compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

[pygmy]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

simplely put --to be asked nicely to "please" do something is one thing ( would ypu please volunteer to do something)---but --- to be told you WILL ("volunteer" your time to do something) or esle suffer for not doing it --is a very differant matter.

To have such a glorified view of human nature ( in general ) is naive.

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

So, would you STILL be opposed if it was welfare folks "volunteering" public service? Keep in mind that they are required to do more "volunteering" than if you were paid minimum wage.

B

 

[ivan salis]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

to require those on welfare to do something "useful" to the public for the "public's"money they recieve --makes it a form of "workfare" similar to what was done by the govt via the CCC camps during the depression -- during those times the men got paid money to work in the camps doing public works projects (most of it was sent to their families -- since the basic needs of food and lodging were provided by the camps for the men --the men only got a small bit of their pay to spend upon themselves on adverage) that way their families could survive yet the men had to work hard for the money - there was no something for nothing back then. -- honestly to be frank -- no one can really "live" off a minimum wage job these days -- the real minimum wage aka as a "living wage" in some places should be based upon real cost of living -- if the govt insist folks work for that amount. as a form of public assistance "workfare"

 

[21stTNCav]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

simplely put --to be asked nicely to "please" do something is one thing ( would ypu please volunteer to do something)---but --- to be told you WILL ("volunteer" your time to do something) or esle suffer for not doing it --is a very differant matter.

To have such a glorified view of human nature ( in general ) is naive.

So, would you STILL be opposed if it was welfare folks "volunteering" public service? Keep in mind that they are required to do more "volunteering" than if you were paid minimum wage.

B

Pig, to have such a dim view of human nature is very pessimistic and ultimately fatalistic. I will "volunteer" to be naive and have a little hope for the altruistic nature of my fellow man.
Mrs O, I appreciate the quotes on "volunteering". It shows that you understand that what you speak of is not "volunteering". So why is it called thus As for labor for welfare(that is actually what you are speaking of) I think that is fine as long as the person we are speaking of is capable of work and could not obtain a job. Reward for doing a job is great. If what you are speaking of was actually volunteerism then you would not have to do the work to receive the welfare.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Good morning: Is earning your way in this world by helping youself make a living, considered forced labor? Yes it is, if you don't live under a system that
rewards non productive living as good and obligatory.

No work, no wheat for the winter, a la Aesop. Nature's way of forced labor

It was touched upon by suggesting that welfare recipients could not work for min pay ? Odd, but many, many Americans are doing just that.

Why should a welfare recipient be absolved from it This effectively eliminates any suggestion to go to work, since their basic needs are met in most cases, especially the illegal aliens.

Actually, if they do go to work, they are only making a small amount over sustainable / livable welfare because of certain 'deductions'. So they would be putting in 8 hr days to 'effectively' receive far under minimum pay for any work that they do.??

So where is there any incentive to go to work for only a few dollars more when they can have their full time to themselves by remaining on welfare.

Just think of the guaranteed vote and compliance at your beck and call by this system, which was the same in old Rome. They can be counted to vote in any politician or program that will increase or maintain their benefits.

Unfortunately many are in the drop out educational group and so have a min education which is required for an intelligent vote. by understanding the issue.

To have, and retain this huge pool of almost guaranteed votes, cannot be just accidental, or there would be incentives placed to get off of welfare.

HMMMM

Now for the plots revolving around in my itty bitty mind. Is this gentle proding via voluntary work in the schools part of the preconditioning of the next large voting group ?

Speaking of welfare recipients, on our vineyard in Northern Calif., we often had them bussed in from Vallejo by the state to work on the grape harvest. They always left perhaps 25 % of the grapes on the vines, since they were paid by the box. The larger grape clusters filled the boxes more quickly with min work.

This 25% can easily make or break a vineyard.

In addition, everything that wasn't locked or nailed down was stolen or broken.

This program was very quickly dropped. Guess why?

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. swr, the line forms on the right.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Ok - I understand what you defining and the separation between the two.

(it used to be, in Pennsylvania, if you received welfare, you had to work on the roads - either paving, snow removal - garbage pick-up - stuff like that - while you received welfare. The problem was, imo, is that, you worked with other people who were getting paid 4-6 times the amount that you were getting in welfare benefits. It didn't come NEAR legal minimum wage).

My dad was one of the bosses during the CCC years - he was a heavy-duty equipment operator and brought home over $200.00 per week, (which in THOSE years was mucho money), while the workers lived in transient housing and barely made enough for cigarettes. (at 15-20 cents a pack).
Meanwhile, my father got much more - his only albatross was having to travel to wherever they sent the crews - like building a dam in one state, and then going to the next state to build a road, etc. (again, gas was 15-20 cents per gallon).

If all those guys just got paid fair wages, they wouldn't have had to work for the CCC.


I just don't see any equivalent of THAT scenerio - to having to perform volunteer work to complete a college course.

B

 

[ivan salis]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

the vast bulk of the ccc workers money in most cases went to their families * since their basic living needs --food ,shelter clothing was met --they were allowed a very small amount for "personal" items --like smokes and other "luxury items" -- it allowed men who would have worked but couldn't find it to support their families ---the ideal behind "workfare" is to make folks work for the "public aid" money they get --where you got to work to get welfare --it cuts out the free loaders and the folks having work at minimum wage "public work" will honestly seek better paying jobs rather than ride the on public money "gravy" train -- since its only a "gravy train" if you do not have to work to get it.-- this teaches folks 5 very important lessons that many need to learn -- #1 no body owes you anything #2 you get nothing for nothing ,#3 you gotta earn your way thru life if your not disabled and #4 that being uneducated means your going to work hard for many long hours for low pay in most cases. #5 when times are tough you gotta do what you gotta do to get by.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Good morning Room: It has been brought up that the military has a unique system of volunteering. A correction, when you enter the military you agree to subjugate yourself to any orders from any superior, there is 'no' question of volunteering as such, even for suicidal missions in actuality.

It is a legal contract to do as your superiors say, regardless of it's insanity or stupidness.

The same applies to income taxes, directly and indirectly. In the days of yore, you agreed with the 'Pledge of Allegiance to the United States and to the Republic for which it stands. This covers that.

Side issue, I believe that we are about the only country that doesn't require a
pledge of allegiance to our country or respect to our flag from it's citizens or legal Immigrants.. WHY??

In schools, admittedly each and everyone has different schedules, or requirements to complete their course, or used to have, before gov't intervention via subsidies and required books controlled them. So yes, while you can shop around, your choices are severely limited and growing even less daily.

Of course, there is also an economic / social factor involved in your choice.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

HI BETH LUV: I can see that we will never be bored around the campfire at nights with ORO acting as a biased referee on your side heheheh, wonderful, Love it gal. We will get along just nicely, if 'you' make the coffee, not ORO, and lots of it - no unwashed egg shells though.


k--you posted -->

$200.00 per week,
~~~~~~~~~

In those days that was a HUGE amount. A Ford pickup could be had for $2 350. no wonder yer spoiled, and ORO has finished the job. hehehe
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.

You also posted -->

"I just don't see any equivalent of THAT scenario - to having to perform volunteer work to complete a college course".
~~~~~~~~~

Tell me, why is it suddenly necessary or good to deduct the time from your actual study period to do that? As it is, our scholastic rating is way way down in the world, even below many Banana Republics and third world Country's.

We actually need 'more' time in the actual classroom, not in the field horsing around. Even our prime boobooer, Ubuma is in agreement with this.

While we are at it, put the title requirements back up to the level of the rest of the world. Today an internet diploma mill has just as much prestige as many of our institutions. This is very, very sad.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[thrillathahunt]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Seems to me there is a lot dancing around the issue here. Let's cut to the chase. What if a new law was enacted that required everyone living in the United States of America to be a "mandatory volunteer" or face jail time. Hmmm?

 

[onfire]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Oh crappy,. so sorry about that spelling error but after collage besides fighting fires I ran a very profitable business and found out I really diden t have to spell I just hired a secretary sold it to the Russians and married the secretary.

 

[texan connection]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

COOL, another political forum i see everyones here.

 

[texan connection]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Well im for mandatory Military service for a few months of basic training. JUST like Switzerland.
Im not for debtors prisions

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Jose,


Never a dull moment!


Maybe it is the different outlooks in what secondary education is meant to be. Some people think it is strictly for the ABC type of learning. I think that is what regular school is for. The 3 r's. In Jr. High, and high school, they add another dimension - sportsmanship and competition - football, wrestling, hockey, debate club, future farmers of america, future nurses of america - etc.

When you apply for college, a part of your admission never comes just from courses and grades, they also ask you, and give you a large area to write about, all the things you have done BESIDES your courses. They ask about hobbies, extra-curricular activities, etc. Especially the better schools.

College is, and has been for many years - the "rounding out" of the education of our children, as adults entering a world that needs people who can think on their feet, and have had at least SOME experiences in other areas of the world and the community. It's why nurses-in-training work with patients long before they are licensed, it is why architects-in-training work with the real thing and their customers.

Students don't need gym, or music or art - but we promote it, even when they don't have an ounce of talent, or a dot of love for the subjects.
In college - you have to take minors - horseback riding, archery (two of mine), and the like. Not at all necessary, in reality, unless you are planning a career in horseback riding or shooting arrows in competition, but, minor courses are required to complete your credit year.

So it is with a minor course in volunteering. It's the hours (in school hours) that you get that is your pay.

B

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

HI Beth Luv: I have mixed emotions on College education. On one hand not enough time is spent on the major, on the other, not enough time is spent on a 'broad' education either. Sigh

However, I do keep a jaundiced eye on a required social service period unless it is directly connected to your major. One should be able to get a degree based upon their parroting / learned ability alone. Which?

Social service only allows the marginally knowledgeable ones to bring their points up a bit to compete with the ones that actually know the subject, but refuse this outside credit source, or to at least pass a gradually diminishing level of learning.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Now about that coffee? Your turn to get more firewood.

 

[21stTNCav]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Sorry Mrs O, but they did not have any such course. The College just twisted arms and said do it. No one enrolled for it or listed it as a minor. Some were able to fulill the requirement via required course work, but the rest could just pound sand if they did not like it. Not right, it is just wrong. It cannot be justified. Take it easy and good luck detecting!!

 

[Unicorn]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Here in the UK the pupils final year at School prior to going to 6th form college, (and incidentally 6th form college is not compulsary) is spent on the continuation of the three R's which are compulsary subjects. All other subjects that the pupil might think relevant to his/hers future career are chosen by the pupil. Of course prior to this final year at school all other subjects are taught. The subjects that the pupil chooses are then taught at a higher level in order to take what we call 0 level exams. If after passing these 0 level exams you carry on to college, although at this stage there are opportunities to re-take subjects you may have failed in after some further tuition. At 6th form college the pupils only concentrate on the subjects that he/she is good at, and has chosen to take to a higher standard. After this year at college the pupil takes an A level exam. If you pass these subjects at a reasonable standard ie: a.b.c. you can apply to a University for a place. You have to have at least 3 passes to get a University place even though you may only be going on to take 1 subject at University. Should a pupil want a place at somewhere like Oxford or Cambridge he/she has to have grade a. passes in A level subjects. I personally think this is a good thing, to take more than 1 subject at college, it gives the pupils a much greater rounding of other subjects in order to fit them for further studying at Universtiy.
To go to other Universties does not mean that the pupil will receive a lesser degree. Our Oxford and Cambridge is like your Yale or Harvard I would think. If a pupil is prepared to work hard he/she will gain as high a degree as if they had gone to the "Red brick Universities"
I do hope I have explained this well enough for you to understand me. It would be interesting to know if this system is applied in American schooling.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Ok, Jose - this should last through at least a few pots of coffee!!!!


B

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

OK Beth, you are conditionally accepted. Full accept. will be after I try the coffee. From the amount of firewod, I can see why Oro married you. Did you learn that in a volunteer course in College? snicker

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. what is our new camp dog's name?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

allo Unicorn luv: yep it is quite clear, I think

Don Jose de La Mancha