Colombia President- Gustavo Petro

[enrada]

Dear President
Please tell Spain to go take a hike regarding any cargo from the San Jose. Spain needs to spend their time recovering all the mercury that they have polluted the ocean with, some of which I am sure has turned to methyl mercury and polluted the food chain. Their continued attempt to steal the gold and silver from South America is just obnoxious. You never signed the UNESCO L of the Sea and they have NO Bill of sale for the cargo. Stop even communicating with them.
J.D.

 

[Physics guy]

According to Wikipedia, Spain is a party to the UNCLOS, which they’re using to claim the San Jose is a war grave. Colombia is not a party. I don’t see Spain having any leverage in this dispute, so I don’t see Colombia giving in.

List of parties to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Some news today:

Coins, cannon recovered from legendary ship that sank 3 centuries ago with billions of dollars in treasure

Dubbed the "holy grail of shipwrecks," the ship is believed to hold 11 million gold and silver coins, emeralds and other precious cargo.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Tuga]

And Colombia has offered cooperation and participation status to Spain in the archeological studies of the wreck, they're not even being that complicated. And let's be fair, there's more south american ancient cultural patrimony in Europe and the US than in it's respective countries so I don't think Spain can really play the victim on this one.

 

[Red_desert]

Don't think Colombia will give in to Spain either

 

[Physics guy]

When the shoe is on the other foot and Spain is asked to return stolen property it’s a different story. In this case it’s a Pissarro painting looted by the Nazis in WW II. The painting is alleged to have been part of a quid pro quo deal offered by the U.S. State Dept: the Mercedes treasure recovered by Odyssey in exchange for the painting. Well, Spain got the treasure and they’re still keeping the painting.

Google Search

It’s still in the courts:

California rejoins fight over Nazi-looted painting held by Spanish museum

A Spanish museum is challenging California's new law designed to help a family seeking to reclaim a famous painting taken during World War II, leading the state attorney general to intervene.

www.latimes.com

 

[agflit]

I'd keep it simple if it wre me as El Presidente...

Finders keepers. No discourse.... no discourse politically or diplomatically. Basically...Sod off Spain.. end of discussion.

 

[Red_desert]

I'd keep it simple if it wre me as El Presidente...

Finders keepers. No discourse.... no discourse politically or diplomatically. Basically...Sod off Spain.. end of discussion.

Right on...

 

[Crow]

Unless Spain pays for restitution for looting the Americas with state sanctioned grave robbing. A study from 2019 estimated the total death toll from the colonization of all of the Americas was around 56 million by 1600, attributing this to diseases like smallpox, warfare, and societal collapse. Specific regional figures, such as the 5.25 million estimated for the Spanish conquest of New Granada (modern-day Colombia). Plus Pay restitution for the money made selling wolfram to the Nazis prolonging WW2 by 2 years costing 16 millions in lives. And finally pay their fair share of 42 years defense costs to Nato and partially the United States. Spain's claims of virtue signaling with the pretext of cultural Patrimony is hypocritical best and down right insulting.

The Spanish government has never one acknowledged or apologizes for the systematic state sponsored looting of graves in south America. You can see the smoking gun below. licenses being giving out to loot graves. Treasure-hunting Licenses A bureaucratic system built on claim-staking, excavation companies, and taxation. Grave-robbing Permits Medieval treasure-hunting policies which were later applied to indigenous American tombs.

So how can Spain in this context have the moral audacity to make any legal claim to any treasure from Americas? That is no different to the Nazis asking for their stolen loot back under the pretext of cultural Patrionmy.

Crow

 

[Tuga]

I'd keep it simple if it wre me as El Presidente...

Finders keepers. No discourse.... no discourse politically or diplomatically. Basically...Sod off Spain.. end of discussion.

This I disagree with, we live in societies that know the value of cultural patrimony and heritage and there should be cooperation in matters like this. I do support regulation and oversight on Historical patrimony and I do think Colombia is playing well by offering Spain space in the archeological survey. But the "hard" value of it is another story...

Not every single piece found on a wreck is of insane historical value as in this case Spain is trying to portray, specially with coins and bullion. And as others mention, there is plenty they should give back before making blanket demands.

 

[ARC]

Great thread.

 

[Physics guy]

Not every single piece found on a wreck is of insane historical value as in this case Spain is trying to portray, specially with coins and bullion.

Good point. Without the profit motive, most shipwrecks that have been discovered would still be undiscovered and eventually lost forever. The ocean isn’t a permanent storage vault, it’s more like a slow-motion shredder. Just one company, Odyssey, discovered over 300 wrecks, which I’m betting is more than the total found by archeologists.

 

[DizzyDigger]

I prefer a more simple approach to this...

"Dubbed the "holy grail of shipwrecks," the ship is believed to hold 11 million gold and silver coins, emeralds and other precious cargo from Spanish-controlled colonies, which could be worth billions of dollars if ever recovered."

If I understand this correctly, Spain sailed in and took control of Colombian colonies, then
took all their wealth (coins, jewelry, etc.) which they then loaded onto the San Jose for
transport back to Spain.

The English then came in and sank the San Jose in Colombian waters.

Far as I'm concerned, that stuff never belonged to Spain the first place. It was loot
they pillaged from Colombia and the Colombian people.

My verdict: Spain has no right to claim what wasn't theirs in the first place.

 

[BennyV]

I prefer a more simple approach to this...

"Dubbed the "holy grail of shipwrecks," the ship is believed to hold 11 million gold and silver coins, emeralds and other precious cargo from Spanish-controlled colonies, which could be worth billions of dollars if ever recovered."

If I understand this correctly, Spain sailed in and took control of Colombian colonies, then
took all their wealth (coins, jewelry, etc.) which they then loaded onto the San Jose for
transport back to Spain.

The English then came in and sank the San Jose in Colombian waters.

Far as I'm concerned, that stuff never belonged to Spain the first place. It was loot
they pillaged from Colombia and the Colombian people.

My verdict: Spain has no right to claim what wasn't theirs in the first place.

I’m sure the lawyers will figure it all out 😂

 

[agflit]

This I disagree with, we live in societies that know the value of cultural patrimony and heritage and there should be cooperation in matters like this. I do support regulation and oversight on Historical patrimony and I do think Colombia is playing well by offering Spain space in the archeological survey. But the "hard" value of it is another story...

Not every single piece found on a wreck is of insane historical value as in this case Spain is trying to portray, specially with coins and bullion. And as others mention, there is plenty they should give back before making blanket demands.

Tuga, I can understand your position, and appreciate the civility of the response...I just simply feel like Spain has proven itself to be completely and utterly untrustworthy, immoral, hypocritical and crimally selfish.
In a perfect world, yes sharing and working together for the benefit of saving history is a worthy and admirable goal.... but I simply don't think that that can ever happen based on how world views have changed over the last 50 years.
Politics is about power and control over money and people... and the kinds of money involved in what we do simply cannot be ignored by the selfish, criminally corrupt and morally bankrupt individuals who infest the political spectrum. The system is infected with greed and a level of avarice thats is unparalleled in human history.
These people (Governments) are bully's...and we the people are the runt's on the playground of the planet...
I learned early... the ONLY thing a bully understands is a belt right in the mouth.

 

[unclemac]

...get on with it already!!!! Man, it is just sitting there ready to go! I know it isn't true, but all the pix look like it is just a matter of going down and filling baskets full of treasure! I hope to live to see it.

 

[Tuga]

Tuga, I can understand your position, and appreciate the civility of the response...I just simply feel like Spain has proven itself to be completely and utterly untrustworthy, immoral, hypocritical and crimally selfish.
In a perfect world, yes sharing and working together for the benefit of saving history is a worthy and admirable goal.... but I simply don't think that that can ever happen based on how world views have changed over the last 50 years.
Politics is about power and control over money and people... and the kinds of money involved in what we do simply cannot be ignored by the selfish, criminally corrupt and morally bankrupt individuals who infest the political spectrum. The system is infected with greed and a level of avarice thats is unparalleled in human history.
These people (Governments) are bully's...and we the people are the runt's on the playground of the planet...
I learned early... the ONLY thing a bully understands is a belt right in the mouth.

Well that would allow for another discussion altogether , and interesting no doubt but I wont digress too much as I am a newbie here and don't wanna get started by being accused of stoking political flames haha. I share your concerns over abusive authority and defend self-organization and specially communitarian and horizontal values but also fear greed and moral bankrupcy contaminate not just rulers but also the ones ruled. Warm greetings to you.

 

[simon zacarias]

Dear President
Please tell Spain to go take a hike regarding any cargo from the San Jose. Spain needs to spend their time recovering all the mercury that they have polluted the ocean with, some of which I am sure has turned to methyl mercury and polluted the food chain. Their continued attempt to steal the gold and silver from South America is just obnoxious. You never signed the UNESCO L of the Sea and they have NO Bill of sale for the cargo. Stop even communicating with them.
J.D.

 

[simon zacarias]

About 2 years ago I was delegation to the Qhara Qhara during the official announcement to bring the galleon up. Minister of culture Sen. Correa

Dear President
Please tell Spain to go take a hike regarding any cargo from the San Jose. Spain needs to spend their time recovering all the mercury that they have polluted the ocean with, some of which I am sure has turned to methyl mercury and polluted the food chain. Their continued attempt to steal the gold and silver from South America is just obnoxious. You never signed the UNESCO L of the Sea and they have NO Bill of sale for the cargo. Stop even communicating with them.
J.D.

Dear President
Please tell Spain to go take a hike regarding any cargo from the San Jose. Spain needs to spend their time recovering all the mercury that they have polluted the ocean with, some of which I am sure has turned to methyl mercury and polluted the food chain. Their continued attempt to steal the gold and silver from South America is just obnoxious. You never signed the UNESCO L of the Sea and they have NO Bill of sale for the cargo. Stop even communicating with them.
J.D.

Well said.
Juan David Correa Plus me as delegate to the Qhara Qhara and Tata Samuel Flores signed a document which outlines the cooperation against a claim of Spain and the SSA regarding the San Jose and all other wrecks in Colombian waters. During this time we had the opportunity to speak w the spanish Ambassador. He offered Spains assistance for the salvage. We have 230 wrecks listed, including the paperwork from the archives, casa de Moneda etc. Lot of those docs where found recently within the vicinity of Potosi. In same cases the old docs are discovered in the municipal buildings dating back a long time. Around the major mines as Potosi there were plenty of “ privat “ mines. When the Spaniard arrived they found in the houses everything made of silver, spoons, door hinches , you name it. The great Inca empire was melded down and shipped out. The Qhara Q are the Incas so to say and do have a claim.
I am now in Cartagena again.

 

[simon zacarias]

About 2 years ago I was delegation to the Qhara Qhara during the official announcement to bring the galleon up. Minister of culture Sen. Correa


Well said.
Juan David Correa Plus me as delegate to the Qhara Qhara and Tata Samuel Flores signed a document which outlines the cooperation against a claim of Spain and the SSA regarding the San Jose and all other wrecks in Colombian waters. During this time we had the opportunity to speak w the spanish Ambassador. He offered Spains assistance for the salvage. We have 230 wrecks listed, including the paperwork from the archives, casa de Moneda etc. Lot of those docs where found recently within the vicinity of Potosi. In same cases the old docs are discovered in the municipal buildings dating back a long time. Around the major mines as Potosi there were plenty of “ privat “ mines. When the Spaniard arrived they found in the houses everything made of silver, spoons, door hinches , you name it. The great Inca empire was melded down and shipped out. The Qhara Q are the Incas so to say and do have a claim.
I am now in Cartagena again.

About 2 years ago I was delegation to the Qhara Qhara during the official announcement to bring the galleon up. Minister of culture Sen. Correa


Well said.
Juan David Correa Plus me as delegate to the Qhara Qhara and Tata Samuel Flores signed a document which outlines the cooperation against a claim of Spain and the SSA regarding the San Jose and all other wrecks in Colombian waters. During this time we had the opportunity to speak w the spanish Ambassador. He offered Spains assistance for the salvage. We have 230 wrecks listed, including the paperwork from the archives, casa de Moneda etc. Lot of those docs where found recently within the vicinity of Potosi. In same cases the old docs are discovered in the municipal buildings dating back a long time. Around the major mines as Potosi there were plenty of “ privat “ mines. When the Spaniard arrived they found in the houses everything made of silver, spoons, door hinches , you name it. The great Inca empire was melded down and shipped out. The Qhara Q are the Incas so to say and do have a claim.
I am now in Cartagena again.

 

[Red_desert]

About 2 years ago I was delegation to the Qhara Qhara during the official announcement to bring the galleon up. Minister of culture Sen. Correa


Well said.
Juan David Correa Plus me as delegate to the Qhara Qhara and Tata Samuel Flores signed a document which outlines the cooperation against a claim of Spain and the SSA regarding the San Jose and all other wrecks in Colombian waters. During this time we had the opportunity to speak w the spanish Ambassador. He offered Spains assistance for the salvage. We have 230 wrecks listed, including the paperwork from the archives, casa de Moneda etc. Lot of those docs where found recently within the vicinity of Potosi. In same cases the old docs are discovered in the municipal buildings dating back a long time. Around the major mines as Potosi there were plenty of “ privat “ mines. When the Spaniard arrived they found in the houses everything made of silver, spoons, door hinches , you name it. The great Inca empire was melded down and shipped out. The Qhara Q are the Incas so to say and do have a claim.
I am now in Cartagena again.

All very interesting