Atlantis

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Springfield ***** post Manly Hall was correct to an extent.

Gentlemen: yer going to need it. Look closely at the following attachment, notice the tremendous difference between the meteor strike off of Yucatan, and Atlantis.

The meteor left a clean strike, floor, while Atlantis / Aztlan left a crumbled mess. Still showing the original basis of a giant Caldera, but with many features buried under the tremendous amount of mud and debris left from the occurrence.©@®

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Found this information online, but it can be checked against what Plato wrote:

______________________________________________________________

"So it was ordained that each such leader should provide for war the sixth part of a war-chariots equipment, so as to make up 10,000 chariots in all, together with two horses and mounted men; [119b] also a pair of horses without a car, and attached thereto a combatant with a small shield and for charioteer the rider who springs from horse to horse; and two hoplites; and archers and slingers, two of each; and light-armed slingers and javelin-men, three of each; and four sailors towards the manning of twelve hundred ships."

So just how big was this army of Atlantis?
Let's see... 60,000 allotments with 1 x leader = 60,000 leaders providing
10,000 chariots
20,000 horses with
20,000 mounted men
20,000 horses without car
10,000 combatants with small shield
10,000 charioteers being riders who spring from horse to horse
120,000 hoplites (There were no hoplites before the seventh or eighth century).
120,000 archers
120,000 slingers
180,000 light armed slingers
180,000 javelin-men
240,000 sailors
1200 ships, each crew was therefore 200 sailors, correct for a trireme.

That comes to a force of
10,000 combatants mounted on chariots,
10,000 drivers
20,000 cavalry
720,000 soldiers
240,000 sailors

Making total military personnel of 1,000,000 men. (assuming the leaders in the allotments stayed at home!)

And that was only supposedly one of the 10 kingdoms of Atlantis, "Such then were the military dispositions of the royal City; and those of the other nine varied in various ways, which it would take a long time to tell."

____________________________________________________

I believe we can all agree that the above was not possible in 10-12000 BC. Also, there were no such countries as Egypt or Athens in that era.

Small tribes seems like a bit of a stretch from Plato's story, but I would not take any of the above numbers to the bank, without first double checking them. I have not checked the above "facts" or figures, so they could be out of line. That's what you get when I'm at the store.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,
Found this information online, but it can be checked against what Plato wrote: <snip>
So just how big was this army of Atlantis? <snip>
Making total military personnel of 1,000,000 men. (assuming the leaders in the allotments stayed at home!)
And that was only supposedly one of the 10 kingdoms of Atlantis, "Such then were the military dispositions of the royal City; and those of the other nine varied in various ways, which it would take a long time to tell."

_________________________________________________ ___

I believe we can all agree that the above was not possible in 10-12000 BC. Also, there were no such countries as Egypt or Athens in that era.

It appears that I must have misunderstood your earlier question, which read quote

<Cactusjumper wrote earlier>

"Before it's destruction, Atlantis had a great war with Egypt and Athens.......among others. Can you tell me what kind of armies those two nations could field in 10,000 BC?"

I answered that it would be speculation on my part for Plato does not provide much data, though he does say that Athens had a field army of 20,000 men, just as in his day. Can you provide the answer to your question concerning the armies of Egypt and Athens circa 10,000 BC?

Next, to address your points;
<Cactusjumper wrote>

I believe we can all agree that the above was not possible in 10-12000 BC

I respectfully disagree, as I see no grounds to make that utterly impossible. Can you explain why it would be absolutely impossible? Thank you in advance;

<Cactusjumper also wrote>

Also, there were no such countries as Egypt or Athens in that era.

Can you provide sources to support that twin contention? What name did the people who lived in what we call Egypt go by? What name did the residents of the Attic peninsula go by? Thank you in advance.

Apparently you would not like to examine what Atlantis is described as, without Plato? I can assure you that you will not find those anachronisms which you like to point to as proof that the whole is impossible.

Proclus, in his commentary on Timaeus wrote;
"That an island of such nature and size once existed is evident from what is said by certain authors who investigated the things around the outer sea. For according to them, there were seven islands in that sea in their time, sacred to Persephone, and also three others of enormous size, one of which was sacred to Hades, another to Ammon, and another one between them to Poseidon, the extent of which was a thousand stadia [200 km]; and the inhabitants of it—they add—preserved the remembrance from their ancestors of the immeasurably large island of Atlantis which had really existed there and which for many ages had reigned over all islands in the Atlantic sea and which itself had like-wise been sacred to Poseidon. Now these things Marcellus has written in his Aethiopica"

Note, no triremes, no hoplites, not even any advanced plumbing is mentioned - just large islands sacred to the gods. Also we might note that Proclus was apparently comparing Plato with other ancient sources which we do not have today, that confirmed at least in the major geographic details what he read.

Then there are the intriguing "Atlanteans" mentioned by Herodotus and Diodorus, surviving descendants of the original Atlantis, are living in NW Africa, near Mt Atlas and the Atlantic ocean. Hardly where we might expect to find the descendants if they came from Crete.

As to that "small tribes" idea, do you consider a population of over 200,000 to be a "small tribe"? That is the only estimate I can find on the population of pre-dynastic Egypt, and I would not consider it a small tribe but that is only my opinion.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Can you provide the answer to your question concerning the armies of Egypt and Athens circa 10,000 BC?"

I believe there were no armies in either place. Armies require a great deal of food to survive. It is unlikely that such an industry existed in Egypt much before 6,000 to 5,000 BC. That is not to say that there has not been a great deal of speculation, but there is no evidence beyond what was needed for small tribes and villages to survive. Faiyum probably provides the best answers. The true expansion of agriculture did not begin until around 4,500 BC.......as I read the history.

"I respectfully disagree, as I see no grounds to make that utterly impossible. Can you explain why it would be absolutely impossible?"

Every argument I have ever made against the truth of Atlantis is what makes it not possible to me. "Absolutely impossible" or "utterly impossible" were not my choice of words. I believe that the Atlantis that Plato describes, would have not been defeated by anything that existed in 10,000 BC.

[As to that "small tribes" idea, do you consider a population of over 200,000 to be a "small tribe"? That is the only estimate I can find on the population of pre-dynastic Egypt, and I would not consider it a small tribe but that is only my opinion.]

As I understand it, the predynastic period in Egypt was around 5,500 to 3,100 BC. That's a fur piece away from the era of Atlantis. Your 200,000 population was scattered over a wide area, even
then. The Nile Valley was not a small area in Egypt.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

I did not say that the population of Egypt, was concentrated into one spot. Does a nation have to have its population concentrated in one place, or not be considered a nation? As to the predynastic Egypt I would suggest you take a look at the Natufian culture;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture

Do you have a source with figures for the population of Egypt and or Greece, circa 10,000 BC? Thank you in advance;

Professional, full time armies require just what you describe, but even as late as the Classical age, many states had no formal "army" as you describe but would call on the whole of the available male population. There are countries in the modern world today in that situation. Would that mean that such a state, with its defense composed not of a formal, full time professional army but of militia called up as needed, should not be considered to have an army? If you have a case where one side in a conflict has a professional army and fights against an opponent that has only armed militia, does that not count as a "war"?

Your every argument against Atlantis is of the all or nothing approach; were we to look at many other ancient historic events, many of them would have to be considered as fantasy when it is known that they are not. Do we contend that Egypt did not attack Judaea while Rehoboam was king, because the story is told as if it were the result of angry God bringing the disaster? Plato using a war and natural disaster to make a morality lesson is not far different from other historians of the ancient world who saw the work of the gods in every calamity. True historians who simply recorded events rather than religious aspects involved were only starting to appear in the Classical age.

You have said that you cannot stray from Plato, but were we investigating any other history, we would look to alternate sources for confirmation or dis-proval and this is possible with Plato too. As I have tried to point out, there are ancient sources who confirm the basics of Plato, but not for those very anachronisms which serve to argue against a real Atlantis. Perhaps in your view, if we had an Ice Age civilization living on now submerged islands, with cities build of adobe brick, trading by sea in boats powered by sails and aggressively attempting to conquer all but without triremes, chariots, hoplites, hot and cold running water and gleaming temples plated with metals, this would not qualify as Atlantis? We would end up in disagreement, as we have been and will be for I do not see things that way.

I think that what you require to sway your view is not available nor will it be any time soon.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Do you have a source with figures for the population of Egypt and or Greece, circa 10,000 BC?"

I don't think there are many sources that give a specific number for 10,000 BC. What I have read say the numbers were small, and mostly centered in the northern part of the Nile Valley. If anyone does state a particular number for population, I would consider it a guess......at best.

Something to keep in mind is that the people of almost every nation in Solon's era were vying for the title of "oldest civilization". It was some kind of mental chest thumping that was going on. A good example is the "Kings List". Egypt was doing some of the best (looking down their collective noses) thumping.

Once again I'm at work, so I will not be able to quote specific books or authors, but can do so when I get home, if needed. One of the books is "Centuries of Darkness" by, Peter James in collaboration with I. J. Thorpe, Nikos Kokkinos, Robert Morkot & John Frankish.

In the above book they argue against the accuracy of the accepted chronological history, and provide many examples of where it goes wrong. Excellent read, but there are many who are antagonistic to the conclusions. The author has done a fine job of answering their questions......on line.

"Your every argument against Atlantis is of the all or nothing approach; were we to look at many other ancient historic events, many of them would have to be considered as fantasy when it is known that they are not. Do we contend that Egypt did not attack Judaea while Rehoboam was king, because the story is told as if it were the result of angry God bringing the disaster? Plato using a war and natural disaster to make a morality lesson is not far different from other historians of the ancient world who saw the work of the gods in every calamity. True historians who simply recorded events rather than religious aspects involved were only starting to appear in the Classical age."

I must respectfully disagree with that assessment of my approach to the question of Atlantis. I believe the story is fictional, but with a historic base. That base would be the known history of Thera and Crete. There is no known mention of the island of Atlantis by any source prior to Plato. For me, that is telling.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I hope you two are doing well in the cold country.

I was thinking there was a lot more Atlantis to discuss.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I hope you two are doing well in the cold country.

I was thinking there was a lot more Atlantis to discuss.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,
The winter here, thus far, has been the mildest on record so I can't claim to have been suffering from the cold much. In fact this is the mildest winter I have ever seen in a northern latitude. But thanks for the kind wishes and rest assured I will have a handy bag of excuses ready, no self respecting lazy man would be without it.

There are plenty of angles to the Atlantis subject, not sure where you might be interested in leading the discussion but would be happy to participate. Fire away, I am out of rifle range!

I hope all is well with you folks, please give Smoky an extra treat on our behalf.
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

OK JOE facts

1) Alantis/Aztlan has been found. Go see for yourself, I am too busy. hehehheh

2) Since Atlantis /Aztlan has been found, and more or less where Plato, among others, said that it would be, this means that his document was correct and hence ORO also. Unfortunately I haven't caught oro in too many booboos, nor you, as a matter of fact. " I " of course ----..

3) I caught this flue diving on Atlantis / Aztlan to show you the error of your ways, so you owe me a huge dinner, with coffee if I survive what would have killed 10 nomal humans hack, hawk, koff, koff, koff, gurgle, pittoey.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

Since you have survived the dive, I would expect to see some artifacts or pictures at that dinner.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

Unfortunately I haven't caught oro in too many booboos

Key word there being "caught" - as in you have not caught the booboos, which is not quite the same as not making them!

What about any evidence found at your site amigo? Anything turned up so far? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[desertmoons]

I'm only to page three of this thread and it has taken hours. You know how it is, see a word, person or place you wonder about in the discussion and you are off on detour on the net for a while.

The one interesting thing I found on a detour was this..from the Atlantis is in Bolivia faction:

The next book to definitivly state that South America was Atlantis was "The Discovery and History of Peru" by Agustín Zarate, (1556) who also stated that Plato's "years" were not "years" but "months". "So far Plato, although he says a little later that nine thousand years before he wrote the power of the waters so increased in those seas that in a day and a night the island was submerged, drowning the lands and population, and leaving the sea so full of mud-banks and shallows, that it was never navigable again. No one could then travel to the other islands or to the mainland. All commentators on Plato accept this history as true. The majority, Marsiglio Ficino and Plantin in particular, deny that it is an allegory, though some give it an allegorical sense, as Marsiglio himself mentions in his Notes on the Timaeus. Plato's computation of nine thousand years is no argument that it is a fable; for according to Eudoxus these were not solar but lunar years, reckoned by the Egyptian calendar. The time was therefore nine thousand months or seven hundred and fifty years"

Now..I am not sure who Eudoxus is but the thought of a different time scale seems appealing.

Thanks for a fascinating discussion so far with many many interesting side lights. Enough Atlantis for today!

 

[Oroblanco]

I'm only to page three of this thread and it has taken hours. You know how it is, see a word, person or place you wonder about in the discussion and you are off on detour on the net for a while.

The one interesting thing I found on a detour was this..from the Atlantis is in Bolivia faction:

The next book to definitivly state that South America was Atlantis was "The Discovery and History of Peru" by Agustín Zarate, (1556) who also stated that Plato's "years" were not "years" but "months". "So far Plato, although he says a little later that nine thousand years before he wrote the power of the waters so increased in those seas that in a day and a night the island was submerged, drowning the lands and population, and leaving the sea so full of mud-banks and shallows, that it was never navigable again. No one could then travel to the other islands or to the mainland. All commentators on Plato accept this history as true. The majority, Marsiglio Ficino and Plantin in particular, deny that it is an allegory, though some give it an allegorical sense, as Marsiglio himself mentions in his Notes on the Timaeus. Plato's computation of nine thousand years is no argument that it is a fable; for according to Eudoxus these were not solar but lunar years, reckoned by the Egyptian calendar. The time was therefore nine thousand months or seven hundred and fifty years"

Now..I am not sure who Eudoxus is but the thought of a different time scale seems appealing.

Thanks for a fascinating discussion so far with many many interesting side lights. Enough Atlantis for today!

Eudoxus was a student of Plato's school, and his dissertation is interesting yet appears to be a bit of fudging going on, for the Egyptian lunar year was 12 or 13 months long, not a month; this calendar went out of use long before Solon ever visited Memphis, by a couple thousand years in fact. It does allow for some adjustment if they were Egyptian lunar years rather than solar years, but not to the degree of error in thousands of years, more like less than a thousand at most. I do not have the time to try to work it out, and do not have the date when they switched from 12 lunar months to a year, to 13 months which would also be necessary to get at a figure.
More on Eudoxus at Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudoxus_of_Cnidus

Jstor has an interesting article on a reconstruction of the Egyptian lunar calendar but we can look at the Jewish and Islam lunar calendars for an idea of how they work; in general they are not long enough by about five days per year average, or around 95 years, eight months we should subtract from Plato's nine thousand year figure. That is just a ballpark working from memory, do not take it to any bank, and I don't trust any banks particularly much anyway!

I am glad you have enjoyed our discussion, unfortunately we are at a loggerhead situation (which may be temporary)but please don't let that stop you. What is your own opinion on this, thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[spartacus53]

Well, Don Jose de la Mancha did get it right.. Atlantis has been found and I'll provide the "SOLID" proof as some of there coins washed ashore and I even have the maps

It has been right under your noses all this time.

 

[desertmoons]

I am glad you have enjoyed our discussion, unfortunately we are at a loggerhead situation (which may be temporary)but please don't let that stop you. What is your own opinion on this, thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

Well..remembering I am at page 3 where the intelligent and debonair,Sr Tayopa is putting forth the midatlantic as a possible site...

I believe Plato's story may in some sense be coded and allegorical. Yet there may be truth in it.

One thing that has struck me is the quite peculiar and very particular layout of Atlantis. When I look at pictures of it I am reminded of many examples of early attempts at laying out the universe or cosmos and explaining existence.

Here is one from 1676. van Vreeswyk. The number of circles changed back and forth from Greek and perhaps earlier times up till the 1800's depending on which Natural Philosopher was attempting to make sense of the cosmos and earth itself.



Now Aristotle is the big name in Greek cosmology. Yet he was Plato's student and Plato himself, derived some of his cosmological ideas from earlier ones. His description of Atlantis could have been at some formative time of cosmological thinking or development. I "think" five planets was the norm for long time. But would have to check.

The second item is that time frame of 9000 years. As the layout of Atlantis is suspect to me, I wonder then about that time frame. Could that number of years be code or have some cultural meaning that the readers of his book would be well aware of, well perhaps just certain readers. The rest taking it at face value.
It could be code for something else, anything from "yes it was a long long time ago..beyond counting" to some more very specific meaning.

It makes me wonder if there are references to other events 9000 years ago, or even 5000 years before Plato's time, in his era writings.

The third thing is I tried to imagine Atlantis in a sea or ocean and wondered if its layout was a safe, efficient and likely design for a possibly storm and tide tossed island. I did not get far, I have trouble envisioning 3d models of things, but it might be worth thinking about for those who can envision such things in their mind.

Well a lot of speculation and not a lot of links to back it up. I feel like a slacker hehe. But am researching other things and do not have time to pursue the above thoughts. Since we are just gabbing about a legend..I suppose that is okay.

Anyway... my wild guess, based on what has been posted up to page 3, is a double or triple message in Plato's discourse on Atlantis. The one mentioned early on by another poster,purely allegorical. The second related somehow to Alchemy and Mysticism, the third perhaps a story of an actual event.

Thanks for asking!

 

[Springfield]

... I believe Plato's story may in some sense be coded and allegorical. Yet there may be truth in it.

One thing that has struck me is the quite peculiar and very particular layout of Atlantis. WhenI look at pictures of it I am reminded ofmany examples of early attempts at laying out the universe or cosmos and explaining existence.....

After pondering this enigma for years myself, I tend to fall into a similar camp - one earlier forwarded by some of the Neoplatonists, as I recall. While I am of the opinion that a greatly advanced cultured thrived on earth in the pre-Ice Age/Great Deluge era (we call it 'Atlantis', and widespread evidence of it is found in numerous locations), my current working model does not accept the 'concentric rings surrounding a great mountain' description of the 'great island city'.

Presumably, if this culture centered somewhere in the Atlantic, it was a victim to subsidence, possibly even a catastrophic geologic event. Someday the site may be discovered. The Sargasso Sea seems as likely a location as any. I wouldn't expect the ruins will conform to Plato's description.

It seems an easy exercise to visualize the 'great city' as a description of our solar system with the great mountain in the center as our sun and the concentric rings surrounding as the planetary orbits. For an esoterist, the solar system is not only a collection of whirling physical masses, but the outward manifestation of underlying spiritual concepts and the framework of all of mans' religions, which are solar (hero) based with accompanying lesser gods. Plato, who may have had insights that we are not privy to, could have been using the fall of the 'Atlantis' culture as not only an historical reference, but also as some sort of teaching metaphor for the 'fall of Man'.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good afternoon Desert Moons, Springfield:

First, When I was in China in the late 40's, I was in Peking and had free access to the Forbidden City. I would get up in the morning, have breakfast, prepare a lunch to take, then go by Jin Ricksha to the Forbidden city.

I often had my lunch under the tree where the last of the Mings hung himself on coal Hill.

I was free to wander around where ever I wished alone. I remember being at the
Temple of the Moon, and somewhere nearby was the center of the Universe.

It was a single large paving stone and arranged in a ring around it were 9 more paving stones and radiating out were similiar rings of stones. I don't remember the multiple they used for each suceeding ring, but it seems that they used 5. Except for the center of the Universe, all of the stones were of the same size hence the 5 ratio. The magic 9:5 ratio?

You would have loved to have been there then, I was almost the only one visible. They were waiting for the communist forces to take Peking daily, hence there were no guards.

I don't remember how many days I spent inside of the forbidden City, but I loved them.

Don jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Desertmoons, Springfield, thank you for sharing.

Don Jose - we are waiting on that book amigo, quit teasing and let us see it!
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

While researching Atlantis have you looked at Turkey for evidence of its location?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

While researching Atlantis have you looked at Turkey for evidence of its location?

Take care,

Joe

Yes, along with an interesting theory on Tantalis as Atlantis too; in favor of Tantalus there is evidence that it was destroyed by a great flood. Here is one article:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/briton-finds-atlantis-in-turkey-1538523.html

I hope all is well with you folks,
Roy