compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Nothing about life is static, our government is no exception. It swings form one side to the other as different peoples are voted into and out of power. It changes as the populace changes. What is wrong asking kids to pick up trash in exchange for providing education? Are there not lessons to be learned from volunteering? Get them off the computer, get them involved with the community, everyone benefits from that. The less involved they are with how society runs, the more disconnected they are, the more likely they will become herd animals with the "sky is falling" mentality. If they are isolated, they think only about thier wants and needs. If they help the neighbor, then they understand the neighbors wants and needs, and learn to fill both needs.
As long as the world continues to grow in population we're gonna step on each other's toes, we'd better figure out how to do that gently. It won't happen with closed minds.

Ivan I respect that you have an opinion, I just happen to differ with you on it. I don't believe requiring the kids to do something for the community they are going to be part of is a bad thing. I know it would have benefitted my son in both high school, and college, which he CHOSE to attend, and the three of us paid for. (no public funding here) And I don't see it stepping on any of my rights. Is it a slippery slope? If it is, it will be corrected by democracy. The scarier slope to me is the growing distrust and suspicion of people with different ideas.

repectfully, naturegirl
 

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Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Naturegirl, I think the thrust behind this discussion is not whether volunteering is good or bad, as we would all probably agree that volunteering is usually a good thing. However, when government or institutions of government(govt. schools) start requiring volunteerism, then we have a problem. History has taught us, and some of us have learned that encroaching governmental controls on free people is never a good thing, and that is what many are concerned with. And that is where the constitution comes into play, as we are NOT a democracy, but rather a constitutional republic. As a side note, public schools have for years wrongly taught the children that we are a democracy. Democracy is mob rule. If we were truly a "democracy", we would possibly still have slavery and none of the rights that women enjoy today, as whatever the majority wants it gets. At any rate, the constitution was designed to protect the citizenry from expanding and intrusive government into free people's lives. That intrusion is what should rightfully concern all of us.
If you think that volunteerism would have been a really good thing for your son, then you should have instilled that quality in him, rather than having the federal government force it upon all of us. The constitution is the tool that is in place to prevent us from going down slippery slopes, and prevents politicians with lofty ideas from stepping on all of our toes... Gpurs..
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

ok, lets go to the high school issue,

my town is the perfect example, 10th-12th graders, ( if there grades are good enough ), were offered jobs, to work for the town each spring. in order to help the town's public works dept. workers clean up trash and the winters debris along the roads and beaches. there were also other options to assist in other town deptartments, ( such as the town hall, parks and rec. etc. )

now they are... all forced to do it, "without pay ". , and if you do not compy with it you do not graduate.


now the town has gone so far as to... " farm out the free child labor ", to many local non-profit oganizations, and even to privately owned corporations, such as... the hospital, the after school daycare for K-6th grader's, and also several retirement homes and assisted care facilities. now mind you, that i agree that these private companies provide good and valuable services, but the fact remains that they are for profit corporations. using free child labor, ( against the childrens constitutional rights, and against their parents wishes ).


this is a perfect example of these unconstitutional "good intentions programs, gone wrong ", and it will only get worse. yes it is a very slippery slope, ( that we've already gone too far down ). the only way to stop it, is with a supreme court decision, but that this impossible to do, when they refuse to hear the case. check this website about it...

www.lc.org/index.cfm?PID=17875
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

me hearing the fact that trenton college of new jersey was go to do this -- on the television * spurred me to ask the question --- do you think it right to do this in general? and if so why --since in my veiw it clearly clashes with the 13th amendment ( no forced or involuntary "free" (meaning slave) labor). when asked --I stated that trenton college was the "case" that was in the news ( some folks do not what to look for themselves and refused to accept --that the answer was "trenton college" to their question)--now lobsterman in maine has said that it is also occuring at the high school level * ( which is even worse in my view)-- since high school as we all know MUST be attended by law --(unless one becomes a drop out , thus ruiniing ones employment chances and fiscal future )-- and of course --public high schools are PUBLICLY TAX PAYOR FUNDED.
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

huummm why should folks look up stuff for themselves ? easy so they can read and learn for themselves "first hand" -- I might pull out and post selected "bits and pieces" that by being read "out of content" might twist the true meaning -- thus I think it best for folks to learn the issue "first hand" for themselves so they can debate in amore informed way on the matter.

when asked "who's doing this?" I supplied the answer "trenton college" --rather than be side tracked -- I have tried to stick to the "issue" of my thread -- do you think its ok for schools to deny diploma's unless you comply with "compulsory volunteerism" hours in non related to your feild of study work --and if so why ?

I did not ask folks to comment on wither or not I had a degree or if I had degee envy ( side tracking the "issue"-- hijack of thread -- as well as a personal attack)
so please stay focused upon the "question" if you will.
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

because I was asked who was doing it * I said trenton -- the "issue" I was rasing was not who was doing it but rather--- is it right to do this , no matter who is doing it or when it started -- again please answer the "question" --- now that lobsterman from maine has informed us that it starting to take place at the "high school level" where he lives -- I am even more worried than before -- "forced volunteerism" that you must do to graduate from a publicly funded school that by law* you must attend (unless you become a drop out ruining your possible employment chances and fiscal future) -- its the govt telling you --you will work for free at the places we deem "worthy" --or be denied your diploma no matter how good your grades are.--with no diploma -you have no real future --so "comply" --give in or else -- "big brother" is your master 101 --brain washing at work. -- and that to me is wrong ,wrong,wrong.
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

SWR said:
lobsterman said:
ok, lets go to the high school issue,

my town is the perfect example, 10th-12th graders, ( if there grades are good enough ), were offered jobs, to work for the town each spring. in order to help the town's public works dept. workers clean up trash and the winters debris along the roads and beaches. there were also other options to assist in other town deptartments, ( such as the town hall, parks and rec. etc. )

now they are... all forced to do it, "without pay ". , and if you do not compy with it you do not graduate.


now the town has gone so far as to... " farm out the free child labor ", to many local non-profit oganizations, and even to privately owned corporations, such as... the hospital, the after school daycare for K-6th grader's, and also several retirement homes and assisted care facilities. now mind you, that i agree that these private companies provide good and valuable services, but the fact remains that they are for profit corporations. using free child labor, ( against the childrens constitutional rights, and against their parents wishes ).


this is a perfect example of these unconstitutional "good intentions programs, gone wrong ", and it will only get worse. yes it is a very slippery slope, ( that we've already gone too far down ). the only way to stop it, is with a supreme court decision, but that this impossible to do, when they refuse to hear the case. check this website about it...

www.lc.org/index.cfm?PID=17875
Click to expand...

From your own source (which is just another like-mined rant, by the way):

"However, in the case of Steirer v. Bethlehem Area School District**, a federal appeals court found that a Pennsylvania school district community service program was constitutional."

"However, the Court rejected in the argument that forced community service was a violation of the Thirteenth Amendment, stating that such service was not involuntary servitude, even though the students were forced to work without pay. The Supreme Court denied review of this case, which simply means they did not accept it for consideration. This does not mean the Supreme Court has expressed any view one way or another on this issue."

Although strongly opinionated, you haven't offered up any documentation that anyone's rights have been violated.
Click to expand...

I feel that i have adequately presented the facts, with legitimate sources quoted, and there is nothing opinionated about it, if you cannot accept the facts, that is your problem.

and for you to regard the posting of a well respected constitutional law attorney, at an accredited law school as simply a rant, then it shows me that you are simply trying to distort the facts, and using slanderous remarks in an attempt to discredit anyone who differs with your opinion.

SWR, here is a tip for you, even though we are on different sides of this issue, i feel that i should warn you that you are opening yourself up to a possible defamation of character and a libel lawsuit, when you make such opinionated / slanderous remarks about individuals or businesses. you should protect yourself from such lawsuits by prefacing those types of comments with such things as ... i feel, i think, or i have heard.

and apparently you willfully skipped over the fact that... yes, they are using "coerced child labor for private commercial interests".
the fact remains that it is illegal and unconstitutional, and the issue will be brought before the supreme court , and the method of distorting the facts, and discrediting the opposition tactics, that have been applied here by some folks, will not hold water in court.
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Good after noon my friends:
Nature gal, the Ultimate responsibility for teaching religion, Morals, and responsibility rests with the parents. Unfortunately, due to the recent bubble, many parents were working in two jobs etc., or were simply on welfare, and delegated that responsibility to a happily willing government.

Naturally this gave the long term planners just what they wanted, to form an easily malleable voting population. So they gradually took over all basic forms of training, including lowering the educational standards to where it was almost impossible to fail, eliminating religious morality, responsibility, and substituting a government one where it is ok if you didn't get caught, and if you were, obviously it was societies fault.

Now they have branched out to teach children early indoctrination of their place in a big gov't society

This public service program in public schools is merely an extension of this responsibility to the Gov't.. Just one more step among myriads of others..

Sigh No gov't has ever been known to relinquish power back to the people etc voluntarily.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

the logic used in the case you cite is to me "mind boggling" lobsterman -- I mean how can the court say -- "the kids are forced to work against their will without pay " and then say its not "involuntary servitude"? --when being forced to work for free against your will --is the very meaning of "involuntary servitude" (slavery) --I quite frankly am baffled by their "legal" thinking, since on its very face --it doesn't make common sense. -- its like saying left isn't left - when its very clear its left. --- orwellian type double speak 101 -- at its best.
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Good afternboon swr: you posted -->

You keep looping back to a program that started back in 1995.

What does a 14 year-old program have to do with "today's socialist training mind set" or "folks are being taught they owe the state" ??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You 'can't' be serious my friend ???

on Jose d eLa Mancha
"
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

you get my point --tap -- I don't care when it started or who started it or whos currently doing it --those are all "details" -- what I'm speaking about is the "big" issue in and of its self --is it right to make kids at go to public tax payor funded high schools (that they must attend by law *-- unless they become "drop outs" thus ruining their future ) to be required to work for free via "compulsory volunteerism" at projects and places deemed "worthy" by the local political hacks in order to get their diploma? -- its unpaid for "forced labor" -- govt exploation in my veiw, and teaches the kids their "place" at a earlier age --do as the govt says or else-- your "rights" mean nothing / do as your told or esle.

thus I strongly oppose it.
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do ::),

i still don't understand why people don't see that it's entirely unconstitutional and should be declared illegal, immoral, and corrupt. but then that would require them to admit that they were wrong, ( ya right, like that will ever happen ).

even as a layman i can tell you that it violates....

the preamble to the constitution
1st. ammend.
13th ammend.
the bill of rights
civil rights
natural rights of man

"forced to volunteer" think about it folks.

why are you not getting it ? do you have an alterior motive or agenda ? hhmmmm ?
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

some folks have to disagree (its just in their nature to be disagreeible with others)-- they must disagee no matter what you say so they can continue fussing and nit picking things to death -- they refuse to see or admit to simple logic --because then their "fun" ends , which is pitiful and sad , very very sad.
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Here we go... another "anti SWR" topic!

He has opinions... you have opinions, he asks questions, you get angry! :laughing7:

Ops, I should have said: "I feel..." so I dont' get sued.
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

SWR said:
lobsterman said:
SWR, here is a tip for you, even though we are on different sides of this issue, i feel that i should warn you that you are opening yourself up to a possible defamation of character and a libel lawsuit, when you make such opinionated / slanderous remarks about individuals or businesses. you should protect yourself from such lawsuits by prefacing those types of comments with such things as ... i feel, i think, or i have heard.
Click to expand...

LOL...get outta here!

If you think saying: (which is just another like-mined rant, by the way) is defamation of character, libel or slanderous....you are more paranoid than your posts let on! :wink:
Click to expand...

Lobsterman,
While I appreciate some of your input on this thread, any talk of "defamation of character" or "Libel lawsuits" comes across as just plain goofy. No need for righteous indignation. You know it can get a little rough here, so either take a few hits or walk away :dontknow:... Gpurs...
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

jim with all respect ---angry far from it -- I 'm not angry --- I just do not understand why when folks bring up valid points -- why he refuses to admit them -- any referances --"oh you're using the internet as a source" --yes because were on the net -- so it makes good sense to me to use a source that folks can check right away in front of them *--- proof , proof show me proof some one is doing this -- he says -- ok say I --- trenton college is doing it -- not good enough says he -- no matter what "proof " you offer its not "good enough" to meet his standards -- often he goes off topic and makes "personal" snide attacks" --- like in post #14-- when SWR said -- your "rant" sounds typical of others who are jelious of those have college degrees , and higher education in general -- that my freind calls into question both the level of my education and the nature of my personailty * -- a personal insult having nothing to do with the "subject matter" -- just implying that I have no degree and that I'm jelious of those that do-- after happily providing the info that he was dead 100% wrong --- I completed the nautical science program of charles county community college on november 7th, of 1980 with a 3.53 gpa (feel free to check on it) -- no I was wrong about that was offered , by him ----( a man who can't say I was wrong or I made a error ) --is a petty small man indeed .
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

paranoid, i'm not paranoid, i thought i was. but then i figured nawww i'm just being paranoid :tongue3:

i never threatend a law suit, i only mentioned the libel info as i courtesy, to let folks know not to use personal names or companies names in their ranting and ravings, as several years ago i had recieved threats of a libel suit by a company. they were spamming me, so i spread the word about them, ( i guess i should have done it a little more descretly ), it was then that i learned how to use the generality approach as a protection.

so excuse me for trying to look out for others and trying to prevent them from going thru the same BS that i had to.

now as for the discussion at hand, i believe we have provided more than enough valid points and cited legitimate references, so if you can't see whats right in front of you, then i can't help you to understand.

Ivan, you are correct in your convictions on this issue, so keep up the good fight, as for me i am growing tired of this online pissing match. i have stated the facts, and now i am going to try to stay out of it.
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

withdraw consent to be goverened

Gee, can you say "civil war" - just secede from being governed. ?????


If I get the gist of the WHY's some people think its wrong, then I still have the same questions -

Hey, I went to college - was on the deans list the entire time - and I had to take courses that had absolutely nothing to do with my college objectives - but - they were worth credits - credits I needed - it gave me 15 credits per full time semester, instead of the usual 12. (by golly, I didn't get paid money, either).


But, I still want to understand - following along the lines with Ivan and Lobsterman, none of our children should be forced to go to school - there are lots of kids who do not want to do math - or algebra - or phys ed - there's one that have nothing to do with the 3 r's. Or art class.

All of our kids should get their HS diploma and college degrees based on just whatever they feel like doing???? And, if you have kids - YOU are forcing them to volunteer to go to school, you could keep them home and teach them - legally.


The legal definition of slavery is to keep another human in servitude, against their wishes, to work at a profession that is monetarily advantageous to the slave holder. In fact - our laws, which the 13th amendment stopped, was actually pointed directly at "African Slaves" (their term), as it was considered to be not only a "right", but that they were merely property, that could be sold, etc, like your horse or your cows. (see writings of Jefferson Davis on the 13th amendment.)

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9E02E6DE1E30E633A25756C1A9649D94689FD7CF

That's a little different - no, that's a LOT different, then adding another course that you need to graduate a class. YOU can "opt out" of attending a school that has a curriculum that you do not agree with - slaves did not have that right and that's the reason we have the 13 amendment.


B
 

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

mrs O --if the kids are forced to work at places that turn a profiet --who use them as "free labor" rather than hiring workers to do the same task thus "pocket the money " that they would normally have to pay out to the workers -- are they not "profieting" form the kids "forced unpaid labor""? -- is this not a form of fiscal slavery -- the kids are forced via coersion --the threat of no diploma ( thus they will not be able to get a decent job or go to college) if they do not comply --thats a serious threat these days --to be trapped in the economic "lower class" minimum wage type jobs.-- it sends a message of "do as we (the govt) says , or else to todays youth -- never mind its against your rights --shut up and " go along to get along" or else.

amounts of credit hours required to graduate are one thing * and as is working in related type work for your degree -( in exchange for the "hands on" or practical experance in your feild -- ride alongs in law enforcement / or the medical feild ) -- I'm talking about --non related to degree work --that your "forced" to give to get your degree --which is like having to work at the "deans" favorite charity for say 30 hours --before you can get your diploma
 

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