Can you run your car on water? Some interesting links.

I looked at DFD's drawing again...

Intent is to create gaseous vapor by drawing intake through a volume of liquid gasoline.
..then through (carburetor) and also a water vapor bubbler into the intake tract.

For a clean, efficient burn, to create optimal power, a certain and specific ratio of fuel to air is needed.

That's what a carburetor does.
Liquid gasoline is mixed at the venturi with incoming air, and the gaseous vapor is drawn into the cylinder where it is ignited. I think 15:1 is a rich mixture, somewhere around 20-22:1 is optimal, and over that is lean.

Ignition timing is critical for development of max torque, or horsepower.

The water vapor drawn in changes the burn rate, allowing timing to be advanced for a more complete burn of the fuel vapor without pre-ignition (pinging) which is evidence of horsepower loss.

Fuel injection is more precise mechanical atomization of the liquid fuel, direct into the cylinder, or at the port.
You can also introduce water vapor for a burn retardant, here.

I've seen where guys with huge campers on their pickups, or in a large motorhome, put a water injector in for long hillclimbs out in the desert areas or Colorado mountains. They used a windshield washer pump and tank to inject water to intake but only used it on long hard pulls. Not when just going on down the road...

Propane conversions for ICE's use a diaphram for metering the vapor as it mixes with air at the optimal ratio.

I'm thinking the brown's gas generators in auto use are modifying the burn rate.
Apparently a fuel cell is generating electric current?
(I just can't get past the expensive components.)

If you got a stable of hay burners, methane is a given! Whew!
It's got to be collected, and stored under pressure, so it can be force fed to metering device on an engine.

Our modern high speed engines require a precise fuel-air ratio to run smoothly.

Old style low rpm flywheel engines would most likely be more suitable for imprecise application of fuel supplied by a rudimentary system.

I just don't know where propane, methane, and HHO are all positioned on a volatility or octane chart.

My knowledge of physics is real weak, but I've been a pretty fair mechanic over the years.

There's an awful lot I don't know...

Best,
rmptr
 

Smee said:
rmptr said:
Can you get us a circuit diagram and callout sheet for the Pulse Width Modulator?

Thanks,
rmptr

At work right now, but how about this one: http://ece-www.colorado.edu/~ecen4618/lab2.pdf

At least it gives a bit of information about the simplicity of design.

An RC circuit uses a capacitor and resistor (and usually a transistor for switching) to create pulsed DC current. The frequency is the number of pulses per second. That can be adjusted by using a potentiometer (variable resistor) to adjust the length of the pulses by regulating how long the capacitor takes to charge up.

I built a simple one once, with an antenna attached, and could wipe out every television signal in about 100 yards. Lived in the country and our nearest neighbor was about 1/4 mile away so it didn't interfere with anyone's signal but mine. It was an experiment which was accidentally turned on while in traffic one day, and I noticed that - if you accidentally adjusted the variable resistor - it could turn off the rap music radio station in the car next to me and create the most god-awful static you ever heard at 400 watts. ::)

ROFLOL - just picturing the puzzlement.
 

rmptr said:
<snip>
I'm thinking the brown's gas generators in auto use are modifying the burn rate.
Apparently a fuel cell is generating electric current?
(I just can't get past the expensive components.)

If you got a stable of hay burners, methane is a given! Whew!
It's got to be collected, and stored under pressure, so it can be force fed to metering device on an engine.

Our modern high speed engines require a precise fuel-air ratio to run smoothly.

Old style low rpm flywheel engines would most likely be more suitable for imprecise application of fuel supplied by a rudimentary system.

I just don't know where propane, methane, and HHO are all positioned on a volatility or octane chart.

My knowledge of physics is real weak, but I've been a pretty fair mechanic over the years.

There's an awful lot I don't know...

Best,
rmptr

Y'might take another look at that Water 4 Gas website - they've got pictures and diagrams (simplified so you still gotta buy the info, natch). You might have to look around a bit, but ...

If I have this right, it's not actually water that's going in, the water has been split apart into Oxygen & Hydrogen, so it's not really water any more. That is used to (how'd you put that? atomization?) make a mistier mist of the gas inside the engine.

The power comes from the battery - I think they hooked it up via the ignition somehow So you could still sit at Sonic with the radio on, but no hydrogen stuff happening.

Anyway, the FAQs there were pretty interesting. Shoot, the whole concept is interesting!

Nan
 

Hey Nan,

I sent RMPTR all the Water4Gas stuff.

It's not exactly atomization. If that were the case, it would be in water mist form. This is a complete breakup of the molecules into gas by the introduction of electricity to a solution of baking soda and water. The Oxygen and Hydrogen are then fed back into the engine's intake via the engine's vacuum.

Simple design. Just takes a lot of fiddling around to optimize it for your particular engine's needs.

Oh yeah, and as far as the electrical hookup: you just tie it in with something that only gets juice when the ignition is on (windshield wipers are best because they are rarely used, hence no current loss to the system).

Best-Mike
 

gollum said:
Hey Nan,

I sent RMPTR all the Water4Gas stuff.

It's not exactly atomization. If that were the case, it would be in water mist form. This is a complete breakup of the molecules into gas by the introduction of electricity to a solution of baking soda and water. The Oxygen and Hydrogen are then fed back into the engine's intake via the engine's vacuum.

Simple design. Just takes a lot of fiddling around to optimize it for your particular engine's needs.

Oh yeah, and as far as the electrical hookup: you just tie it in with something that only gets juice when the ignition is on (windshield wipers are best because they are rarely used, hence no current loss to the system).

Best-Mike

I can't figure why, but the Aquatune does have an "on/off" switch on their system. Only real use I have seen for it is to prove the difference between when it is on and boosting performance and when it is off. BTW, you can feel it when the switch is thrown. 8)
 

Hey Smee,

It does what you use it for, but it is also for troubleshooting and Emergency Shutoff as well. If an electric fire starts, or you use too much baking soda, and it gets too hot, you can shut down the whole system until you straighten things out.


Best-Mike
 

Smee, what is your overall thoughts of the Aquatune system? I'm strongly considering going with them this semester and driving over to Arkansas to have an Aquatune dealer install it on my 4-Runner. I've contemplated the home made kits, but I think I'd rather go with something that is more reputable and proven. I'm not as concerned with the added horsepower and the system being cleaned by prolonged use, though both are great benefits... but I just want to cut my MPG significantly by adding the HHO system.

Bran <><
 

Bran, I just read through the Water4gas info for the 1st time...
I'm going to review a couple more times, just to make sure I'm not missing anything.

The HHO HOD system is very simple to build and install. There's really NOT much reason to spend the bucks on a more expensive unit. Very nice fellow who makes the presentation. He is very pleased he is able to contribute to a better world, and explains everything, so even a caveman could do it.

It will introduce a combustible element (HHO), a burn rate modifier, that will allow your car engine to run leaner. Electric consumption is actually rather low. It's regulated by the amount of bicarb used.
If all the info he's presenting is correct, a minimal system is the most efficient.
If your car has a computer you will need to at least modify the 02 sensor in the exhaust, in addition, or the computer will compensate for the clean burn by dumping in more fuel to compensate for the lean burn.
This CAN be done easily. The simplest method is by wrapping it well with aluminum foil to convince it that it's
hotter than it actually is. Or, you can insert a variable pot in the output line to the computer and dial it in as you drive on the road.

He uses two simple spirals of stainless wire on a plexiglass former, inside a mason jar with plastic lid.

He likes 316L stainless, which I don't know about...

But sizewise, you could stop by any welding shop that does stainless and give the welder a buck or two for the 6ft of wire you will need... He can run some out of his MIG welder... I think.

Best,
rmptr
 

rmptr said:
Bran, I just read through the Water4gas info for the 1st time...
I'm going to review a couple more times, just to make sure I'm not missing anything.

The HHO HOD system is very simple to build and install. There's really NOT much reason to spend the bucks on a more expensive unit. Very nice fellow who makes the presentation. He is very pleased he is able to contribute to a better world, and explains everything, so even a caveman could do it.

It will introduce a combustible element (HHO), a burn rate modifier, that will allow your car engine to run leaner. Electric consumption is actually rather low. It's regulated by the amount of bicarb used.
If all the info he's presenting is correct, a minimal system is the most efficient.
If your car has a computer you will need to at least modify the 02 sensor in the exhaust, in addition, or the computer will compensate for the clean burn by dumping in more fuel to compensate for the lean burn.
This CAN be done easily. The simplest method is by wrapping it well with aluminum foil to convince it that it's
hotter than it actually is. Or, you can insert a variable pot in the output line to the computer and dial it in as you drive on the road.

He uses two simple spirals of stainless wire on a plexiglass former, inside a mason jar with plastic lid.

He likes 316L stainless, which I don't know about...

But sizewise, you could stop by any welding shop that does stainless and give the welder a buck or two for the 6ft of wire you will need... He can run some out of his MIG welder... I think.

Best,
rmptr

Thanks for the input rmptr! I'll have to look more into the "build it yourself" aspect of it, as I was talking to someone about that yesterday. He actually was talking about the "Nay System" (sp?) that used that gas fume system to make every drop of gasoline as efficient as it can be. I was trying to find the guy and his theories online, but couldn't find anything... which leads me to think that I may have misspelled his name.
Either case, thanks again for all the info!! :)

Bran <><
 

Hey RMPTR,

Go ahead and send the stuff to anyone who asks for it. I think they even authorized doing so in one of the two books.

Sounds like you have a pretty good grip on the process and equipment. You are correct when you state that the minimal system would be okay, as long as you trick the O2 Sensors, but.................. to get the absolute best results, carefully log your initial setup/results, and start tweaking what you've got, to see how good it can get.

Best-Mike
 

Among the things I like about Joe's presentation is that he has been determined to keep his resources specifically within reach of everyone.

He clearly points out that all is within the public domain.

This is actually old technology.

In part, we've been sold a bill of goods by some HUGE corps interested in promoting their own agenda.

...Much like the underlying message in 'Who Framed Roger Rabbit'.

"Dontcha' have a car, mister?"
"Who needs a car in LA? We got the best public transportation in the world!"

.....
In years gone by I had known a bunch of 'free energy' people. They're always fun, at the least!
One fellow had a 'Joe Cell' in his vehicle... with a burned up motor...
He claimed his kid took it for a road trip and didn't operate it correctly.

That was then, and this is NOW.
Cost of gasoline was serious, then, but outrageous, now.

Just a few dollars expended can easily pay for itself in a short period of time.

At near $5 a gallon here in CA, all the fuel saving techniques presented in addition to the HHO HOD system should be implemented by everyone.

Especially by someone planning for a road trip.

I'll put them together in a post soon.

We've got something of a crisis going on, here, and it will be a week or so 'til I can tell if it's resolved.
Gotta focus on it.

...as another fellow posted here a while back, purchase your fuel 1st thing in the morning.
Especially if filling your tank for a long trip.

Fuel is sold by distributors at a temperature related specific gravity.
It's sold to consumers irregardless of that.
Just recently, a govt agency was said to have been investigating the practice.

So, there is significant validity that every bit helps, as the cost rises.

Best,
Recovers Many Pull Tab Relics
 

This is kind of a double post...
Just wanted to make sure that everyone got these newest sites I looked at.

I'm skeptical there is a NEED to spend $600 - $700 for a functioning unit.
It can be done well for far less $'s...

I'm not sure if these have all been posted yet.
They are recommended sources to install HHO HOD on your present vehicle.

runyourcarwithwater.com Kit for sale $50

water4gas.com Ebooks for sale

mindstrain.com Large pdf downloads Free, poor bandwidth

smacksboosters Kits for sale

HHOForums.com Very informative forum

http://www.freewebs.com/jhines2/index.htm I just found this one & like it... Pictures and valid diagrams

Best,
rmptr
 

Good afternoon, hi rmptr Here is the data sent to my son up in Tucson, it is supposedly by far the best ??? But $$$$$$

Gulum, try one on "our" White Range Rover. If it works, will install one on my Isuzu Trooper for use in the back country where there are no gas stations..

Don Jose de La Mancha
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: powertoall@safe-mail.net
To: admin@EnergyEmpire.com
Subject: WE WOULD LOVE TO WELCOME YOU TO THE PICC/HAFC ENGINE MODIFICATION KIT INSTALLATION TEAM.
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:48:54 -0400


We received your request for information about our new two-step engine modification technology and how to get involved as a local installer or trainer for this exciting innovation for the automobile industry. There are several options for training that may interest you, but first we would like to inform you about how you may go about learning more about the technologies than you may have already seen on the PICC web site. If you have not watched the PICC DVD on that site and the HAFC DVD as well, we recommend that you do that first. You could also go to www.installersupport.info to see some of the many questions we have gotten from our installers as they have began installing the HAFC kit. Of course this relates more to those who have already been trained to install the first step (the HAFC) in our two step process. If you want to know more about what other mechanics had to say about the training program, I will include some of their comments as an attachment. We also have information on the first two dozen installations our students did at our academy workshop in New Jersey, which I will also include as an attachment.





We believe that this is more than extra income instruction. This can be a very lucrative career. In the first place, there are over 100 million cars in the USA alone. EVERY one of them need, at the least, our universal (one size fits all) Hydro-Assist Fuel Cell kit on them. Then, when the Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter is ready for market and approved as a Catalytic Converter replacement, well over half of them will want to upgrade to that even more amazing plasma fuel conversion. It takes 4 hours to install an HAFC kit and it will take more like 8 hours for the upgrade into the PICC. In addition, there are new cars hitting the market every year and a whole lot more in the rest of the world. This is like being at the ground floor of a re-evolution of the automobile. There are opportunities to install, teach, and tune in this new innovation.





We are actively seeking mechanics for our training program to learn how to properly install the HAFC kit and to teach others in their local area in live training how to do it as well. It should take an average of four hours to do an installation. We recommend to our kit buyers that they pay the mechanic we refer to them four hundred dollars for an installation. We like to try to stay in that area to support a reasonable payback projection for the total system. If you were to install two kits a day, you should be able to make $800 a day. Upon being certified as an installer, you can purchase kits below retail for your own customers and make money selling them as well as installing them. Of course we will refer customers to you from our national (and international) dealer network of 2,000 dealers in place now.





If you have a shop and wish to train your own mechanics to do the installs and make $800 per day for their labor, or just like to teach, then we recommend becoming a Certified Trainer. As a Certified Trainer you can charge local mechanics $250 per day for a two day training and, after testing them, be able to certify them to become Certified Installers. As a CT (Certified Trainer) you can have 6 students in your local training program at a time (a potential income of $1,500 per day for the teacher.) If a CT has an assistant (perhaps a mechanic he has trained) then, together, they could teach as many as ten students at a time, and make the instructor a total of $2,500 per day minus the wages of the assistant. Of course an instructor can install kits himself for pay (including class projects the he supervises and gets his students to actually do the installations.) Being certified as an instructor has far more potential than being a Certified Installer.



There is another opportunity that offers the greatest income potential for those technicians who are qualified to tune the control system that we include in the HAFC kit. All those who train for the technology are taught the basics of the installation of the mini-computer (The Optimizer) that we provide with the kit. The Optimizer must be properly wired to the car’s emission control system (wiring diagrams can be obtained from either Alldata or Mitchell on the internet.) Of course there is a delicate balance in the emissions control system between all the sensors and the computer that controls it. When we add several devices to the car’s operation (our vaporizer/ionizer, our covalizer, and our water gas producing fuel cell) it changes the dynamics of the fuel system. Of course the manufacturer did not anticipate this extra efficiency and the imbalance of what the sensors are reporting can cause the system to go into default and all sorts of knee jerk reactions designed to defeat whatever is going on. Our mini-computer gets the on board computer to settle down and actually teaches their computer to run our after market system. Like the “good wife” we make it think this is all its own idea. In order to do this, it takes a technician with a strong understanding of the emissions control systems in various cars, and strong command of the dynamics at play in order to set the Optimizer to properly perform this function. We have discovered that not all mechanics have the background and developed skills to “tune” the system. We give everyone the chance to learn it and to try it. If we are convinced you have what it takes, we will provide you with additional training to become a Certified Tuning Technician. When you have it down, a car can be tuned in as little as fifteen minutes. All the mechanics in the region who do not have the training in this area will be sending their customers with properly installed vehicles to the CTT for the final touch. A CTT can charge $100 to tune the vehicle. At fifteen minutes each, the CTT can earn as much as $400 an hour. Of course the CTT will also learn the installation through the more advanced teacher’s training course, and can install kits, teach others to install kits and get paid to tune them.



The first step is to get signed up for a training course. Many of our Trainer graduates are setting up two-day classes in their local area for local installers. The fee for these classes is $500 and is paid to the trainer. There are some classes that are open to outsiders (not from the area) if there is not yet an installer class in your area. Of course that is a great opportunity for someone who wants to start classes in the area and is willing to get certified as a trainer. We do have some live training classes for the CT (Certified Trainer position.) The live course is four days long and costs $1,000. We teach them in New Jersey, New Mexico, and the Great Lakes region. Of course you can get the first day for free if you have doubts and want to be convinced before coming back to the other three days and getting certified. We also have a TV correspondence course for the Certified Trainer position that will allow that guy who is just too busy to go anywhere to study on the weekend and at nights at home over the TV. In this case, we can arrange for you to review the DVDs at home before making a commitment to buy the course, but you MUST at least let us hold a check or credit card number that we can hit for $100 if we do not get the DVDs back and you do not go forward. Get us back the DVDs within two weeks of your getting them to examine them if you decide not to get certified and there is no harm done. We know those who get even the first day of our training will get the point that this is the real deal, so we are willing to let you review the facts of what we are doing, but we also do want to be protected if you are holding something valuable of ours.



Those trainees who take the Certified Trainer course, whether at a live training or by correspondence, will be interviewed by a CTT (Certified Tuning Technician.) If, in the opinion of the CTT, the CT trainee is qualified for the advanced training as a tuner, then he will be given the opportunity to receive advanced instruction in tuning, and certified as a CTT when he proves himself. If there is a technician out there who feels he is qualified to get right into the tuning training, he can prepare his resume or background information and a request to go right to the top to Dutchman Enterprises. Just send it to me and I will submit it to them through the proper channels. We believe in channels in this program and do not appreciate, or have time for, those who try to jump over them. I can get you whatever you desire. If you want to find an installer class, just let me know. I will find out if, when, and where one is available. If you wish to come to a live Trainer class or to get the correspondence course, let me know that as well. You are at the right place at the right time. You requested information about this opportunity, which means you are interested in pursuing this. You will get more excited the more you do pursue it. If you feel you need to talk to someone who knows the mechanical end, there is a hot line for prospective installers, trainers, and tuners every Thursday at 3 PM Eastern Time. Our top trainer is the host. The phone number for this two hour hotline is (712) 432-1100 and the PIN number is 126599#.



Let me know if I can answers any questions you might have.



Sincerely,



Danny

www.EnergyEmpire.com
 

Don Jose,

Energy Empire device looks very interesting.
Perhaps new wave of the future?
As you said, though, it's pricey.

...I'm getting burned out on chasing the HHO HOD info around the web... It's eating my brain!

Bottom line?
It's a real thing. In it's crudest form it can get some sort of improvement.
Among the problems are that the electronic control module which controls the engine will sense the superior performance and seek to defeat it by overfueling, thus negating any benefit.

So, installation of a basic unit may require further electronic enhancement.

I also take exception to the lack of regulated metering with the delivery system.
The charge of HHO on demand is influence by vacuum, which is highest with a closed throttle, when it is needed the least.
Also, cell temp is prone to rise, increasing HHO production over a period of time during a single trip.
Basically, there is little that is consistent about the process without significant expense.

HHO generators are indeed a valuable industrial tool, sold as a Water Torch, and they are expensive.

Presumably, the big auto makers don't employ the technology because it adds a further wildcard to their proven technology and exponentially increases their liability.

As we climb to even more exorbitant price out of pocket for our liquid fuel of choice, more folks are willing to personally undertake a bit of risk to ease the pain.

I've added a few more source links over at the 150mpg thread.

Best,
rmptr
 

Thanks for the links Dave.
I'll drop in...

At the moment, my favorite is HHOForums for people building and running a unit.

best
 

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