CIRCA 1900 FRAMED BASEBALL PICTURE

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

"Play Ball"

I went to a swap meet recently and purchased an old, framed baseball player photo that I paid $10.00 for. I have already done quite a bit of research on it that can best be summed up with the following which is how I came up with a date of circa 1900 ... (Also see pictures).

1. The seller said he found it in a box of other junk and didn't know anything about it.
2. The frame is made of tin ~ Appears Victorian ~ Hand painted floral ~ Fold-out standee on back.
3. The frame is oval and measures 3 1/2" x 2 1/2"
4. The photo is sepa colored (brownish) and was developed in an oval shape then cut to fit.

5. Regarding the uniform ...

Uniform Parts:
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Caps - 1888 - Spalding:
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Shoes - 1883 - Spalding: National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Uniform/Collar - Last Used 1906
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Uniform/Beltless - First Used circa 1910
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Earliest Numbering of Jerseys - 1907-09
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Baseball History - First Major Leagues 1871 thru 1875
History of baseball in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Grain Elevators: Grain Elevators -- History

Pictures, etc ...


1. Framed Photo.

2. Photo Only.

3. Frame and Back. (Glass Not Shown).

4. Cropped Photo. I cannot read the words on the grain elevator.

Shoes from above link ~ He appears to be wearing #1 ~ Solid black high top. Ad is from 1883 Spalding catalog.

Cap ~ Appears to be either #11 or #19 ~ Mulit-sectioned top part. Ad is from 1888 Spalding catalog. I can't tell in my photo if the player is wearing a short or a long bill cap.

Uniform Pants/Beltless ~ Player in my photo is wearing a belt. Belts were last used on uniforms around 1910. This picture is the earliest known example that shows a beltless player and is dated 1913. It is said that prior to 1913 most players wore belts until they were discouraged and possibly even banned because defensive players would sometimes grab hold of the belt to stop an advancing runner.


Footnotes:

1. The Major Leagues were first introduced around 1871 to 1875.
2. Uniform numbering was first introduced in Major Leagues around 1907-1909. (My player has no visible number on his jersey.
3. Uniform "Collars" were last used around 1906. My player's jersey appears to have a collar.

Bottom Line Questions ...

1. Can you think of anything I missed?
2. do you agree with the circa 1900 date?
3. Do you think the player is ... Hometown Team ~ Farm/Minor League ~ Major League?
4. Can you think of any way to identify the location?
5. And what about the grain elevetor? Any clues there? Midwest?

6. And most important of all, do you happen to recognize The Player?

Thanks in advance for your time and interest. I realize I am asking some tough questions that may be impossible to answer, but I thought it would be fun anyway because Baseball season is upon us and I know there are a lot of fans out there like myself.

Sodabottlebob

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I have a few questions for anyone that's still interested. And this is one time when "opinions" are truly valuable because someone might detect something that others miss. Please forget about a possible location for the time being and focus on the buildings themselves. Also, let's not assume that the foreground building and the tower are one building, as they may very well be two seperate buildings. My questions pertain to the main tower only.

1. Do you think the tower is constructed of corrogated-metal-siding wood or all concrete?

2. Do you think the upper portion, or "little room" is centered in the tower or is offset?

3. Do you think the tower roof where the little room "sits" is flat or slanted?

4. Do you think the auger pipe (visible on the left) extends from the "side" of the tower or is in "front" of the tower?

5. Do you think what appears to be the top part of the auger is the auger itself or another slanted roof?

6. Do you think the blurry line where the "little room" and the main tower meet is a portion of a roof or something else?

As for myself, I really don't know if the tower is wood or concrete, nor do I know the answers to the auger questions. But I do suspect that ...

1. the little "upper room" is centered in the tower.

2. one portion of the tower roof is slanted (left-front) and one portion is flat (right side).

3. the "other" tower in my photo appears to be wood.

All opinions are welcomed. And for those that do respond, I recommend a "quote/reply" and then just fill in your answers accordingly.

As food for thought, (and not to suggest it's the tower in question) below is an example of a "concrete" tower with a "flat" roof.

No hurry, and thanks a lot to those that participate.

Bob


Blackwater, Missouri ~ If it ever had a "little room" on top, its gone now.

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I was wondering if you have tried enlisting the help of the owners of grainelevatorphotos<dot>com. It seems like they have enough experience with the topic of grain elevators!

Jason ~

I sent inquires to numerous grain elevator experts, but so far no one has the answer. One said there were about 20,000 elevators in the U.S. at one point, while others stated that most were either torn down or burnt down by accident. I guess grain elevators were nororious for catching fire.

Thanks.

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Jason ~

I double checked and I did send an inquiry to the site you posted. Here is the reply I received on May 20th ... (I'm not entirely sure what he means by "level" but suspect it has something to do with the height).



Bob,

Great old photo. I suspect your thinking of the midwest around 1910 for the photo is close. The style of the elevators is definitely more midwest than west but there's no way to be specific, even specific enough to state level. About that time there were probably close to 20,000 elevators in the U.S., most of them in the midwest. I have acquired some old grain elevator photos that all I can do in my cataloging is call them "unidentified." That's not real satisfying but sometimes I have to accept that status. Wish I could be of more help....

Best wishes,

Bruce Selyem

 

[zendog64]

Wow....20,000 elevators. Maybe the only solution is to find a listing of all Midwest grain elevators that existed during that time, and cross-reference them with old maps in order to see how many were located in the vicinity of a baseball field. That might narrow it down to..... a few hundred possibilities.

Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but I wonder if there's some sort of cheap facial recognition software available for download. A comparison with known ballplayers of the era might at least be able to tell you who the player "isn't". I recall seeing a show on (I think) the discovery channel, where someone used facial recognition software in order to determine if someone's antique photo was of Jesse James. If you had access to similar software, at least you wouldn't lose any sleep wondering if the picture is of Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner, Cy Young, or someone important.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

zen ~

I only mentioned this briefly in my post #239, but the Hall of Fame people said they were unable to determine who the player was because of the camera angle, etc; which did not provide them with enough "features" to go on. And because the uniform does not have any identifying clues either, it could be any one of hundreds (thousands) of players both major and minor league between 1900 and 1910. It seems to boil down to the location of the grain elevator.


Below is the grain elevator I am currently researching, but shown from the opposite side that I would like it to be. Plus, I believe the foreground building is seperated and not attached to the tower itself. You wouldn't believe how many "possibles" I've looked at and researched.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Bob

 

[zendog64]

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any database of companies which built GEs, or even the names of architects who designed them (the only one I found was A.E. Baxter). It would be nice if an expert could look at the pic and say "Why, that's definitely a Joe Schmo elevator. I'd recognize his signature style anywhere!" But I guess there just aren't any Frank Lloyd Wrights of grain elevators. "No formal school of architecture taught the Midwest American engineer how to design such a structure"- innovatecarmel.org

Here's pretty much the only guide I could find in regards to the different architectural styles of grain elevators: Grain Elevator Types 2a: Mature : Square-Bin (IHS Built Environment Typology) I'd say that the elevator in the picture would fall into the "vertical square bin" type.

The pic you just posted seems like a much closer match than anything I've been able to find thus far. Where's it located?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

zen ~

The elevator in my last post is in Attica, Indiana. I'm still making some comparisons. Here's the link. Check it out while I check out the one you posted. Be sure to open the string of pics on the right.

Thanks.

Bob

Link: Old Grainery | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

PS ~

Initially I thought the elevator in my baseball photo was maybe 80 feet high. But the more I compare it in relation to the trees, the more I think it's no more than maybe 40 feet high. But the real problem is not knowing if it's part of the foreground building or if it's a seperate building in the distance. And if it is in the distance, how far away it might be? Its perplexing. But irregardless of anything else, its that little "side roof" (or whatever you want to call it) on the upper right side that really distinguishes it from others.

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

zen ~

Very interesting website. I'm learning a lot from it. Within the next day or two I am going to contact Kevin B. Coleman and see what he has to say about my photo.

Thanks again.

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Here's a reverse sketch of what the baseball photo grain elevator might look like if viewed from the opposite side. Compare it to the Attica, Indiana elevator. I'm not saying its exact. Just suggesting it's similar and may be a clue of the style to look for.

The big question is whether the building in the baseball photo is one building or two buildings?

 

[Ammonhotep]

I found your Attica, Indiana grain elevator's GPS coordinates:
40° 17' 46.00 N
87° 14' 56.00 W

Judging by the surroundings, if there were a baseball field near there circa 1910 it would have been to north-east, which appears to now be mostly residential. The only likely present-day prospect I see in the immediate vicinity is to the south-west. There are also 3 baseball fields along the same railroad line exactly 1 mile to the S-SW.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I found your Attica, Indiana grain elevator's GPS coordinates:
40° 17' 46.00 N
87° 14' 56.00 W

Judging by the surroundings, if there were a baseball field near there circa 1910 it would have been to north-east, which appears to now be mostly residential. The only likely present-day prospect I see in the immediate vicinity is to the south-west. There are also 3 baseball fields along the same railroad line exactly 1 mile to the S-SW.

Ammonhotep ~

Thanks. I looked at the coordinates on Google Earth and was able to find most of what you referred to. However, I'm curious to know ...

1. How you were able to determine where the elevator "used" to be considering it's gone* now?
2. What you are referring to as a "railroad line?" I don't see it.

According to the following website, which has five accompanying pictures similar to the one below, the Attica grain elevator was torn down (I believe) in 2008. Check it out.


* At least I think it's gone. Maybe they were just restoring (re-siding) it.

Thanks again.

Bob

Link: Photo #7981 - Exterior of Grain Elevator after Removal of Siding

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

The more I think about it the more I realize that without knowing whether the grain elevator in my photo is one building or two, it will be almost impossible to find and identify. If it's a single structure like the Attica elevator, then that's one thing. But if it's actually a tall, tower-like structure in the distance, then that's another thing altogether. I have examined my photo in every manner I can think of, but I'm still not sure. And until I/we are sure, we might end up chasing our tails until doomsday.

I will try my best to present the following in as coherent a manner as possible, but you may have to read through it and examine the photos more than once in order for it to make sense.

I could very well be wrong, but I am currently of the opinion that the pipe auger connects to the front of the elevator and not to the side of it. Examine the first photo closely and you should notice that the upper end of the auger disappears at the corner of the tower, with no clear indication that it connects to the side.

Now examine the second photo that I painted in various points of interest indicators ...

1. The bottom arrow suggest the building had a crawl space beneath it and was off the ground.

2. The upper arrow suggest the auger goes to the front of the tower and not the side.

3. I placed a straight, black line over the auger suggesting a most likely point of connection to the front of the tower.

4. I placed a blue circle at the approximate place where the "auger hole" is shown on the front of the Attica elevator picture. If my calculations are correct, the auger holes do not match up. The likely location on the baseball photo is higher up than the Attica location. (Providing that the hole on the Attica picture is in fact where the auger pipe entered the tower. Maybe it went in through the window and not the hole).

So many questions, and so few definite answers. But before taking another step, I highly suggest we determine (if possible) whether the baseball elevator is one structure or two? Without knowing that I think we're just dead in the water.

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

One structure or two?

It all comes down to this picture where the roof line and the tower meet!

Click to enlarge and examine closer.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

After careful examiniation and consideration of the evidence, I have arrived at the following inconclusive conclusion ...

If my calculations and angles are even close to being accurate, then I'd say they are "two seperate structures!" Which, for me, means that we have an entirely new ball game and that I intend to focus my future searches on a "single tower" with an upper "side roof" jutting out from the side.

But more than anything else, it's the "contrast" that leads me to believe they are two seperate structures. The foreground, white building appears to be a sharper image in contrast to the tower which appears to be slightly blurrier, not to mention the different color contrast. Why would the foreground building be a solid white color, but the tower a grayish color? I believe its highly possible that the tower has corrogated metal siding and the foreground building is simply painted white.

I never seriously considered all of this before, but wish now that I had.

 

[Ammonhotep]

Ammonhotep ~

Thanks. I looked at the coordinates on Google Earth and was able to find most of what you referred to. However, I'm curious to know ...

1. How you were able to determine where the elevator "used" to be considering it's gone* now?
2. What you are referring to as a "railroad line?" I don't see it.

According to the following website, which has five accompanying pictures similar to the one below, the Attica grain elevator was torn down (I believe) in 2008. Check it out.


* At least I think it's gone. Maybe they were just restoring (re-siding) it.

Thanks again.

Bob

Link: Photo #7981 - Exterior of Grain Elevator after Removal of Siding

Well, the grain elevator is clearly visible in Google Earth. If it was torn down, then the Google Earth images are older than that, which would surprise me.

The railroad tracks run from E-NE to S-SW directly to the west of the grain elevator in question. Directly to the east of the elevator is a green-roofed building, just like in the Flickr photos you linked to earlier.

I think you have a promising lead. I would first find out if there was ever a ball field in that vicinity. If not, then I'd find out who built the grain elevator in question, and when. The style and proportions are obviously very similar to the one you hope to identify.

Good luck, and I'll help where I can.

-Ammo

 

[Ammonhotep]

After careful examiniation and consideration of the evidence, I have arrived at the following inconclusive conclusion ...

If my calculations and angles are even close to being accurate, then I'd say they are "two seperate structures!" Which, for me, means that we have an entirely new ball game and that I intend to focus my future searches on a "single tower" with an upper "side roof" jutting out from the side.

But more than anything else, it's the "contrast" that leads me to believe they are two seperate structures. The foreground, white building appears to be a sharper image in contrast to the tower which appears to be slightly blurrier, not to mention the different color contrast. Why would the foreground building be a solid white color, but the tower a grayish color? I believe its highly possible that the tower has corrugated metal siding and the foreground building is simply painted white.

I never seriously considered all of this before, but wish now that I had.

I believe you should assume that it is one building. You have a prime example of such construction. I have also seen others of similar construction, and others that were "two-tone" examples in google images. Uniformity would not have been a high priority in construction at that time.

Stick with one theory until it plays itself out.

-Ammo

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Amm ~

I only have a minute for a guick reply, and just wanted to mention if you look in the lower left corner on Google Earth it gives the image date for Attica as 2005. As soon as I can I will look at everything again and get back to you.

Thanks.

Bob

 

[JasShapiro]

Bob, I agree, the building in the foreground is most likely separate. I believe the trees are closer to the photographer than the elevator and would suggest the elevator is closer to 80'. Also, if the trees are used as a gauge for the 40' estimate, the GE would be 10' wide, at best. After looking at a ton of pictures, it seems like the construct of GE in rows are of a very consistent nature compared to other GE in those same rows. Using the darker GE as a guide, note the building highlighted in green in my picture. Also, in blue, it appears that the lighter GE has a support post that blends with the left side of the GE. Also, I don't believe it is a two-tiered GE, yet reflects the other's construct. There may be another building behind it giving the appearance of it being connected (might be, in some way).
I feel it's doubtful that it has corrugated siding. Going back to the designs within each row being similar, the darker elevator would most likely be wooden as there's not much of a need to paint corrugated metal (and if they did, they would probably pick a lighter color due to heat absorption).
Last thing, it also seemed to me that this GE resembled those around the midwest, as well. Considering the rarer flat-pitched roof, I was thinking it might not be designed to carry a snow load, placing it a bit more south. However, I couldn't find any consistency with GE designs to support this.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

jas ~

Thanks. I'm taking notes and checking them twice. Something else to consider is what appears to be a power pole on the right side and (I believe) is in "front" of the other elevator. The standard height of today's power poles (at the cross arms) is (I believe) 35 feet. However, I'm not sure it is a power pole nor exactly where it's positioned. But whatever the case, it rises higher than the trees and higher than the elevator it's nearest to. (Maybe its a lightning rod).

From Wikipedia:

"The standard utility pole in the United States is about 40 ft (12 m) long and is buried about 6 ft (2 m) in the ground."

(I'm not sure regarding 1905 standards - some places didn't even have electric at the time and used steam power).

Bob