just above absolute beginner...lol. I have now dug 245 coins with the thing, in my yard and my moms. My yard is so trashy it wont keep a threshold. I went to iron mask -12 and ferrous tones. As you know there is no mistaking dimes and quarters. But I suprised myself, I can tell a copper from a zinc penny. I bought the thing from a local pawn shop real cheap. So i was worried that something was wrong with it. But after a week and all the finds i think it is working ok. One question though. i can only run the sens at 19-20 before it becomes unstable. Is that because of my ground or a possible sign of trouble? Heres a few of my "good" finds, 2 silver ike dimes a silver 20 centavos a wheatie and a war nickle. A "national defense" service medal and 3 silver plated spoons that look like copper..lol BTW when i did the "very first silver happy dance" my wife looked at me like i had lost it...lol..that was priceless...Untill next time. Cya from NE Texas..HH Tal

Don't forget your iron mask setting will have a lot to do with how stable the detector is as will auto sense vs man. sense. I run high man. sense at -14 IM and in conductive, anyone new to what I listen to would be lost. What I'd suggest, and is what I did, every month or two bump a notch up on your sense and one lower on your iron mask. You're probably a little ahead of yourself now so maybe get used to those settings for a few months. One thing a lot of people don't realize is the null in the sound plays a huge roll in determining those iffy sounds. People who jump from setting to setting will never learn (be able to hear) those very subtle sounds (combination of null and target) that tip you off to the proper ID.

Could you talk a little more about "(combination of null and target) that tip you off to the proper ID."

I have read the SE manual a few times, as I'm thinking of getting one very soon, and know what it says about how and when it happens but there is no substitute for experience, or listening to someone with experience.

That's the problem, there is no substitute for experience so I can't really explain it well, you just have to put the time in. Basically what it comes down to being able to hear a null around a good target opposed to a null that's in a target (iron). Like most other detctors X'ing a signal from different directions helps quite a bit when deciding if to dig. Using the null is almost like timing, when you get used to the same settings you understand the timing how both a signal and null interact, this makes for a better idea of the target. Not sure how that will come across to read, but as I said earlier you just gotta have the time in for it all to make sense.

 

[JOE(USA)]

EasyMoney,

Glad to see you in there with the electronics theory. Man oh man the Minelab guys are going to pound you now! Don't let it bother, you know the REAL truth! Joe

 

[Iron Patch]

EasyMoney,

Glad to see you in there with the electronics theory. Man oh man the Minelab guys are going to pound you now! Don't let it bother, you know the REAL truth! Joe

Minelab guys don't have to pound anyone, they're too busy digging good stuff!

 

[EasyMoney]

Hey Joe, naah, I don't worry about the Minelab boys at all. Besides that I own and use one too, and it like all other detectors has it's place..

I'm used to their fussing and frustration, especially when I use my ancient modified by (Yours Truly) Compass Scanner R&C to show them how it's all done in a park or on the seashore somewhere. Boy you should see the looks on their faces too! There is nothing I like better than to spank Minelab and Garrett owners right there in front of their friends now and then. Fishers too, and so on... How embarrassing. Sovs and Explorers both have such slow processors that they actually miss targets if scanning too fast. Not good. Not at all.

BTW, a Tesoro Lobo Super Traq is one of the deepest detectors ever made for highly mineralized ground. But Joe you already know that, and you know why too. That puppy works ANWHERE and very well too.

Even my 4 year old cz-70 works better than an Explorer or a Sov, etc. in bad ground and even better on the salt beaches, and in good ground the Tejon beats them like a freckle-faced red-headed stepchild with a bunch of ugly warts on it's face. Again though, the Minelabs do work very smoothly on salt beaches, and that is their best attribute.

I often wonder why the words of Keith Wills seem to echo my words about hype vs hope when it comes to Minelabs in general, and some people's odd claims about them. Keith knows more about detectors than 350 of the average detectorist I've ever met, and I trust his words a bit better than the average Minelab owner for sure... .

As you well know Joe, I don't put my opinions on here, I tell it as it is, and have no brand preference either. Some things work well, and some don't, no matter which way it's sliced or how we go or who made it. .

After repairing more detectors in even as little as one week's time than the average detectorist handles in his or her lifetime, I don't stutter when I make statements like the above, and I can back up my claims with the words of the Masters, such as the "Main Man" George ("The Truth") Payne, Jack Gifford, Keith Wills, and the man responsible for Minelabs even ever being in existence, he being none other than Erik Foster, the King of ALL PI's and their beginnings, and including the vlf British and Australian machines too.

I would post their sites and words again so that all could do the reading, but it's not my job, as I've told a few individuals. All I can do is to lead the horse to water, and they can do the drinking by themselves. One person in particular though, asks me every question in the book, instead of doing the research, and many more just are a bit too relaxed to do their own homework at all..

BTW, a very big THANKS for the Backpacker. It got here in real good shape. It works even a bit better than I had hoped for. I'm going to put in a handle toggle switch for quick all-metal to disc, and then I might even do a 3-in-one just for the fun of it and ease of use.. It really does cancel the ground well for a non-ground cancel, but I may be able to convert it a little too, or at least improve the gain with a linear amp and a multi-stage step-up transformer. I've thought about increasing the retune speed too. It's just a capacitance change, nothing more.

I remeber back in the 70's when I used to repair those machines. A.H. Pro usually had a problem or two with knobs getting loose or wearing out now and then but didn't have as much troubles as did White's with their circuitboards cracking. I hope it wasn't my fault with White's problem in that respect, because I worked right before that at a place that White's farmed out to to make the PC boards. I was the super there in R&D and quality control. Oh, well, a long time ago..

Again, thanks for the real good deal on the detector and keep selling those Tesoros, they are #1 in my book right now as the best deal on a detector.

EasyMoney

 

[JOE(USA)]

Easymoney,

Glad to hear your not frustrated with the "My detectors,better than your detector" mentality. I have been looking for a Compass R&C myself but no luck. If I get one I'd be interested in what mods you made.
Minelab really has the hype going about their detectors (Which is good for their business) but people think that a price tag is directly related to performance in all facets of detecting and it just is not so. Much more to it than that.
I've got to give Keith a call he's got a Teknetics of mine he's repairing. Glad you like the A.H. Backpacker, the circuits are well tuned and it's in great cosmetic condition too. switching to metal film caps. would probably sharpen up the response. What would you do with the other mods you mentioned, piggyback them in another housing?
O.K. I'm rambling, got to work on my Fisher 555D Pro today, got a broken wire. Joe

 

[EasyMoney]

Yeah Joe, when we get older things don't seem to bother us as much, do they?

Any mods I do to the Backpacker would easily fit inside the casing, plus the trigger or thumb switch could be placed right on the handle. As far as mods to a Compass, I try to keep the lid on the "hows", just as I have with my little detector invention I'm working on. I figure if the word gets out that soon everybody would do the same and I no longer could be taking people's betting money. Not good. Those same mods can be done by Keith, but Keith at least has the common sense to not push a detector that hard. . He has all the schematics for the Compasses and because of that he is the one to have them brought back to factory specs.

One of those Teknetics was George's favorite inventions, or so he indicates. I can't remember which one though.

That 550d was a real mean workhorse in all-metal. It made a real good mining machine. There is one here on e-Bay for $150 but I don't need it so I offered him a bid a bit too low, I guess. I remember a man pulling a barber quarter out of a bunch of pyroplastic rubble on a hill at the park there in Spokane, Washington at 14" with one back in 1978. Only the original Garrett Deepseeker could keep up with those old Fishers, even today.

Yeah, I ramble too. A compulsiveness of sorts. Probably brought on when I was company interpreter back in Germany as a soldier. Lots of pressure in that job and one had to be careful so as not to say or write the wrong thing when trying to get a message across to a foreigner. One of my personal misgivings. Oh, well, worse things could happen I guess.

Thanks again Joe. You have my references any day any time.

EasyMoney

 

[Ricardo_NY1]

In the words of many well-noted detector engineers we all know; "there is no possibility that a detector can get better depth in the ground than it does in the air". "It is impossible"..

If iron is buried for a few years, it becomes oxidized and therefore combines (covalently) with other minerals in the soil and that too becomes oxidized, thereby making a "halo effect", or so it is called. Still, the detector does not "detect deeper in the ground" because the detector is reading the ghost or halo, or oxidized material surrounding the target, and not just the piece of iron. Iron is the ONLY metal known to have this capacity to bond with other minerals in the ground this much or this dramaticaly. Gold basically has absolutely zero bleed-off unlike the characteristics of iron, and only copper and brass and other semi-precious metals can do this (extremely) marginally, at best.

Easymoney,
This is not a return fire. I have a question based on what you've written. I like to research and hear information, and I usually stop to ask a question where I feel the person knows what they are talking about. My first question regarding depth goes as follows, if a detector cannot achieve better depth in the ground than what it can achieve in the air, can the same be said about an objects conductive abilities? Is an object as conductive in the ground as it is in the air? Your observations on bleed-off and halo effects sound logical to me, yet with all said, my ultimate second question is why is it that an Explorer like the one I use (XS) can read a silver dime at 5" very well until I actually start digging and disturbing the soil? At which point the signal may either disappear or the signal will sound nothing like a silver coin. What can be said of copper pennies that seem to scream like silver yet don't once out in the air? Can it be said that a detector may not go deeper in the ground than in the air but that the targets react or are more conductive when in the ground, giving the impression that the detector has better depth in soil? I've pulled out a few silver coins this year and have consistently noticed, even with my ACE 250 that once you disturb that soil/coin, the signal weakens or can actually disappear altogether. This supports the Halo effect for even silver, but in support of the logical halo/bleed-off observations you mentioned, to what effect would you attribute what I have written here? I'd love to hear your comments.

 

[Coin Shooter]

In the words of many well-noted detector engineers we all know; "there is no possibility that a detector can get better depth in the ground than it does in the air". "It is impossible"..

If iron is buried for a few years, it becomes oxidized and therefore combines (covalently) with other minerals in the soil and that too becomes oxidized, thereby making a "halo effect", or so it is called. Still, the detector does not "detect deeper in the ground" because the detector is reading the ghost or halo, or oxidized material surrounding the target, and not just the piece of iron. Iron is the ONLY metal known to have this capacity to bond with other minerals in the ground this much or this dramaticaly. Gold basically has absolutely zero bleed-off unlike the characteristics of iron, and only copper and brass and other semi-precious metals can do this (extremely) marginally, at best.

Easymoney,
This is not a return fire. I have a question based on what you've written. I like to research and hear information, and I usually stop to ask a question where I feel the person knows what they are talking about. My first question regarding depth goes as follows, if a detector cannot achieve better depth in the ground than what it can achieve in the air, can the same be said about an objects conductive abilities? Is an object as conductive in the ground as it is in the air? Your observations on bleed-off and halo effects sound logical to me, yet with all said, my ultimate second question is why is it that an Explorer like the one I use (XS) can read a silver dime at 5" very well until I actually start digging and disturbing the soil? At which point the signal may either disappear or the signal will sound nothing like a silver coin. What can be said of copper pennies that seem to scream like silver yet don't once out in the air? Can it be said that a detector may not go deeper in the ground than in the air but that the targets react or are more conductive when in the ground, giving the impression that the detector has better depth in soil? I've pulled out a few silver coins this year and have consistently noticed, even with my ACE 250 that once you disturb that soil/coin, the signal weakens or can actually disappear altogether. This supports the Halo effect for even silver, but in support of the logical halo/bleed-off observations you mentioned, to what effect would you attribute what I have written here? I'd love to hear your comments.

I don’t know if this is what is happening to you, but while doing some air test with a new Explorer SE there was a big difference in a coin on edge or flat. I expected this, what I did not expect was that a certain angles and certain directions of movement the signal was almost nonexistent.

 

[Iron Patch]

In the words of many well-noted detector engineers we all know; "there is no possibility that a detector can get better depth in the ground than it does in the air". "It is impossible"..

If iron is buried for a few years, it becomes oxidized and therefore combines (covalently) with other minerals in the soil and that too becomes oxidized, thereby making a "halo effect", or so it is called. Still, the detector does not "detect deeper in the ground" because the detector is reading the ghost or halo, or oxidized material surrounding the target, and not just the piece of iron. Iron is the ONLY metal known to have this capacity to bond with other minerals in the ground this much or this dramaticaly. Gold basically has absolutely zero bleed-off unlike the characteristics of iron, and only copper and brass and other semi-precious metals can do this (extremely) marginally, at best.

Easymoney,
This is not a return fire. I have a question based on what you've written. I like to research and hear information, and I usually stop to ask a question where I feel the person knows what they are talking about. My first question regarding depth goes as follows, if a detector cannot achieve better depth in the ground than what it can achieve in the air, can the same be said about an objects conductive abilities? Is an object as conductive in the ground as it is in the air? Your observations on bleed-off and halo effects sound logical to me, yet with all said, my ultimate second question is why is it that an Explorer like the one I use (XS) can read a silver dime at 5" very well until I actually start digging and disturbing the soil? At which point the signal may either disappear or the signal will sound nothing like a silver coin. What can be said of copper pennies that seem to scream like silver yet don't once out in the air? Can it be said that a detector may not go deeper in the ground than in the air but that the targets react or are more conductive when in the ground, giving the impression that the detector has better depth in soil? I've pulled out a few silver coins this year and have consistently noticed, even with my ACE 250 that once you disturb that soil/coin, the signal weakens or can actually disappear altogether. This supports the Halo effect for even silver, but in support of the logical halo/bleed-off observations you mentioned, to what effect would you attribute what I have written here? I'd love to hear your comments.

I don’t know if this is what is happening to you, but while doing some air test with a new Explorer SE there was a big difference in a coin on edge or flat. I expected this, what I did not expect was that a certain angles and certain directions of movement the signal was almost nonexistent.

Those near nonexistent targets are the ones many detectors don't see. (in ground)

What you said is one cause along with disturbing the ground matrix in general. The Explorer may not see deeper in the ground than air but it certainly is one of the units on the market that matches it's air results under decent, or even sometimes tough conditions.

 

[Coin Shooter]

The only reason I am even playing with the air test is that I just got the SE, and the combination of no daylight time and bad weather is keeping me inside with it.
I have been using the old CZ7a for over seven years now can pinpoint pretty good with it. When I switch detectors, for a few minutes, with someone I can never get the same pinpoint as with mine, so I’m just using the inside test to help me learn the characteristics of the SE coil.