Colombia President- Gustavo Petro

[simon zacarias]

Thanx, yes interesting. Who are the owners of 160 tons of gold coins? San Jose? And the silver. And the emerald fleet 1605. my favourite. The Colombian government refused 2-3 times Supreme Court orders. Corrupt country, but better for the galleon. Now I think a government as left as here will never give it away, surley not to Spain. Spain is devil impersonation when it comes to human rights in the America’s. Behind I can promise if the SSA win in den haque a gains GOC we will attack them. Another 5 years court case.
My suggestion: get the gallons up, split it to the countries where it comes from , and call it a day. The Qhara Qhara with 20k people or so will be rich beyond. They paid in blood for it. My job as Tata Udo is simply. I hunt treasure hunters. Don’t touch the treasure. W Regards

 

[Colombiapictures]

"get the gallons up" sounds easy, but who should risk their money and time to do it? Are you going to pay for it?

 

[Red_desert]

Thanx, yes interesting. Who are the owners of 160 tons of gold coins? San Jose? And the silver. And the emerald fleet 1605. my favourite. The Colombian government refused 2-3 times Supreme Court orders. Corrupt country, but better for the galleon. Now I think a government as left as here will never give it away, surley not to Spain. Spain is devil impersonation when it comes to human rights in the America’s. Behind I can promise if the SSA win in den haque a gains GOC we will attack them. Another 5 years court case.
My suggestion: get the gallons up, split it to the countries where it comes from , and call it a day. The Qhara Qhara with 20k people or so will be rich beyond. They paid in blood for it. My job as Tata Udo is simply. I hunt treasure hunters. Don’t touch the treasure. W Regards

Columbia has assets, it will be more power to them to keep all hands off for a while.

 

[Red_desert]

Columbia has assets, it will be more power to them to keep all hands off for a while.

Movie rights included, attached to every galleon discovered and then declared archaeologically protected.

 

[simon zacarias]

Treasure bringing up to the surface is very profitable. It was never the question if someone wants to pay for it but how much you can keep to make it worthwhile spending. If the GoC brings up the San Jose, and only sells 10 % of the lot they can easily finance the 1605 fleet salvage as well.
Things are in motion behind the curtains. Reporting from Cartagena.

 

[Blue water Pilgrim]

Under international law, Spain will always retain ownership of the San José wreck itself because it was a Spanish naval warship, and warships enjoy sovereign immunity even centuries after they sink. At the same time, Colombia has full sovereign rights over its territorial waters, which means it controls access to the site, excavation, and how the wreck is protected and displayed as cultural heritage. Claims by the indigenous people in other Nation to the silver and gold, while morally and historically significant, are not legally enforceable under current international law. Neither the United Nations nor any international body can compel Spain or Colombia to transfer ownership or assets without their consent. Any redistribution would require voluntary agreement by both states. The question over the 1605 fleet can only be answered once it has been located, because legal rights depend on the same principles illustrated by the San José case.

Sea Search Armada (SSA) claims rights based on salvage and discovery law, not sovereignty or heritage. Here’s how that claim is supposed to work and why it is weak. SSA relied on this older “treasure salvage” model, which treated valuable wrecks as abandoned property. SSA’s claim largely fails under modern law. The San José was a Spanish warship, which means it was never legally abandoned and is protected by sovereign immunity, eliminating any salvage rights without Spain’s consent. In addition, Colombia’s courts ruled that historic shipwrecks in Colombian waters are part of the nation’s cultural patrimony, not commercial treasure.

No one can legally profit from the wreck as modern international law classifies historic shipwrecks and their cargo as protected cultural heritage rather than commercial property. This restriction applies to everyone, including Indigenous groups: although such communities may have strong historical and moral claims, the silver and gold are legally treated as heritage objects and cannot be sold or exploited for profit.

 

[simon zacarias]

Under international law, Spain will always retain ownership of the San José wreck itself because it was a Spanish naval warship, and warships enjoy sovereign immunity even centuries after they sink. At the same time, Colombia has full sovereign rights over its territorial waters, which means it controls access to the site, excavation, and how the wreck is protected and displayed as cultural heritage. Claims by the indigenous people in other Nation to the silver and gold, while morally and historically significant, are not legally enforceable under current international law. Neither the United Nations nor any international body can compel Spain or Colombia to transfer ownership or assets without their consent. Any redistribution would require voluntary agreement by both states. The question over the 1605 fleet can only be answered once it has been located, because legal rights depend on the same principles illustrated by the San José case.

Sea Search Armada (SSA) claims rights based on salvage and discovery law, not sovereignty or heritage. Here’s how that claim is supposed to work and why it is weak. SSA relied on this older “treasure salvage” model, which treated valuable wrecks as abandoned property. SSA’s claim largely fails under modern law. The San José was a Spanish warship, which means it was never legally abandoned and is protected by sovereign immunity, eliminating any salvage rights without Spain’s consent. In addition, Colombia’s courts ruled that historic shipwrecks in Colombian waters are part of the nation’s cultural patrimony, not commercial treasure.

No one can legally profit from the wreck as modern international law classifies historic shipwrecks and their cargo as protected cultural heritage rather than commercial property. This restriction applies to everyone, including Indigenous groups: although such communities may have strong historical and moral claims, the silver and gold are legally treated as heritage objects and cannot be sold or exploited for profit.

Agree , on most of it. It’s hard to imagine how a thief who lost his stolen stuff on the way home, gets the police to recover it.

Under international law, Spain will always retain ownership of the San José wreck itself because it was a Spanish naval warship, and warships enjoy sovereign immunity even centuries after they sink. At the same time, Colombia has full sovereign rights over its territorial waters, which means it controls access to the site, excavation, and how the wreck is protected and displayed as cultural heritage. Claims by the indigenous people in other Nation to the silver and gold, while morally and historically significant, are not legally enforceable under current international law. Neither the United Nations nor any international body can compel Spain or Colombia to transfer ownership or assets without their consent. Any redistribution would require voluntary agreement by both states. The question over the 1605 fleet can only be answered once it has been located, because legal rights depend on the same principles illustrated by the San José case.

Sea Search Armada (SSA) claims rights based on salvage and discovery law, not sovereignty or heritage. Here’s how that claim is supposed to work and why it is weak. SSA relied on this older “treasure salvage” model, which treated valuable wrecks as abandoned property. SSA’s claim largely fails under modern law. The San José was a Spanish warship, which means it was never legally abandoned and is protected by sovereign immunity, eliminating any salvage rights without Spain’s consent. In addition, Colombia’s courts ruled that historic shipwrecks in Colombian waters are part of the nation’s cultural patrimony, not commercial treasure.

No one can legally profit from the wreck as modern international law classifies historic shipwrecks and their cargo as protected cultural heritage rather than commercial property. This restriction applies to everyone, including Indigenous groups: although such communities may have strong historical and moral claims, the silver and gold are legally treated as heritage objects and cannot be sold or exploited for profit.

agreed to most. It’s nonsense to call the police to get your stolen stuff back while loosing it on the way home. Ridiculous. So Spain is out at least what’s lost in the way. They very much cashed in on Odyssey. So Spain is in the treasure hunting Buisiness. Because you simply get tons of silver without a blister. The value in roh material is so great, it’s worthwhile getting them out, 200 gallons in Colombia waters alone. 300 years of mining in the best part of the planet with slaves. Gold and silver . W emerald and pearl decoration.
When the king of Spain writes a degree ists law. 300 years ago more even so. To declare this now invalid would declare all of kings degrees invalid.
So the current mechanism in force w Spain ley the maritimo etc is not working. And the contraband was enormous. They stole from their own king too. So much for the truth. Here the window in Cartagena last night. Most likely the frame is in silver from potosi. Beautiful.

 

[simon zacarias]

Agree , on most of it. It’s hard to imagine how a thief who lost his stolen stuff on the way home, gets the police to recover it.

agreed to most. It’s nonsense to call the police to get your stolen stuff back while loosing it on the way home. Ridiculous. So Spain is out at least what’s lost in the way. They very much cashed in on Odyssey. So Spain is in the treasure hunting Buisiness. Because you simply get tons of silver without a blister. The value in roh material is so great, it’s worthwhile getting them out, 200 gallons in Colombia waters alone. 300 years of mining in the best part of the planet with slaves. Gold and silver . W emerald and pearl decoration.
When the king of Spain writes a degree ists law. 300 years ago more even so. To declare this now invalid would declare all of kings degrees invalid.
So the current mechanism in force w Spain ley the maritimo etc is not working. And the contraband was enormous. They stole from their own king too. So much for the truth. Here the window in Cartagena last night. Most likely the frame is in silver from potosi. Beautiful.

Agree , on most of it. It’s hard to imagine how a thief who lost his stolen stuff on the way home, gets the police to recover it.

agreed to most. It’s nonsense to call the police to get your stolen stuff back while loosing it on the way home. Ridiculous. So Spain is out at least what’s lost in the way. They very much cashed in on Odyssey. So Spain is in the treasure hunting Buisiness. Because you simply get tons of silver without a blister. The value in roh material is so great, it’s worthwhile getting them out, 200 gallons in Colombia waters alone. 300 years of mining in the best part of the planet with slaves. Gold and silver . W emerald and pearl decoration.
When the king of Spain writes a degree ists law. 300 years ago more even so. To declare this now invalid would declare all of kings degrees invalid.
So the current mechanism in force w Spain ley the maritimo etc is not working. And the contraband was enormous. They stole from their own king too. So much for the truth. Here the window in Cartagena last night. Most likely the frame is in silver from potosi. Beautiful.

 

[Physics guy]

They very much cashed in on Odyssey. So Spain is in the treasure hunting business.

My two-bits-worth* on who should get the San Jose treasure: anyone but Spain.

*Literally, two-eights of an eight-reale coin.

 

[unclemac]

I agree it is easy to point fingers at Spain for any number of atrocities during colonization. But I would also point the finger at all of us as well. For me anyway, the truly remarkable aspect is that we have reached a point where we condemn the excesses of the past while we ignore what we see with our own eyes today.

 

[simon zacarias]

I agree it is easy to point fingers at Spain for any number of atrocities during colonization. But I would also point the finger at all of us as well. For me anyway, the truly remarkable aspect is that we have reached a point where we condemn the excesses of the past while we ignore what we see with our own eyes today.

Indeed. Absolutely correct. Therefore it’s so important not to let Spain get its hand on the treasure. Wars and exploitation feeding on the policy of plunder. Which also creates poverty beyond. Spanish ley de maritimo claiming every ship/ warship owned by Spain is their property.
What about a German submarine found w gold and so on taken from the victims of the concentration camps. Does that belong to the German state since it was a warship?
Or how do we define a genocide? There is no statue of limitation when it comes to that.
It’s more complicated if we talk about tons of gold and not cultural heritage in a british museum.
Regards from Cartagena.

 

[Red_desert]

Indeed. Absolutely correct. Therefore it’s so important not to let Spain get its hand on the treasure. Wars and exploitation feeding on the policy of plunder. Which also creates poverty beyond. Spanish ley de maritimo claiming every ship/ warship owned by Spain is their property.
What about a German submarine found w gold and so on taken from the victims of the concentration camps. Does that belong to the German state since it was a warship?
Or how do we define a genocide? There is no statue of limitation when it comes to that.
It’s more complicated if we talk about tons of gold and not cultural heritage in a british museum.
Regards from Cartagena.

Right on...

 

[Red_desert]

Right on...

Just occured to me... we live in a social media age with all kinds of new AI image creating tools.


Treasure Lines
Indeed—
the truth is sharp as salt on iron,
and history keeps its grip.
Empires reach for treasure
with the same old hands:
wars fed by plunder,
poverty trailing behind like a torn flag.
Spain writes its ley de maritimo,
claiming every hull that ever bore its crest.
But what of a German submarine
sleeping under cold water,
its gold stolen from the murdered—
does a state inherit the spoils of its own crimes?
Where does ownership end
and atrocity begin?
Genocide has no clock,
no statute to soften its edges.
Gold weighs differently
when it is not culture in a museum
but the silent testimony of the dead.
And still the sea keeps its secrets,
rolling them gently toward the shore.
Regards from Cartagena.

 

[Red_desert]

Simple short but right to the point...

 

[Blue water Pilgrim]

Nazi-looted Jewish gold must be returned because it was stolen property taken without legal title, whereas colonial shipwreck silver was state property under the law of its time, slavery was also legal.
The silver in the shipwrecks was legally Spanish Crown property at the time of extraction and transport; while its production involved morally reprehensible forced labor, the miners never held legal title, and modern descendants therefore cannot inherit ownership of the cargo, though moral claims for reparations would remain a separate issue.

 

[BennyV]

Nazi-looted Jewish gold must be returned because it was stolen property taken without legal title, whereas colonial shipwreck silver was state property under the law of its time, slavery was also legal.
The silver in the shipwrecks was legally Spanish Crown property at the time of extraction and transport; while its production involved morally reprehensible forced labor, the miners never held legal title, and modern descendants therefore cannot inherit ownership of the cargo, though moral claims for reparations would remain a separate issue.

Sounds plausible. Only problem is this is going to turn into a pissing contest. My thought is no one will win and it will sit.

 

[Crow]

Nazi-looted Jewish gold must be returned because it was stolen property taken without legal title, whereas colonial shipwreck silver was state property under the law of its time, slavery was also legal.
The silver in the shipwrecks was legally Spanish Crown property at the time of extraction and transport; while its production involved morally reprehensible forced labor, the miners never held legal title, and modern descendants therefore cannot inherit ownership of the cargo, though moral claims for reparations would remain a separate issue.

I beg to differ there as not all silver exported back to Spain legally belongs to Spanish crown. Coins are in essence unidentifiable to their owners as they are transient currency.

For example if in shipping manifest in regard to silver Bars have ownership marks on the bar and the names of the owners of those bars that paid their taxes legitimately to crown. Regardless if the silver was mined by slave labor. While unethical it was legal in the day. The property technically belongs to descendants of those who originally shipped the bars. In some case there names can be found on the shipping manifests and their mark of owners relating to each bar of silver. The names can be traced through marriage banns and then traced to living descendants.

So do the descendants have a legal right over the crown and indigenous claims for any silver bar proven to have ancestral connections to descendants?

If interested parties want virtue signal it has to go both ways.

Where there's treasure greed is never far away.


Crow

 

[scaupus]

Spain looted the new world, worked millions to death as slaves under the most awful conditions. Spain should be paying the Americas restitution for a 1000 years. The bill for the USA would be much smaller, for N. American populations were much smaller, but still sizeable; so maybe 100 years of payments, a little of which, at least, has been made. But Spain has given back nothing. They do get credit for saving the last of the native population in Florida from the British-American slave raids, but they saved very few in the end, evacuating them to Cuba where they disappeared as a people.

 

[unclemac]

I think we are wrong on this one.... It wasn't "Spain" that was responsible, (so to speak)...but the independent operators of given license by the Spanish government. We don't typically blame Britain, (or any other European government) for the slave trade, we point fingers at the "slavers". So it is true for Spanish colonialism. The Spanish government levied the "quinto real"... or one fifth the value of what was mined, (or looted)... again... not mined by the Spanish government. Gold and silver not coined had tax stamps on them. Several coming up for auction next month at Stacks/Bowers. I have to agree with Crow here, the treasure onboard the galleons were not Spanish government property. The guns, yes, the cargo, no.

 

[BennyV]

All I’m going to say is that it simply does not pay to find one of these wrecks. You will get nothing but problems, both politically and personally. You’re better off letting it rot where it’s found.

Why give the lawyers more money?