CIRCA 1900 FRAMED BASEBALL PICTURE

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

"Play Ball"

I went to a swap meet recently and purchased an old, framed baseball player photo that I paid $10.00 for. I have already done quite a bit of research on it that can best be summed up with the following which is how I came up with a date of circa 1900 ... (Also see pictures).

1. The seller said he found it in a box of other junk and didn't know anything about it.
2. The frame is made of tin ~ Appears Victorian ~ Hand painted floral ~ Fold-out standee on back.
3. The frame is oval and measures 3 1/2" x 2 1/2"
4. The photo is sepa colored (brownish) and was developed in an oval shape then cut to fit.

5. Regarding the uniform ...

Uniform Parts:
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Caps - 1888 - Spalding:
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Shoes - 1883 - Spalding: National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Uniform/Collar - Last Used 1906
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Uniform/Beltless - First Used circa 1910
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Earliest Numbering of Jerseys - 1907-09
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Baseball History - First Major Leagues 1871 thru 1875
History of baseball in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Grain Elevators: Grain Elevators -- History

Pictures, etc ...


1. Framed Photo.

2. Photo Only.

3. Frame and Back. (Glass Not Shown).

4. Cropped Photo. I cannot read the words on the grain elevator.

Shoes from above link ~ He appears to be wearing #1 ~ Solid black high top. Ad is from 1883 Spalding catalog.

Cap ~ Appears to be either #11 or #19 ~ Mulit-sectioned top part. Ad is from 1888 Spalding catalog. I can't tell in my photo if the player is wearing a short or a long bill cap.

Uniform Pants/Beltless ~ Player in my photo is wearing a belt. Belts were last used on uniforms around 1910. This picture is the earliest known example that shows a beltless player and is dated 1913. It is said that prior to 1913 most players wore belts until they were discouraged and possibly even banned because defensive players would sometimes grab hold of the belt to stop an advancing runner.


Footnotes:

1. The Major Leagues were first introduced around 1871 to 1875.
2. Uniform numbering was first introduced in Major Leagues around 1907-1909. (My player has no visible number on his jersey.
3. Uniform "Collars" were last used around 1906. My player's jersey appears to have a collar.

Bottom Line Questions ...

1. Can you think of anything I missed?
2. do you agree with the circa 1900 date?
3. Do you think the player is ... Hometown Team ~ Farm/Minor League ~ Major League?
4. Can you think of any way to identify the location?
5. And what about the grain elevetor? Any clues there? Midwest?

6. And most important of all, do you happen to recognize The Player?

Thanks in advance for your time and interest. I realize I am asking some tough questions that may be impossible to answer, but I thought it would be fun anyway because Baseball season is upon us and I know there are a lot of fans out there like myself.

Sodabottlebob

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

cw0909 ~

Thanks.

I'll take a look at everything over the weekend. And speaking of the weekend, here's a weekend clue which is based strictly on an educated guess I came up with recently and is not based on anything I know for certain or am witholding ...

Illinois ...

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I'll tell you more about this tomorrow ... Saturday

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Appearances can be deceiving!

First of all, I want to apologize for the trickery involved with my last post. As you will soon discover, I cropped and color tinted the grain elevator image in an attempt to suggest that it might be the one in question. The three primary reasons I did this are; (1) To give members a momentary thrill which would lead them into believing that the unsolvable had truly been solved. (2) To emphasize how general appearances can be deceiving and also to point out that even if I did stumble onto the right elevator, I probably wouldn't recognize anyway. (3) Because this is likely the very best I will ever come up with. I have spent so much time searching for and looking at pictures of grain elevators that I'm at the point of giving up entirely.

Even though I am 95% convinced that the following is not the elevator and location in question, I'm posting it anyway because it's the best I can come up with. I honestly don't know where to search that I haven't already searched. And if you're wondering whether this means I'm giving up or not, the answer is "yes, I'm giving up!" And in conjunction with this, I ask that everyone else give up as well. You've already helped more than could ever be expected, which I truly appreciate and thank each and everyone of you for. But there comes a time when ya just gotta call it quits and admit when you're stumped, especially involving something with so few tangible clues as have been presented here. As it is, I'm tickled pink just knowing that my photo dates to circa 1905. Which is a heck of a lot more I know about it now than when I started this thread two weeks ago.

So without anymore unecessary ramblings, here's the closest thing I could find based on how I personally envision the elevator in my photo to look like.

By the way, the first picture here is the same one I posted yesterday, and is nothing more that a cropped, altered, and color enhanced image of the one immediately below it. I achieved the image with the use of my photo gallery tools.

Blackstone, Illinois ... Located approximately 75 miles SW of Chicago and approximately 50 miles NE of Peoria, Illinois. Blackstone is/was an extremely small town of maybe 300 residents. The likelihood of there ever being a baseball team in Blackstone is slim. However, between 1894 and 1917 there was a minor league team in Peoria that did have a team called the "Distillers." (See links). Is the mystery player in my photo a "Peoria Distiller?" Probably not. But who knows, there is always the possibility that he "might" be.

But the real question is whether or not the Blackstone elevator and the elevator in my photo are one and the same? They have similarities, to be certain, but are they exact? Probably not. However, consider the following. Based on the height of the semi truck and trailer, which I estimate to be 12 feet high, that would allow for an approximate height of the elevator at 80 to 90 feet.

But just exactly how tall is the elevator in my photo? Is it 40 feet or 80 feet high? Personally I can find nothing in my photo to indicate a true scale, nor do I know whether the player is even on a baseball field. I don't see a worn down base line. Maybe he's just standing in a cow pasture in the backyard of his house. Let's assume for the moment that he is on a baseball field, is he behind second base, or is he somewhere in the outfield? And if in the outfield, what part of the outfield? And just how far away is the grain elevator?

As you can see, there are just too many variables and too many unanswered questions to make a truly accurate evaluation of everything even though they appear to be right there in front of our eyes and easy to solve. In a nut shell, I believe our eyes will continue to play tricks on us, and that the location will be almost impossible to identify no matter how hard we try. Thus, my reason for asking members not to rack your brains over this any longer and to just leave it "unsolvable."

Links:

Blackstone, Illinois: Blackstone, Illinois - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Goggle Earth: Google Earth

Peoria, Illinois: Peoria, Illinois - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Peoria Distillers: Peoria Distillers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Distillers Players: Category:Peoria Distillers players - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In conclusion, I want to thank everyone again for your time and interest with this crazy thread. I truly appreciate each and every contribution. And if you honestly think its solvable, then I encourage you to continue your research and post your findings here at anytime. But if you plan to bail out like I intend to do soon, I will completely understand that as well. It was a fun ride while it lasted.

Sincerely,

Bob

Pictures:

1. Cropped and color altered Blackstone, Illinois grain elevator.
2. Actual picture I made cropped image from.
3, 4, 5. Various camera angles of Blackstone elevator complex. Notice absence and presence of the various storage tanks (bins),
6. Google Earth image of Blackstone, Illinois. Red arrow indicates location of elevator complex.
7. Google Earth image (close up) of elevator complex. Red arrow indicates "front" of elevator.

* If there was ever a baseball field in Blackstone,, it was either "squeezed" in between the elevator and the town to the north or else in the open farm field to the south. (North is at the top of the Google Earth pictures).

Lastly:

The main reason I posted this long, and possibly un-necessary reply, is simply to point out that I honestly don't believe I would recognize the exact elevator even if I saw it! There are just too many variables and unanswerable questions.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

The Blackstone, Illinois elevator is approximately 80 feet high. How high is the one in my photograph? And are they one and the same elevator? But most importantly, how would you prove it if they were the same? Not to mention proving any one of a dozen other "possibles."


As for myself, I'm only confident about one thing. Which is that the upper portions of both elevators are "similar"

Bob




View attachment 639593

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Or is it one of these? ...

1. Blue Mound, Illinois.
2. Ridgeville, Illinois.
3. Unknown. Circa 1907.
4. Shawneetown, Illinois. Being moved in 1948.
5. My favorite one of all ... The mystery elevator(s).

Is this "The End" of this thread or just "The Beginning?"

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

1. Date ......... Circa 1905
2. Location ... Unknown
3. Player ...... Unknown
4. Current Estimated Value ... $20.00

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

PS ~

After checking my notes and making some quick calculations, I was able to determine that I have looked at approximately 2,500 different grain elevators during the course of this discussion, with the majority of the one's like those I just posted and think are similar, being located in Illinois.

 

[cw0909]

bob i cant see any st names on your map,here is a link to Peoria,and more towns
sanborn ill maps,maybe the ball field,is listed on the streets map
Peoria
Sanborn Maps of Illinois, 1867-1970 (CARLI) : Browse

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

cw0909 ~

Thanks. I'll look into it and see if I can find anything. And here's the Streator Minor League info I forgot to post earlier. Streator is located approximately 10 miles from Blackstone.

Illinois definitely has it's share of both Major and Minor League baseball history, but, unfortuniately, we may never know for certain if the elevator in my photo was located in Illinois or in some other state.

Streator, Illinois Minor League Baseball ...

Speedboys - 1912

Streator Boosters - 1913 thru 1915

Link: Streator, Illinois Minor League History - Baseball-Reference.com

 

[zendog64]

I hate throwing in the towel on a good mystery, but this has been a very interesting and educational thread. Learned a lot about grain elevators, which I never took the time to study before. But best of all, during my research for this thread I discovered that the town in which I live (Milton) had a minor league team back in 1897, called the Poets (what an intimidating team name, haha)! And that discovery led me to look at old maps of Milton, and on the very property on which this house sits used to be a professional horse racing track (it was part of the county fairgrounds....cool, huh?)

So even though we didn't solve this mystery, this thread has definitely expanded my knowledge, so it was worth the research.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

zenman ~

I hear ya about it being educational. But even with that said, and after everything I've learned, I doubt that I will ever be able to tell the difference between an 1890s baseball uniform and a 1920s uniform without someone's help. The best the Baseball Hall of Fame could do was to date it between 1900 and 1910. So I guess we're not the only one's scratching our heads over this.

That's interesting what you said about your house being on an old fairgrounds. You should detect it for old coins, etc. Who knows, you might even find a "lucky" horseshoe. Thanks again for all of your help. And should you ever stumble onto something that might shine some light on my old photo, please let us know. I need all the help I can get.

By the way, I took my photo into a coin shop yesterday and the owner took a look at it with his 10-power loupe. As I didn't want to influence his judgement, I asked if he could make out any of the words, but I made the request without first mentioning that I already knew the top word was "Grain." After examining it for a minute, he said, "I see what looks like the word 'rain'." But before I could open my mouth to say ... he interrupted me and said, "okay, I see it now, it's not 'rain' it's 'Grain." But other than that, the only other thing we could see and agree on, was that one of the letters in the second word is a y. There are unidentifiable letters in front of and behind the y, but what those letters are is impossible to say for certain. (I'm still shopping around for a loupe of my own, but the only place in the city that stocks them is downtown, which I dread going to. So I guess I will just have to order one online. But even that is like closing the barn door after the horse has already escaped, because I've already examined the photo with other people's loupes, and seriously doubt I will find anything new).

So there you have it. The letter of the day is ...

y ... with a whole bunch of question marks on either side of it!

Thanks again.

Bob

 

[DeerStalker]

The first professional baseball game was played in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Wayne Feeds started off in Fort Wayne, and so did Central Soya. Maybe there's an answer somewhere around Fort Wayne for you.

 

[zendog64]

In regards to post #285, I don't think any of those GEs are a match. In the mystery picture, the bottom level of the structure appears shorter, almost more "square" than rectangular. Since most of the GEs I've seen are more rectangular at the bottom, this might be another distinctive feature.

Maybe if we could narrow it down to, say, 10 possible grain elevators, perhaps you can send your picture to the historical societies in those counties and see if anyone can make a positive ID? I still think out of the GEs I've looked at, the Attica one is the closest match in regards to construction.

 

[zendog64]

Since the topic of size came up, here's a photo which might be helpful for comparison purposes. "The J. H. Hawes Grain Elevator is sixty feet tall and one of a very few wooden elevators still standing today." Since we know for a fact this GE is 60 ft tall, and since there's a man in the photo which demonstrates how large a typical man would be when standing next to the elevator, my "guesstimation" is that the GE in the mystery picture is approximately 80 feet tall.



J.H. Hawes Grain Elevator

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

zen ~

I concur. Approximately 80 is what I estimate it to be ... providing it isn't on a rise or low hill. Which it could be. And by 'it' I am referring to the main tower and not the foreground building. Please allow me to explain further by saying ...

I finally bought a loupe today and just spent the past hour examining the photo for details. I ended up buying a 30 power loupe because it provides the best detail I'm likely to get compared to what a 20 or even a 60 power produces. But what's weird about the 30 power, is it blurrs out the word 'GRAIN' but clairfies the other so called word. I say 'so called' because it turns out that it might be a number and not a word. The sketch below is "exactly" how it looks under a 30 power loupe. But please bare in mind that just because the loupe exposes certain details, it doesn't mean that everything is crystal clear, because they're not. Irregardless of the loupe, the imagery of the photo is still somewhat blurry on it's own and there is nothing that can be done to correct that. I will continue to examine the photo and post my findings as they present themselves. And its not easy. I'm am still learning how to see through the blur and try to make out details that easily escape the eye because everything is kind of smudged together. Crisp, sharp features are no existant. But here is what I have discovered so far and is information that can be relied on as being as accurate as is humanly possible based on the tools at hand.

1. The image below (whether word or number) is as precise as its going to get, and very close to exact.

2. The foreground building and the tower are "definitely" two seperate structures.

3. The auger pipe on the main tower "definitely" exits the tower on the opposite (back side) and not the left side.

4. The little section of upper roof (at the back of the player's cap) is "definitely" angled/slanted and is not perfectly horizonal.


5. The grass is shorter in the main 'field' than it is toward the back of the field where it is taller. But its impossible to determine whether the grass was mowed or grazed by cattle. There is no fence that I can see along the back side of the field.

6. But the most mysterous thing of all, that I can neither see clearly nor explain, are the "white dots" on the right center of the photo. The only thing I can say about them with any measure of certainty is that they are a "brilliant" white and are "uniformed." Someone said earlier they might be a section of covered bridge, which, at present, I can neither support or refute as I just don't know. But one thing is certain, they are "whiter" than anything else in the photo. I'm not certain, but I do not think the white dots are gaps between the tree trunks, but they might be gaps between "something." But what that something is I do not know.

If/when I am able to make out any more details, I will post them as time allows. In the meantime, see what you think of the mystery word/number (or whatever it is) which is located on the front of the foreground building.

Thanks. I'll be back.

Bob

Mystery Word/Number

What you see here is "exactly" what I see with the 30 power loupe.

 

[zendog64]

To me, it looks like the letters/numbers may be AYR. Ayrshire, Iowa?

From Wikipedia: "At one time it had two banks, two grocery stores, blacksmith shop, livery stable, creamery, hotel, at least two barber shops; Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist and Baptist churches; five gas stations, grain elevator, two cafes, a locker plant, a pharmacy, a lumber yard, two beer halls and several other businesses. It had both a Catholic and a public high school. The Catholic high school closed in 1947. The lower grades closed in 1968. The public school closed in the spring of 1982. The public school mascot was the Ayrshire Beavers."

 

[Santo10]

As a former tobacco baseball card collector and an avid baseball fan, I am intrigued by the photo.

I certainly would have paid the money for it....and I wouldn't give up on trying to figure it out.

Here is my opinion...(and that's all it is)

1. The player is warming up....
2. The player is likely an infielder
3. The player is the subject of the photo
4. The shot was taken using a tripod or some other device to keep the camera still. Despite the arm motion, the rest of the photograph is in focus...thus indicating little motion...photography with fast shutter speeds were not available.
5. Odds are that this is a famous player of some sort....now that could be major leaguer barnstorming, local boy returns home, or just best player on the minor league team.
6. Famous major league players that this might be....Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner, Johnny Evers......My first though was Cobb, but then I actually thought it looked more like Wagner....and then I thought of Evers. Odds are that it is none of them....but I could see a player doing a publicity appearance or barnstorming during the spring.....you ever watched Ronald Reagan in the movie about Grover Cleveland Alexander when the big leaguers came to town and Alex shut them down....wasn't uncommon back them. Also, probably wouldn't be unusual for a team to pick up a guy for a game. I will say...the ears look like Cobb.

You may never know who it is....but even if you don't its a great conversation piece and well worth the money you paid for it.

 

[Santo10]

Oh, one more point....if you want to know what might have been near the grain elevator in that certain town (whichever it was)....you need to get the USGS (US Geologoical Survey) Quadrangle (Topographic Map) for that area. Many were done originially in the early 1900s...and it might be possible to find out what was located there.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Santo10 ~

Thanks for stopping by and sharing your much appreciated suggestions. Every little bit helps. I'm not going to hold my breath for it being either Wagner or Cobb, but I agree with what you said in that anything is possible. At the present I'd be thrilled just to know the location. In fact, I made a decision today. From this point forward I am going to focus primarily on one thing. And that one thing is the roof. I realize that all of the other clues are important as well, but until I can find a roof that looks almost identical or close to the one pictured below, then I'm putting all of the other stuff on the back burner for the time being. I said earlier that I didn't think I would be able to recognize the elevator even if I saw it, and that may be true regarding the entire structure. But when it comes to the roof, which is my new best friend that I have studied with a fine tooth comb, I now think I'll be able to spot that dude a mile away. (I hope).

Thanks again ... I've added your observations and suggestions to my long list of notes.

Bob


Meet my new best friend(s) ...

The second pic has even been "Noise Reduced." (Whatever that means).

And despite how these images may appear on the surface, under the magnification of a 30 power loupe there is definitely a "four sided" roof encompassing the base of the headhouse.

Notice that the two black "lines" (one next to his cap and one on the opposite side) are as thick as the auger pipe, and not the "slim" edge of a shingle. I suspect those are actually the underside of the roof or eave, and shadowed.

 

[zendog64]

Just a radically wild and crazy thought. Is there any possibility that the picture may not be a photograph at all, but maybe a reproduction or a lithograph of a highly-detailed painting or drawing? I ask this because the texture of the paper itself doesn't seem like any I've ever seen on old photographs (there doesn't appear to be much gloss)....and that may explain a couple things: (1) the illegibility of the sign lettering (2) the "colored in" or "shaded in" portions of the grass (3) the uniform, which still looks more to me like an 1890s uniform despite being an early 1900s picture (4) the blurriness of the facial features, and (5) the unique structure of the grain elevator.

Just throwing it out there, because sometimes the dumbest explanation is the correct one. Could this be, say, a 1905 picture or lithograph of an 1898 painting? I don't necessarily believe this is the case, but that would be kinda funny if we've been wracking our brains over a "fictitious" player.