Antique (Vintage, Old) Old Paper Miniature -Instanbul, Soviet Unioun

[mjm579]

My fav thrift store struck again

Wasn't sure what this piece was until now. (old paper miniature)

I still don't know what it is worth, but I figured it was a nicer piece if someone spent the money to have it custom framed (and took the time to include/save the business card on the back).

The back of the picture shows the company that did the framing and the business card of where the piece was purchased in 1997.

So based on this alone, I had assumed it was a porcelain piece. I mean it says that the piece was bought from a person who works with porcelain.

This is until I turned to business card over - "old paper miniature".

LOOK at the detail on this piece. Extraordinary. Not to mention that the paper looks old(fiber pieces throughout. Love!!!

Several of the pics below this detail.

ALSO, it looks like another "page" would have been on the opposing side years and years ago. Noticed mostly where the letters appear to be doubled (see the last picture). I can only guess that this piece came from an old boom

Frame measures approx 9" x 12".

Paid $4 for it.

 

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[mjm579]

The picture may be biblical. Looks like the three makings to me. What do you see?

 

[mjm579]

Sorry, it was supposed to say, "we three kings".

 

[capt-zero]

Actually, the picture appears to be Indian to me. Perhaps a scene from Omar Kayaam(?) or a Hindu scene? Great find. I think you should keep the thrift store you keep finding this stuff at a secret and maybe just buy out all their art. If it were mine, I would very carefully (antique paper can be VERY fragile) remove it from it's frame and inspect it back lit, like against a window. That way you can tell what kind of paper making process was used, a good indicator of age (prior to about 1850 most paper was "laid" paper). Also there is frequently identifying information on the back of artwork. An extreme example is once I bought a watercolor on canvas at an estate sale that was signed only with a cartouche I couldn't identify and no way to search it out. However, when I removed it from it's frame, on the back I found a charcoal and ink drawing of a brace of pistols and in block letters a description of the piece and the artists name, Wilhelm Dietz, a listed early 19th century German painter..

 

[mjm579]

Actually, the picture appears to be Indian to me. Perhaps a scene from Omar Kayaam(?) or a Hindu scene? Great find. I think you should keep the thrift store you keep finding this stuff at a secret and maybe just buy out all their art. If it were mine, I would very carefully (antique paper can be VERY fragile) remove it from it's frame and inspect it back lit, like against a window. That way you can tell what kind of paper making process was used, a good indicator of age (prior to about 1850 most paper was "laid" paper). Also there is frequently identifying information on the back of artwork. An extreme example is once I bought a watercolor on canvas at an estate sale that was signed only with a cartouche I couldn't identify and no way to search it out. However, when I removed it from it's frame, on the back I found a charcoal and ink drawing of a brace of pistols and in block letters a description of the piece and the artists name, Wilhelm Dietz, a listed early 19th century German painter..

Thanks capt. I plan to do a little more research. Hubby says "stuff comes in and never goes back out". I just love to buy. Wonder if I should just drop it off and let one of those eBay stores sell it for me. Only problem there is that I likely wouldn't learn as much in the process. The learning is really my most favorite part of what I do....shopping is just a necessary evil. (LOL)

 

[surf]

Sorry, it was supposed to say, "we three kings".

I kinda doubt it, mjm,

The text appears to be Arabic to me. Purchased in Istanbul...

Maqamat Al-Hariri, Illustrated Arabic Manuscript

 

[capt-zero]

Those Ebay stores charge 40%.

 

[mjm579]

Actually, the picture appears to be Indian to me. Perhaps a scene from Omar Kayaam(?) or a Hindu scene? Great find. I think you should keep the thrift store you keep finding this stuff at a secret and maybe just buy out all their art. If it were mine, I would very carefully (antique paper can be VERY fragile) remove it from it's frame and inspect it back lit, like against a window. That way you can tell what kind of paper making process was used, a good indicator of age (prior to about 1850 most paper was "laid" paper). Also there is frequently identifying information on the back of artwork. An extreme example is once I bought a watercolor on canvas at an estate sale that was signed only with a cartouche I couldn't identify and no way to search it out. However, when I removed it from it's frame, on the back I found a charcoal and ink drawing of a brace of pistols and in block letters a description of the piece and the artists name, Wilhelm Dietz, a listed early 19th century German painter..

Ok, I finally got around to tearing this thing apart. Here is what I found....the paper has text on the other side. It is all hand written and the image is delicately hand drawn. I used a black light and no indication of new paints or fibers anywhere on this piece.

 

[capt-zero]

mjm579,
It's great that you bit the bullet and removed it from it's frame. As you can see there are frequent suprises. That's a very interesting stamp you found on the back. I wanted to mention that what I meant for identifying the type of paper was to have it back lit not black lite. If you hold the paper against a window during the day you can see the grain of the paper and any watermarks that may be on it. Before about the middle of the 19th century all paper was made by sifting a pulp slurry through a fine mesh screen and then pressing the excess water out. This process left distinct marks from the screen on the paper and sometimes the papermaker had a logo on the press that also left an impression on the paper called a watermark. This type of paper is called laid paper and can be helpful in determining age of the print you have. In other words if it isn't laid paper it's most likely late 19th or later paper. Be advised though, laid paper is still being produced and can be purchased at most art supply shops today. If someone tells you that a print is from the 17th century and you find it's not laid paper it's definitely not 17th century. IMHO it would be probably answer most of your questions to have the piece translated. What it is and where it came from may well already be written right there on the print. Good luck. I'm very jealous of your find. Once it gets full daylight here, I'll take a couple of pics of some old laid paper and show you what I mean.

 

[mjm579]

mjm579,
It's great that you bit the bullet and removed it from it's frame. As you can see there are frequent suprises. That's a very interesting stamp you found on the back. I wanted to mention that what I meant for identifying the type of paper was to have it back lit not black lite. If you hold the paper against a window during the day you can see the grain of the paper and any watermarks that may be on it. Before about the middle of the 19th century all paper was made by sifting a pulp slurry through a fine mesh screen and then pressing the excess water out. This process left distinct marks from the screen on the paper and sometimes the papermaker had a logo on the press that also left an impression on the paper called a watermark. This type of paper is called laid paper and can be helpful in determining age of the print you have. In other words if it isn't laid paper it's most likely late 19th or later paper. Be advised though, laid paper is still being produced and can be purchased at most art supply shops today. If someone tells you that a print is from the 17th century and you find it's not laid paper it's definitely not 17th century. IMHO it would be probably answer most of your questions to have the piece translated. What it is and where it came from may well already be written right there on the print. Good luck. I'm very jealous of your find. Once it gets full daylight here, I'll take a couple of pics of some old laid paper and show you what I mean.

Thx capt. I wanted to take it completely out, but it was dark and I had no way to back light the paper. Hopefully tonight, unless I hit up my fav thrift store instead

 

[capt-zero]

I'm afraid my photo examples leave much to be desired, but I believe one, at least, shows an example of a watermark. These modern cameras make certain assumptions and I wanted it to focus on the paper, but it kept focusing on the window glass. If you search for identifying antique prints, you should find a listing for antique paper making that will explain what I've trying to point out. However, once you've seen just one example of antique laid paper, you will be able to identify it without taking it out of the frame.

 

[capt-zero]

If you will notice the first pic, you can just make out the watermark of "BFK Rives". Unfortunately I couldn't get my camera to focus finely enough for you to make out the chain marks in the second photo. If you research laid paper, it's facinating reading and it will greatly aid you in identifying the really old prints you can find.

 

[mjm579]

If you will notice the first pic, you can just make out the watermark of "BFK Rives". Unfortunately I couldn't get my camera to focus finely enough for you to make out the chain marks in the second photo. If you research laid paper, it's facinating reading and it will greatly aid you in identifying the really old prints you can find.

I think I see the B F at the bottom of the print. Rather large?

 

[capt-zero]

I'm afraid the photography is horrid. I shot about 20 frames and those three were the best. I was shooting in macro mode from about 10 feet and the camera kept focusing on the light scource instead of the surface of the paper. Back in the era of film cameras I could force it focus where I wanted, but I guess that's the trade off for convience. This is a PDF file on identifying "originals" that has an informative section on papermaking history. A subject that is a must read for any print collector. http://www.si.edu/mci/downloads/RELACT/identifying_the_real_thing.pdf

 

[diggummup]

Islamic manuscript page from a book. Maybe a prayer book or book of poetry. Not sure. Contact this man, he can help you- gehanibrahim.com created by ga11eg based on super-load-movers

 

[mjm579]

Islamic manuscript page from a book. Maybe a prayer book or book of poetry. Not sure. Contact this man, he can help you- gehanibrahim.com created by ga11eg based on super-load-movers

Thanks, diggummup! I really appreciate any new info.

 

[Mekong Mike]

They look Iranian/Persian.

Nice find.

 

[mjm579]

It's been quite some time since I posted anything. I was just watching a "repeat" episode of Antiques Roadshow from 1997 (with today's value - 2014). A woman had three of these at the show in 1997. The three pieces were valued at $40,000-50,000! I really need to take this piece some place to auction!

 

[diggummup]

As I previously stated it could be a page from an old manuscript. Then again, it could be a something like this- Persian Illuminated Islamic Manuscript Art Rare Miniature Handmade Folk Painting | Mughal Paintings | Persian Miniatures | Rajasthani Art

Did you ever try contacting the Dr. lady in the link I sent you on reply 15? She is an Author and Researcher in Islamic Art and Archaeology. She, at the very least could tell you what it is exactly.

 

[mjm579]

As I previously stated it could be a page from an old manuscript. Then again, it could be a something like this- Persian Illuminated Islamic Manuscript Art Rare Miniature Handmade Folk Painting | Mughal Paintings | Persian Miniatures | Rajasthani Art Did you ever try contacting the Dr. lady in the link I sent you on reply 15? She is an Author and Researcher in Islamic Art and Archaeology. She, at the very least could tell you what it is exactly.

I tried to contact her via email. Then my husband shifted to a new TV and home internet and lost my email acct.

I'll try again. Thx Dig!