Bad Idea Good Idea. You be the judge...

[Hunt-A-Lot]

I have truely been thinking all these years...I've been keeping this to myself, But if it helps in anyway to keep the hobby alive then here we go...
As i was growing up, and living up north i had to purchase a fishing license...Per season, I only used it once but i wanted to be legal incase if someone asked if i had 1, Only used it once didn't catch much but it was like $16.00 for the license. I truely didn't know where the money went to, probably for the town that it was issued in. For road repairs or what ever they saw fit....Hunting is the same way had to get a license if you wanted to go out there to hunt for hunting season...And same thing again what they used the money from the license was probably for the town it was issued in....Now We have alot and i do mean alot of avid Metal detector hunters out there. In my own opinion and which it is an opinion...Workers from the city, county, might see differently if we purchased a Metal Detector license, for the season for the year what ever...With the money that they collect from us would go help the county that was issued in...And if someone mis treats any form of land and they get caught they will loose their license to metal detect till next year...At least with knowing this we all will be careful at what we do...Now i would pay anything to get a license to metal detect if i knew i can go out and metal detect, Mostly beaches is where i would probably go...I myself want to keep this exciting hobby around. So i am thinking of any ideas where we all can meet in the middle and all be happy...
Like i said this is just my opinion... And In my opinion i think this will be a good idea I turely don't want to loose the ability to metal detect and i am sure everyone else here feels the same.... Thank You!!!!!!

 

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[Diggit]

I think it is a good idea. When people have to pay for the privilege of doing something, they take care so as to not lose that privilege.
I for one am getting sick of finding huge holes with trash at the bottom of them.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

It sounds good, and "permits" Rrrrrooollllss off the tongue, but .......... the logistics will simply never happen. In fact, when you read of "permits" from certain cities, they the extreme exception. Usually only for big cities. 1 in 1000 cities ever has such a thing. And often-time, when you look closely at them, you probably really wouldn't want them. For example, I can think of a city in CA (one of probably only 5 cities in all of CA that has such a thing) that has a "permit". But when you read the fine print, it's things like "digger tool can not exceed 3" in length" and other such bologna.

There is simply too many cities across the USA, each of which with their own city council, etc... And odds are, if you even tried to approach various cities where it's not dis-allowed at present (thinking you're going to "pre-empt" any illegalities, etc...) you would only end up getting more restrictions, or out-right "no's".

There is also very few hobbyists, relatively speaking, to make it worth any city's while. So they would not be bothered with something that would net a dozen or 20 people in a city of 100k, for instance. Ie.: the cost of implementing such a thing would cost more than any fees brought in, for such a niche thing.

And when you think of it, to ask for "permits" (unless you're in a place where it's already disallowed, and you want to open something back up), is actually detrimental to the psychology of which you're trying to portray: The very asking to have a "permit", simply implies that something is inherently wrong or damaging or amiss, that you would have to ask for a permit, to begin with (lest why would you be asking?) I mean, for example, would you ask them to implement a permit for flying frisbees? Of course not. So to stand there asking for their sanction or permission for something, leaves the door open for connotations that you somehow NEEDED their sanction, permission or a permit (lest why would you be asking, if your hobby was innocuous?)

I think by asking for "permits" you/we just end up making ourselves a big red "x".

Read the thread about St. Augustine, FL, and talk along this lines was discussed, as a possible solution to "head off things at the pass" before such things as happened there, happen elsewhere.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/m...t-augustine-florida-bans-metal-detectors.html

As nice as it "sounds", yet the devil is in the details.

 

[Sam 8]

Hunt;

With all respect sir I think this is the last thing we need. Based on past performance alone the .gov at every level has proven to be completely incapable of using the taxes they already take from us in a wise manner. Giving them any more money would be tantamount to flushing it down the toilet. I could go on and on, but suffice it to say there are plenty of laws on the books at every level to address trespass, etc. that might come up with a guy out M.D'ing. We don't need a "U.S. Bureau of Metal Detecting/General Walking around Investigation" (Dept. of the Treasury) or one at a state, county, or municipal level, either.
Remember this...once you give them the authority to, "license" you to do something you also give them the ability to tax it, regulate it, and ultimately...take it away from you.
I would pass on any plan that gets the .gov any further involved in my life or my wallet any more than they already are.

 

[bigscoop]

Anyone who has been in this hobby very long has seen the steady trend of increased restrictions and continued loss of access. This trend has been fairly progressive for the last 40 years or so and it is showing little sign of letting up. The very history of our hobby supports the existence of this trend and it's continued presence. Everyone is aware of this.

So here's the problem as I see it. Basically we are left with two choices; A) we do nothing, just as in the past, and we continue to allow the known trend and the known history of our hobby to continue repeating itself. Or B) at some point an effort is made to break that continued trend and change that history.

With the above in mind, I'm not against taking a different path. Question is, "What path should be taken, and how, exactly, should it be forged?"

 

[boris]

Use the money more wisely even if you "salt" sites for the newbees, use zinc pennies, mine are in pieces. I don't think any permits are free, and it would be like going to a coin store to buy your keepers.? Sort of defeats the purpose?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Bigscoop, you say that over the past 40 yrs, there's been :

"the steady trend of increased restrictions and continued loss of access"

Perhaps, yes. But so too has there been the steady trend of increasing hobbyists in the last 40 yrs. And all those increasing #'s, upon reading scary stories and threads, rush down to get sanctioned, permitted, permissioned, etc..... See the catch-22?

So ironically, the best thing to do is, stop making ourselves a big red "x" in need of someone's say-so. Ie.: the "pressing issue" that needs to be addressed. For us to stop doing that would be the most pro-active thing we can do!

 

[bigscoop]

Bigscoop, you say that over the past 40 yrs, there's been :

"the steady trend of increased restrictions and continued loss of access"

Perhaps, yes. But so too has there been the steady trend of increasing hobbyists in the last 40 yrs. And all those increasing #'s, upon reading scary stories and threads, rush down to get sanctioned, permitted, permissioned, etc..... See the catch-22?

So ironically, the best thing to do is, stop making ourselves a big red "x" in need of someone's say-so. Ie.: the "pressing issue" that needs to be addressed. For us to stop doing that would be the most pro-active thing we can do!

Tom, respectfully, we are just in different places with this issue. Doing nothing already has an established track record of steady losses. Doing nothing certainly isn't the answer unless we're willing to live with the continued steady progression of those losses. We don't have to assume it will happen, or guess it will continue to happen, we already have an established history and track record and we know it will continue to happen. On top of this, to address your concerns, the hobby is growing and it is bound to continue to see growth with the recent increase in exposure, which equates to even more hobbyist in the field. So in my mind, if we do nothing to address the historically steady increase in limitations in light of these increased hobbyist and all the concerns eve that goe along with it, then history is only going to continue to repeat itself, and possibly at even a faster rate. This isn't exactly blind guesswork, but rather it's actually a fairly accurate assessment after many hours of researching the subject. So again, in my mind, there is no question something needs to be done, or at the very least, prepared ahead of time. The real question is, "What, and just how, it should be addressed and best prepared?" Sorry, but that's my honest opinion of the situation and in light of what I know today that opinion isn't going to change.

 

[spartacus53]

I'd be on-board only if that was the last alternative

Anyway, why would I want to pay for something that already is free Road repairs? There wouldn't be enough money collected to repair more than 3-4 potholes.

Besides, the chump change they would collect for this license wouldn't cover much to make an impact in any one given area.

If states want to collect extra revenue then they should follow NJ and just grab any unused money left on gift cards

Yeah, that's no joke either.

 

[bigscoop]

Let me clarify my position. I don't know what the answer is, or even if there might be an answer. But I do think we need to keep looking for alternate solutions in light of the past losing trend and the increase in exposure and numbers, which is only going to add to the permission seeking, permit inquiries, problems, etc., that Tom fears. So in my mind, those issues are already going to be on the rise.

I also want to clarify that I'm not talking anything that's just exclusive to metal detecting, I'm also concerned for other areas of our treasure hunting community as well.

 

[CASPER-2]

you'd have to check with a NY TH'er to clarify - but I think they need a permit to detect some spots
if a permit - permitted you to hit spots that were turned off to us - such as some state parks in my state = then i would gladly be in favor of them
I think die hards would gladly pay if they had to - others might fall by the wayside and yea if you got it taken away or fined for breaking
good TH'er rules - others might learn to fill their holes and not trespass

 

[bigscoop]

Entertaining the notion get's very complicated, i.e., city, county, state, etc. So many various levels of "jurisdiction", for lack of a better word, to consider. Maybe a state permit that provides the option of being honored/adopted by each jurisdiction? Basically the same concept as a general hunting license, something that would allow each of the various jurisdictions and participating parties to set their own parameters around it. I don't know, seems like a feasible concept worth exploring.

 

[spartacus53]

Casper-2 in NYC you need a permit to metal detect, but the permit is free

 

[armadillo66]

the more the government intrudes in my personal life and screws the pooch with how this country is being ran into the ground, in the back of my mind, the more I want to become an outlaw and go hit parks and other gov ground and historical homesites and other "under government control" properties in a guerilla fashion, clandestined, late night, whatever.
If there is silver coin or gold jewelery or historical stuff(it is wrong for old stuff to rust into nothing when it could be found and enjoyed) I could turn into money to feed my family and help us get by in these hard times, it is no different than makin moonshine or growing pot or other businesses we Americans have actually had reverence for under the nose of our out of control government,
Right or wrong in the eyes of folk here who are totally dedicated to refined hole excavation and returning lost items and donating finding services and all other effort to do this activity with integrity. I do not want to step on your toes, but these thoughts do go through my mind, especially the crazier things get. The TV shows are a very bad thing, I hate them, it is going to hang all of us. I say toss the freakin tea, fire the shot heard round the world, stand up to government control.

 

[bigscoop]

the more the government intrudes in my personal life and screws the pooch with how this country is being ran into the ground, in the back of my mind, the more I want to become an outlaw and go hit parks and other gov ground and historical homesites and other "under government control" properties in a guerilla fashion, clandestined, late night, whatever.
If there is silver coin or gold jewelery or historical stuff(it is wrong for old stuff to rust into nothing when it could be found and enjoyed) I could turn into money to feed my family and help us get by in these hard times, it is no different than makin moonshine or growing pot or other businesses we Americans have actually had reverence for under the nose of our out of control government,
Right or wrong in the eyes of folk here who are totally dedicated to refined hole excavation and returning lost items and donating finding services and all other effort to do this activity with integrity. I do not want to step on your toes, but these thoughts do go through my mind, especially the crazier things get. The TV shows are a very bad thing, I hate them, it is going to hang all of us. I say toss the freakin tea, fire the shot heard round the world, stand up to government control.

An absolute perfect example of why so many people are concerned for the future of our hobby, and why there's a need for an alternate solution in light of this growing attitude within the various circles of our hobby. Great post! Serves as a great example of the very threat we fear and why there is a growing need for alternate, controllable, solutions.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Big scoop, you say:

"Doing nothing already has an established track record of steady losses. Doing nothing certainly isn't the answer......"

[emphasis mine on "doing nothing"]

But that's just the point big-scoop, we hobbyist HAVE been doing SOMETHING. And that "something" is often detrimental to our very goal. The goal of: lack of rules. And that "something" has resulted in a host of places off-limits. And THAT is the "something" what I'm saying to have a cessation of. Namely: going around grovelling, asking permission, seeking sanctions, seeking to have permits, etc.... THOSE are the things (in more than 50% of the time, IMHO) that is hurting us, and getting rules written to "address the pressing issue" that we md'rs keep bringing to the tables. So my advice here is not "doing nothing", it's DOING SOMETHING! The cessation of the silliness that is bringing about the very rules and laws we seek to avoid! So you see, I do not advocate "doing nothing". The "something" I advocate is for us to stop being our own worst enemy and creating this self-fulfilling prophecy. See the irony?

 

[smcdmc]

I have truely been thinking all these years...I've been keeping this to myself, But if it helps in anyway to keep the hobby alive then here we go...
As i was growing up, and living up north i had to purchase a fishing license...Per season, I only used it once but i wanted to be legal incase if someone asked if i had 1, Only used it once didn't catch much but it was like $16.00 for the license. I truely didn't know where the money went to, probably for the town that it was issued in. For road repairs or what ever they saw fit....Hunting is the same way had to get a license if you wanted to go out there to hunt for hunting season...And same thing again what they used the money from the license was probably for the town it was issued in....Now We have alot and i do mean alot of avid Metal detector hunters out there. In my own opinion and which it is an opinion...Workers from the city, county, might see differently if we purchased a Metal Detector license, for the season for the year what ever...With the money that they collect from us would go help the county that was issued in...And if someone mis treats any form of land and they get caught they will loose their license to metal detect till next year...At least with knowing this we all will be careful at what we do...Now i would pay anything to get a license to metal detect if i knew i can go out and metal detect, Mostly beaches is where i would probably go...I myself want to keep this exciting hobby around. So i am thinking of any ideas where we all can meet in the middle and all be happy...
Like i said this is just my opinion... And In my opinion i think this will be a good idea I turely don't want to loose the ability to metal detect and i am sure everyone else here feels the same.... Thank You!!!!!!

Revenue from hunting and fishing licenses goes to the state not the city it was issued from. Some cities do require a permit for detecting, but oftentimes it is free, so it's not done for revenue purposes. If the state were to step in and require a metal detecting license like they do for hunting and fishing then why not charge for a swimming license, hiking license, frisbee throwing license, and a license for any other activity people do in public places.

 

[bigscoop]

Big scoop, you say:

"Doing nothing already has an established track record of steady losses. Doing nothing certainly isn't the answer......"

[emphasis mine on "doing nothing"]

But that's just the point big-scoop, we hobbyist HAVE been doing SOMETHING. And that "something" is often detrimental to our very goal. The goal of: lack of rules. And that "something" has resulted in a host of places off-limits. And THAT is the "something" what I'm saying to have a cessation of. Namely: going around grovelling, asking permission, seeking sanctions, seeking to have permits, etc.... THOSE are the things (in more than 50% of the time, IMHO) that is hurting us, and getting rules written to "address the pressing issue" that we md'rs keep bringing to the tables. So my advice here is not "doing nothing", it's DOING SOMETHING! The cessation of the silliness that is bringing about the very rules and laws we seek to avoid! So you see, I do not advocate "doing nothing". The "something" I advocate is for us to stop being our own worst enemy and creating this self-fulfilling prophecy. See the irony?

Tom, again, you really need to do a lot more research, and a much wider scope of research on the subject. Sure, some of it has been brought on by the actions of a few, will always be that way. But you are really missing the bigger picture by focusing all of your insight on a very tiny fraction of the overall causes and reasons. If you really think that "grovelling, asking permission, seeking sanctions, seeking to have permits, etc..." by hobbyist has caused 50% of laws and restrictions, well,.....it's just not true. Your statement that there is some "goal to have a lack of rules",....? Obviously you've not been paying attention as it's actually quite the reverse of that. Rules are a good thing and they are required, and "yes" everyone should at least make an effort to make themselves aware of the rules wherever they hunt....this failure has probably hurt our hobby as much as anything else, that and the total disregard for rules that are in place. On one hand you say you understand the need for rules, on the other hand you advise people not go about seeking those rules. But in any case, these are your opinions and you have the right to them, just as I have the right to mine. Obviously we're both steadfast in our personal views and positions.

 

[bigscoop]

Revenue from hunting and fishing licenses goes to the state not the city it was issued from.

True, but it doesn't have to be that way. Also, a great deal of this generated revenue is used to support public activities within various counties and near, or in, effected cities and the surrounding areas, which helps to attract additional revenues to these areas. This is quite common all over the country and many of these counties and cities are reliant on the revenues generated from those state supported activities.

 

[George (MN)]

While this might be better thread for legal issues forum, I'll answer here. Most of the bans that people report on here do not exist or are never enforced. Best wishes, George (MN)