C.S. Snake buckle??? & nice IH

[IAMZIM]

C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

Found a nice 1916d Lincolin, and an 1883 IH. Also this cool ornate hook/clip thingy.

 

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[kuger]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

here's some info i found:

The south imported as many items into their war effort, from cannon to cartridges, rifles to powder, bullets to belts. Among the plates imported from Britain were their classic "snake" belt buckle, referred to as such because of the "S"-shaped animal used as the loop connectors of the two belt loops. Some styles were indeed true "snakes," while others were snakes with duck-heads (like this one), and variants of multiple styles and types. The British military used them, as well as private British makers made them for retail. Then, within the South, there were local makers of these "snake" buckles to boot. A lot of "snakes" around! It is also very true that this British "snake" buckle style continued to be made and utilized throughout her majesty's empire/colonies for many decades after the war. Sadly, many "snake" buckles are being passed for "Civil War," though many were made long afterward. And with so many variations known to exist from the War, it is hard to determine whether a plate is "period" or not by the size or style alone. BUT, with the construction of the brazing of the "loops" that the "snake" hooks into, we KNOW this is STRICTLY CIVIL WAR PERIOD!!! Dug specimens are nice, since they tell you it was found within a camp or battle. But non-dug ones abound from many places. This one measures 45mm by 72mm--which is the size of the snake buckle in Mullinax's CS Belt Buckle book, Plate 206 (though a different style). What is nice is that regardless, they are an affordable option for collector's to exemplify one of the South's well-used plates.

http://www.championhillrelics.com/bucklesplates.htm

......I will say again..........many of these are in fact Pre Civil War!!!

 

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[Dig It Man]

Re: Weird ornate hook/clip something? & nice IH

Nice Civil War Snake buckle, I dug one just like it, but yours is in fantastic condition! Blows the coins away as to value. HH

Can anyone enlighten me as to why these are 'only' CW period? Bearing in mind I have found a few over here.

I,m no expert but there are many different types of these and many are called Civil War that are not, but the design on this one matches the ones that have been found in confederate camps exactly. That is what I go by, the design, and size, but you are right about them used before and after the Civil War. HH

I'm no expert either, I just hoped these were more studied over there than here. You are right there are many different designs, & some are still worn on Naval uniforms, so they are used until the present & back into the 16th C when they first appeared.
All I can guess, having seen many matches to the one found here in the UK, that these must have been manufactured here & shipped to the US. If someone has date information, please come forward? I would have placed it in the pre-CW period, but doesn't mean they were not using old fittings

England did supply the south with a lot of things during the civil war, so that item could be one of the items supplied.

 

[kuger]

Re: Weird ornate hook/clip something? & nice IH

Nice Civil War Snake buckle, I dug one just like it, but yours is in fantastic condition! Blows the coins away as to value. HH

Can anyone enlighten me as to why these are 'only' CW period? Bearing in mind I have found a few over here.

I,m no expert but there are many different types of these and many are called Civil War that are not, but the design on this one matches the ones that have been found in confederate camps exactly. That is what I go by, the design, and size, but you are right about them used before and after the Civil War. HH

I'm no expert either, I just hoped these were more studied over there than here. You are right there are many different designs, & some are still worn on Naval uniforms, so they are used until the present & back into the 16th C when they first appeared.
All I can guess, having seen many matches to the one found here in the UK, that these must have been manufactured here & shipped to the US. If someone has date information, please come forward? I would have placed it in the pre-CW period, but doesn't mean they were not using old fittings

England did supply the south with a lot of things during the civil war, so that item could be one of the items supplied.

Is the C.W. the only significant period in our Nations history?Was there any C.W. activity in Montana?If the only examples of these buckles came during the C.W. how did the ones that come from sites that Pre Date the C.W. get here?Did the only Brits come to America during the C.W?

 

[IAMZIM]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

Hmm, the more i look the more i wonder if this is a "newer" early 19th century version of the buckle, too bad there is no book or guide i could look in, id sure like to know for sure

 

[CRUSADER]

Re: Weird ornate hook/clip something? & nice IH

Nice Civil War Snake buckle, I dug one just like it, but yours is in fantastic condition! Blows the coins away as to value. HH

Can anyone enlighten me as to why these are 'only' CW period? Bearing in mind I have found a few over here.

I,m no expert but there are many different types of these and many are called Civil War that are not, but the design on this one matches the ones that have been found in confederate camps exactly. That is what I go by, the design, and size, but you are right about them used before and after the Civil War. HH

I'm no expert either, I just hoped these were more studied over there than here. You are right there are many different designs, & some are still worn on Naval uniforms, so they are used until the present & back into the 16th C when they first appeared.
All I can guess, having seen many matches to the one found here in the UK, that these must have been manufactured here & shipped to the US. If someone has date information, please come forward? I would have placed it in the pre-CW period, but doesn't mean they were not using old fittings

England did supply the south with a lot of things during the civil war, so that item could be one of the items supplied.

Is the C.W. the only significant period in our Nations history?Was there any C.W. activity in Montana?If the only examples of these buckles came during the C.W. how did the ones that come from sites that Pre Date the C.W. get here?Did the only Brits come to America during the C.W?

See, this is interesting. I would like to see (not from yourself, just generally speaking), some kind of typology study of these.
For example, we know they are made here (UK) but I'm unsure if we have good records of what type was made by whom & where. Assuming we can establish which types were English (try not to confuse things too much with how many were imported from Europe, that will really confuse things), does the ones from the US manufactured examples copy our designs exactly or deviate at all?
It would be a good study area, because I don't think anyone has a clue (although maybe they do & I haven't crossed them yet)

 

[kuger]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

There is a book out dedicated wholly to these buckles.I have not laid hands on it as of yet though.I have seen these come from Australia with various names on them as well"Victoria",Melbourne",that variety may be the Palatapus",type as well?

 

[CRUSADER]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

There is a book out dedicated wholly to these buckles.I have not laid hands on it as of yet though.I have seen these come from Australia with various names on them as well"Victoria",Melbourne",that variety may be the Palatapus",type as well?

If you get the title, please share, I'm unaware of it, & I would get a copy.

 

[kuger]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

There is a book out dedicated wholly to these buckles.I have not laid hands on it as of yet though.I have seen these come from Australia with various names on them as well"Victoria",Melbourne",that variety may be the Palatapus",type as well?

If you get the title, please share, I'm unaware of it, & I would get a copy.

I am looking Cru,I know I have seen it several times in the past,but even though I have seen a hanful dug here,I never could warrant getting the book(wish I did now,ya got me wanting it!!)
Not sure if somebody posted this link?
http://www.colchestertreasurehunting.co.uk/s/snakebuckles.htm

 

[{Sentinel}]

Re: Weird ornate hook/clip something? & nice IH

Just to hopin here guys.....there are over 27 different types of these buckles and many Pre Date the C.W.,and I can also tell you a whole lot of em made here to the U.S. long before the C.W. ........a whole bunch!!!!

Very nice find buddy I agree with Kuger. It is a great find but nonetheless, there were a plethora of these buckles produced and many of different folks both before the Civil War and after, both North and South, England and the U.S., wore them so I'm not so sure you can link it to the Confederate States unless there's some extenuating circumstances lending themselves to the provenance of the item. That being said, it is still a terrific buckle and you should be proud to own it!

 

[kuger]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

here are a few interesting tid bits.................http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?5701-Interesting-Snake-buckle-belt

Yes,this is a great find!!Given the area the finder is from....a lot of mining went on,which means men from all over the world and all walks of life came,Veterans,of wars(could be C.W.?)Could have been surplus bought while in Britain,before venturing out to strike it rich?Could have no military affiliation at all?Maybe if I can stumble on that book again we may know?I can picture the cover of the book,but I will be darned if I can find it!!

 

[Don in SJ]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

Interesting subject and glad Crusader "challenged" the CW era part. I found a "Military Interest" forum that deals with this subject in great detail and after reading it, I am convinced that perhaps the vast majority found are not CW related at all, unless found in situ with definite other relics of that time frame only.

There are 3 pages of replies on the forum and quite a few examples and even with the belts and one photo of a WWI individual wearing a snake belt buckle. On page 2 is perhaps the most knowledgeable person on snake belt buckles, and he seems to say he is gathering data to write a book on them, since it appears there is no such reference at this time. (I did copy and paste his first major reply to the subject below)

I strongly suggest anyone seriously interested in more information on the snake belts read all the replies on this link.

Here is the link with all the info: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/8636-snake-buckle-belt/

Attaching a few quotes for those who might be too lazy to read the forum replies.

"Back in the 60's when few knew better these were marketed as Confederate buckles"

It was used in Canada on the Oliver pattern leather equipment, which was modified for use in the First World War.

Here is a pic of my Grandad early in WW1,he was in the Royal Warwickshire Regiment and has on a snake belt in this photo.

Hello Jeff,
Just found your post and this forum. Your first snake is the style that is most popular on Canadian snake buckled belts of the Oliver pattern, as another member wrote, used by Canadian troops during the Boer War and later belts worn by Canadian units in WW1. This style was also used during the American Civil War, but it was a less common pattern. Most of the this pattern buckle offered as American Civil War are really the post Civil War pieces of Canadian origin. I refer to this variety as the tri-foliate variety - notice the three fingers or digits that extend from the center band. The keepers on this style snake sometimes have extended rather than overlapping connector loops. Let me explain that there are two parts to each keeper - the loop through which the belt loops and the horizontally mounted ring through which the snake links. This ring normally overlaps the vertical belt loop on most keepers, but many of the Canadian buckles feature an extended ring that is attached to the side of the belt loop rather than directly overlapping it. I hope this makes sense. Then again, your examples also include bent ring keepers with and without sliders to cover the unbraised ends - as for as brass wire keepers, but iron and steel keepers are also used and many are gilded or silver washed or plated with nickel, tin and later chromed. Luckily, the keepers are not as complex a subtopic as the snake patterns!

Snake buckles were used by and in most of the former British Colonies - as in America, Australia, Canada, Hong Kong, and New Zealand. Their use extends in an almost unbroken series back to Tudor period - on sword belts, as seen in period paintings. A few styles extend over generations of users, but differences are recognizable to distinguish individual makers, but identifying makers would be a near impossible task through time. I am not aware of much extensive literature on snake buckles, but I have amassed 215 examples and a few score of images of soldiers and others sporting snake buckles - for a book. Probably a series of books, starting with an introductory text.
Your last snake looks more like the type of pattern used by freemasons to fasten their aprons - an extremely specialized branch of snake buckle use that was largely secretive until recently. The Masonic snakes are usually smaller and mounted on smaller and thinner wire keepers than those employed by the military.

British police have also utilized snakes as well as Hong Kong police, Royal Canadian and their predecessors the Northwest Mounted police of Canada. Australian and New Zealand police also have used snake buckles in the past. The RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary) and the earlier RIC force used snake buckles up into the 1970s.

There is another whole major branch of snake buckles that use what I term plate keepers rather than wire keepers. The most familiar example is the lions head keepers used by Cavalry units. The French have extended the use of many different plate types including medusa heads and various symbols, such as horns, stars, quarter moons, etc. The French use extends from the Napoleonic period to at least pre-WWII.


I hope this data helps us all with more knowledge about the snake buckles.

Regardless of its era the snake buckles, should be on everybody's wish list, they are a neat looking relic. Congrats on finding one in Big Sky Country..............

Don

 

[kuger]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

 

[MKnTenn]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

I would like to see a close up of where the small loop is attached to the larger belt loop. The ones we have dug in Civil War sites have had a white lead type of soldier holding them together, not brazed together with brass. I'm not saying it dates it to the Civil War, but it is how the ones we dug were. Your snake is EXACTLY like the two I've dug in Civil War sites, nice find. HH

 

[IAMZIM]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

Here are some close-up pics of the part i think you are talking about....Hope it helps!

 

[MKnTenn]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

That looks to be the same construction as the ones we dug, HH

 

[kuger]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

I still cant find that dang book!!I seen a post on an Aussie site Timbuctoo(?)Tipan is on it,that had quite a few buckles of this type,and I read somewhere (maybe there about the 20 something varieties)

this isnt the post,but another on the same forum http://forum.kimbucktwo.com/index.php/topic,7441.0.html
I will post pics tonight of the ones I know came from Pre C.W. sites

 

[kuger]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

Here are a couple from Pre C.W sites..............sites that did not exist after 1860......

 

[Broken knee]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

Here are a couple from Pre C.W sites..............sites that did not exist after 1860......

What do you mean by sites that did not exist after 1860... where did they go?
Broken Knee

 

[kuger]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

Here are a couple from Pre C.W sites..............sites that did not exist after 1860......

What do you mean by sites that did not exist after 1860... where did they go?
Broken Knee

abandoned,gone................one burned in 1858,and was never occupied again

 

[Broken knee]

Re: C.S. Snake buckle & nice IH

Here are a couple from Pre C.W sites..............sites that did not exist after 1860......

What do you mean by sites that did not exist after 1860... where did they go?
Broken Knee

abandoned,gone................one burned in 1858,and was never occupied again

BK