GW
No easy thing to articulate.. A solution.... First would be to recognize that the world and things are quite different then what they were in `1872.. And many things have changed. Including land use.. Saying Recreational prospecting doesn't exist doesn't make it so.. recreational prospecting is not a term created by the government or land agencies to takes people rights away.. It a real part of land use today. And its a valid use. But its most certainly not a use mining law applies to..
Now for me a lot of problems arise is because so many people want the rights mining law gives just not the responsibility.. AMRA GPAA and the others are Recreational they use the land Recreationally.. Why would mining law apply to their type of use? It most certainly wasn't written with that kind of use in mind! The fact that these Recreational clubs who sit their and manipulate mining law for their convenience is wrong. Its a big problem... Lines will be drawn and legal definitions will be written . And the community will suffer..
I personally have nothing against recreational prospecting. And its most certainly not my intent to discourage people from it.. In fact I love seeing people outside and making use of the land and being apart of it..
I do personally think donating to these groups is money wasted. I put AMRA and these other groups in the same catergory as TV Evangelism. Fraud at its best.. but that's just my opinion..
ignoring something and saying its not a real thing doesn't make it true. And for me I most certainly wouldn't let mining advocacy groups and mining clubs who soley exploit recreational mining be allowed to go around claiming to represent anything but Recreational mining.. If these recreational clubs are allowed to continue representing the mining community ;everyone will suffer.. We suffer now for it..
You think these clubs are getting people to stand up for their rights? What rights? to mine recreationally any way they want?
These are my thoughts and opinions.. What of it?
What makes the way people are digging on a claim that is held by a private citizen "recreational" ? What is the Metric...is there a checklist based on equipment? Or is it because the dude drove over from Florida to hit three different claims over a month and a half? Say a guy had two claims for fifteen years and wants to share one with a club in exchange for membership. He pulls four ounces a year running a thousand dollar power sluice two afternoons and two weekend days a week. mostly alone but sometimes with a partner. Is he recreational. Or if he only pulls two ounces is he recreational. He pays his fees with part of his take and his gear is simple home made and gas doesn't put him in the hole. As his claim is less than a mile from his house. The majority of the gold dug will add to his retirement. Now that he is the member of a club is he recreational? Or does it only count when he has his membership card and is on a club claim? Or should he avoid cracking a smile or a beer? Does he lose his professional status if he only works the wet season?
Or heres one. A guy watches a gold show on t.v. lives in Kansas. He gets bit by the bug goes to Denver to visit Kevin and actually finds his first gold in creek he is hooked for sure put his poke is flypoop. He retires in six months. He spends countless hours online reading forums asking questions meeting people online he befriends a nice person in Arizona. Makes plans for the spring. He's learned enough to hold his own with a pan. Once he is in the area he see's his first recirc set up and decides he doesn't mind filling buckets. Around the campfire the expected conversations happen ideas and views are shared. These guys all happen to have GPAA membership...some are snowbirds some live year round. They all worked hard to get where they are but, are very glad they left the rat race young enough to go out and get sore and sunburned. When he goes back to his r.v. he is up all night telling himself he can do it. He can be like them and have vials of gold numerous nuggets and specimins . And friends to share the stories with.
Is he a recreational prospector? Is it because it wasn't his first "Career" choice? Or because he doesn't sell his gold? Or all of it? Or is he only recreational if he goes over to one of the GPAA claims instead of the guy who invited him to Arizona. If his first season out he only digs a half ounce because he runs too much overburden and no one really showed him indicators..proper sampling or the benifits of a long screwdriver? Does he not quailify anymore?
Is there going to be an application Victor? A form to turn into the Dept. of miners vetting? Stating how much we plan to work ,the type of gear we want to run and where? Do we have to promise to never join or donate to any prospecting club and prove that we do not donate to any of the nefarious rights groups or non profits?
Is it required that mining will be our sole source of income? Do we have to report our finds and pay taxes before we make any sells of the valuable minerals recovered?
If a person states that he prospects as a hobby or for recreation does that really mean that he should only dig in certain areas
?
I'll repeat that IF A PERSON STATES HE PROSPECTS AS A HOBBY OR RECREATION DOES THAT REALLY MEAN THAT HE SHOULD ONLY DIG IN CERTAIN AREAS
??
I like the mining law because it covers everyone equally on public lands. I do not have to answer to or justify any of my above points. I can research and put boots on the ground and do what I want within the law.
You want to change that. You are labeling people and trying to change what law affects them and actually complicate things. The mining acts are a simple and straight forward. Trying to catagorize and add more steps is not simple.
Based on what your saying it seems you want there to be no club claims. Even though 90% of claims that clubs use are owned by people who are in no way legally bound to give access except for the terms of what ever temporary lease is in place between the owner and the officer of the club that handles those issues. But, I guess what your saying is those guys are recreational so they shouldn't have the right to share their claims with others.
So how would you make the seperation? For those that fit into the recreational use catagory vs. a professional. What to you suggest they should do? sign up for permits to dig only in designated areas run by an agency?
Are you going too get a politician to create a bill outlawing prospecting clubs and task a government agency with making sure no one gets together and forms groups to help educate people and give them easier places to access.
Do you have spreadsheets created showing how much money has been fleeced from all these unsuspecting prospectors who foolishly joined clubs. I'm sure many would like to see exactly how their money was wasted. I figure since you already started an investigation into AMRA you must have some hard facts.
How are they exploiting people? Who have you talked to that feels they have been ripped off? And I don't mean on the mental level. What actual harm has come to anyone you have talked to? Membership is voluntary. Even if someone doesn't find gold on a club claim they can't legally claim to have been duped or harmed.
I promise you if over the last four decades people in the private sector weren't orginizing into these groups getting together and standing up funneling money reaching out to legislators and all the things that club members do the situation would be a lot worse than it is now. Claiming that they do more harm than good is just not true. They may not have made things better or more agreablr to Victor Marshall... but, they have made things better for many educated thousands and kept us all at least treading water instead of just being washed away. I know most don't chime in and say much but, I know that your feelings on the subject are not shared by the vast majority of citizens you catagorize as 'Recreational Prospectors"
Keeping in mind you want the label to stick...please firm it up what by some kind of definition, what is a "Recreational Prospector" and what do you want to be done with them?
