Archaic knife, woodland triangle? Oh my…..

[knapper1492]

Hi all
This is from far NE Illinois. It’s quite thick, and the stack likely limited additional reduction. However I’m more interested in if you think the base snapped and was reworked on one side or was part of the original flake platform. Also, any idea of the flaking in any way can help identify the actual type? It’s glacial till so the material is hard to work with. I can’t tell if this is a potential archaic knife or a crude woodland triangle. Any ideas from the Illinois area experts?

 

[CreekSide]

Hi all
This is from far NE Illinois. It’s quite thick, and the stack likely limited additional reduction. However I’m more interested in if you think the base snapped and was reworked on one side or was part of the original flake platform. Also, any idea of the flaking in any way can help identify the actual type? It’s glacial till so the material is hard to work with. I can’t tell if this is a potential archaic knife or a crude woodland triangle. Any ideas from the Illinois area experts?

Looks like they had a problem thinning out the base. I’d go with triangle imo

 

[Older The Better]

From the pictures I don’t see anything that tells me the base has been broken looks worked all the way around… I’m not in Illinois but I found a bigger than usual triangular piece last year that was also kind of thick, it came off a mixed site middle woodland to Mississippian

 

[ToddsPoint]

I can’t decide whether your base is broken or just unfinished. Without a defined base, it’s nearly impossible to assign a type to it. It has fairly nice flaking, especially if it’s glacial till material. I’m downstate and live near the Kaskaskia River. Shelby Co. I’m a knapper and have chipped glacial till flint for 40 yrs. The white stuff for the most part is difficult to chip. We call it “mean white” for a reason. Occasionally you’ll find some white that chips well. The darker glacial till material chips much better. The most common type we call “glacial grey”. There are dozens of different flint types in the till if you start looking for them.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

To me it looks like a broken piece reworked into a knife. Looks like only one side was reworked.

 

[knapper1492]

To me ir looks like a broken piece reworked into a knife. Looks like only one side was reworked.

I am not good at differentiating between a knife and a point. What do you look for to tell the difference between a knife and a point?

 

[newnan man]

I agree with TH. I think it was much bigger at one time, broke and reworked into something still useful. Most triangles were small & thin and true arrowheads. A knife would be large, something to use for big projects & could be constantly resharpened as the edge dulled.

 

[bigtruck68]

Looks more like a Woodland triangle to me. The base flaking seems intentional, not snapped. That kind of edge pattern shows up often in northern Illinois finds.

 

[knapper1492]

Looks more like a Woodland triangle to me. The base flaking seems intentional, not snapped. That kind of edge pattern shows up often in northern Illinois finds.

How could they haft this to an arrow shaft being that it’s so thick? Most of the true triangle Madison’s are thin and fit for a bow. Would this predate the arrow?

 

[CreekSide]

From the pictures I don’t see anything that tells me the base has been broken looks worked all the way around… I’m not in Illinois but I found a bigger than usual triangular piece last year that was also kind of thick, it came off a mixed site middle woodland to Mississippian

Example please
Let’s see it

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Looks more like a Woodland triangle to me. The base flaking seems intentional, not snapped. That kind of edge pattern shows up often in northern Illinois finds.

Fyi, this is the picture that makes me think it is a broken piece reworked.

 

[Older The Better]

Example please
Let’s see it

I tried to find pictures when I posted but i couldn’t find them. I guess to clarify too, I dont think yours is currently broken but it definitely could have been reworked. And it’s not always the definitive way to tell but if I see asymmetry or bevels I think knife
Found them

 

[knapper1492]

I tried to find pictures when I posted but i couldn’t find them. I guess to clarify too, I dont think yours is currently broken but it definitely could have been reworked. And it’s not always the definitive way to tell but if I see asymmetry or bevels I think knife
Found themView attachment 2228532View attachment 2228533View attachment 2228534

I think that is more of a scraper tool….:

 

[knapper1492]

I see a few posts about it being a woodland triangle. It looks heavily resharpened which I assume would not make it a standard arrow and it’s quite thick. My thinking is a possible Matanzas or related. What do you think?

 

[newnan man]

Definitely it was never an arrowhead.

 

[knapper1492]

Definitely it was never an arrowhead. I’m so torn on whether it broke or was worked off a flake. On one side, there is a piece missing near the base, which i can’t tell if it was part of the original piece or happened later. Part of me thinks it was a matanzas preform. Thoughts?