Could solving the riddle of Khipu one day lead to Inca treasure?

[cactusjumper]

For a writing system to take hold, you must first have something to write on. Egyptians used papyrus for their paper, and sheepskin was also used in ancient times. So lets ask, did the Incas have anything to write on other than rocks and in the dirt? If not, how could writing have served the general population, or even elite groups, if there was nothing to carry the written language around on, or to transport messages across time and space? String might have been used to record numerical information simply because there was nothing else widely available to use. Anyone can twist some fibers into a string on which knots can be tied, but not everyone has the raw material or skill to make paper or parchment. And in very wet environments, you can't really use clay tablets with ease.

Uncle Matt,

The ancients also wrote on other animal skin's and bark that was covered with wax. Pictographs were a form of writing.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SO were The KIPURS,

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Smoked or just salted?

 

[Crow]

Hello Catus

I prefer mine smoked.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Hello Again ...

Perhaps the answer will be found half a world away in Poland?

The following story from the Krackow Post Poland if it is true could help solve or complicate more the Riddle of the Quipu?

The Legendary Inca Treasure of Poland’s Czorsztyn Castle



Was a senior politician of the Polish People’s Republic the heir to the Inca throne? More incredible still, did he discover the last testament of the Inca royal family, buried in a gloomy castle in the Tatra Mountains?
The mystery of the Niedzica quipu is no closer to being solved today than it was in the summer of 1946, when Polish newspapers were abuzz with the story of Andrzej Benesz, a young law student from Krakow, and his discovery of an ancient Peruvian artefact at Czorsztyn Castle, towering over the Dunajec river near Zakopane.


According to his own description of events, Benesz ascended the steps of the castle flanked by three border guards, a forestry worker, several friends from the Jagiellonian University and the village mayor. When they reached the top, near the main entrance gate to the courtyard, Benesz removed one of the stones and began digging. Soon enough, he found what he was looking for: a lead pipe with a golden cap at each end, inscribed with the words Dunajecz, Vigo, and Titicaca. Inside the pipe was a quipu: a bundle of mysterious knotted leather strings, the only method of data storage used by the Incas, undeciphered to this day.



It was said that whoever could unlock the message of the quipu would find the lost treasure of the Incas in Peru. But naturally, there was also said to be a curse that would befall anyone who might seek to possess it, including members of Benesz’s expedition. The quipu itself, in any case, is nowhere to be found. Benesz maintained that it was sent to Peru for further study, whereupon he dropped the matter and took up a fruitful career in politics. After his death, however, his wife claimed that he had hidden the priceless relic somewhere in the mountains.


If this story is indeed true, the question is: how did this quipu, the last testament of the Inca emperors, find its way to Poland? The answer is no less fantastical than the legends of lost treasures.
In the mid-18th century, a Hungarian aristocrat by the name of Sebastian de Berzewiczy was sent into exile for excessive dueling, and after travelling widely in Europe he boarded a ship at Cadiz and sailed for the New World. Finally settling in Peru, he was successful in business, but grew to scorn the brutal methods of the Spanish colonists and befriended the last remnants of the Indian elite. He married an Inca noblewoman who bore him a daughter, Umina. Umina in turn married the brother (or perhaps nephew) of Jose Gabriel Tupac Amaru III Condoranqui, the heir to the Inca throne and leader of a resistance movement against Spanish rule. Together, they had a son named Antonio.


In 1780, the resistance broke out into open revolt, and the Incas under the leadership of Tupac Amaru III waged a bloody battle against the Spaniards. It looked for some time as if history were on their side, but after several years of fighting, the Spanish regained the upper hand and their revenge was harsh. They exterminated all living members of the Inca aristocracy, starting with Jose Gabriel Condoranqui, repressing the Quechua language even more harshly than before in the hope of preventing any future uprisings.


Sebastian took Umina, her husband, and Antonio into hiding, and in 1786 they fled to Europe as the situation in Peru became untenable. The family stayed for a while in Venice, until Umina’s husband was murdered by Vatican agents, whereupon Sebastian, his daughter and his grandson took refuge at the Berzewiczy family holdings at Czorsztyn Castle. Once there, however, Umina received a stiletto to the heart, leaving the elderly Sebastian to care for Antonio alone.




Many years later, while searching for genealogical records in the library of Krakow’s Church of the Holy Cross, Andrzej Benesz found an act of adoption carelessly slipped between the pages of an old prayer book, dated June 21 (the Inca holiday of the sun god), 1797. It was the adoption document of Antonio Condoranqui-Berzewiczy, who was to be taken into the care of Wacław Benesz de Berzewiczy, and known thenceforth as Antoni Benesz – Andrzej was his great grandson.
Benesz caught the public’s attention with his excavations at Niedzica but that was not the end of his search. In his later years, while working as a representative to the Polish Sejm, he continued excavations at Czorsztyn Castle, going so far as to live there while searching for further clues. But the treasure of the Incas has never been found, the quipu remains missing, and the Inca empire shows no signs of reemerging. If you decide to look into the mystery yourself, beware the curse of the Incas! Andrzej Benesz himself died in a mysterious car accident in 1976, not long after beginning a new round of excavations.

Was It hoax a scam all gone wrong or perhaps some truth to story? The Quipu in question remains missing and the ability to read the Quipu is not fully understood any way. Perhaps history has lost an intriguing Document in the form of Quipu.

Crow

 

[Crow]

In digging a little deeper the story is at least intriguing.

Below is the family tree of Antoni Benesz.



Jose Gabriel Tupac Amaru III Condoranqui




Antoni Benesz



Record of birth Jose Gabriel Tupac Amaru III Condoranqui



Tupac Amaru III Condoranqui signiture




A question for conspiracy the theorists was there plot make sure there was non claimants for the throne of Peru?

Regardless by the time Peru had lost it own Inca monarch would seem irreverent in today's Peruvian Republic or would it been as destabilizing influence? And interest thought. And if this Quipu was the key to finding one of the greatest treasures in history where is it to today?

Crow

 

[Crow]

Jose Gabriel Tupac Amaru met a horrible death for his revolt against the Spanish.

May 18: 1781 Nine prisoners are led forth, their hands and feet shackled. Seven hang from the gallows. The Inca’s son and uncle have no tongues. The executioner takes Micaela up the scaffold, where, in the sight of her husband, her tongue is cut out and a metal collar with screws is tightened around her neck. Her slender neck defies the screws so the executioners tie ropes around her neck, and each pulls in a different direction, and with kicks in the stomach and breast they finally kill her. The general in charge accuses Jose Gabriel of being an accomplice to insurrection and treason. Jose Gabriel looks at the general and says. There are only two accomplices here, you and I. You in the repression and mistreatment of the people and I in their liberation.

They push Jose Gabriel into the middle of the square and the executioner cuts out his tongue. They tie four ropes to his hands and feet and fasten the ropes to the firths of four horses, a sight the city has never seen before. The horses cannot tear him apart, even though they tug at him for a long time so that he springs in the air like a spider. Finally the commander sends word to the executioner to cut off his head, and this done.

Emir Rodriquez Monegal, ed., Borzoi Anthology of Latin American Literature, 1:169-170







Was he and his surving heirs in possession of knowledge of one greatest alleged missing treasures in history?


Crow

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Shaddup ya ignorant bums ?? MY excuse is spilled fresh orange juice causes weird actions in a keyboard, sides that is spelled kippers cholla jumper.

sniff sniff. oh well join me for coffee

Don jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

As for the Quipus, unfortunately what I have come up is that-they are basically a mathematical representation of certain basic, wide reaching / meaning words, all of which had to be learned by long periods of the selected nobles or specialists in a form of school. In other words it was 'not' for the masses.

Having furn, but unfortunately now will have to learn Pre-spanish Peruvian language looking for an elusive form of a Rosetta Stone. Which means that I will fiinish Tayopa long before I finish on the Quipus --- if ever..

Don JOse d eLa Mancha

p.s. a simple analogy is the morse code can present a complete language and mathimatical system with only two symbols, a dot and adash.. The Incas had multiples of 10 sheesh.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Interesting stuff Crow.

I can recall watching a thrilling documentary on this legend some years ago. I believe it mentioned that when this group of people came back over from South America to Europe, they did have in their possession some gold/golden artefacts to smooth their passage. Rather than the quipu itself, the lady who married the resistance leader actually knew of a location in Peru, and tried to arrange an expedition to return to Peru in order to claim a treasure. It was suggested that is a possible reason she was murdered. I have no qualms in saying that all Inca resistance leaders had access to hidden treasures in times of need in order to purchase supplies and goods. This actually happened in Peru in the 19th century as well, and an English author actually witnessed some of the treasure which was still in the possession of a resistance widow.

 

[Crow]

Hello Interested Party in UK

You may be closer than you think to being on the right path.

Jose Gabriel Tupac Amaru III Condoranqui came from Tinta. The very place where there was a legend of a cave.

Please refer to my over post on a Inca cave near Tinta.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Crow mi esteemed friend, frankly if it is true, then probably only one Quipu described the hiding olace (s).. I beleive that it was handed down generation by generation verbally, and the original treasure Quipu was destroyed inavertently by the Spanish in their misplaced religious / political zeal.

Some one out ther still has the key, perhaps not accurately enough in itself any more, , stilll.

Still working on the quipus,, not your's and Joes' kipers.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Crow]

Hello Jose and IPIU

It is possible. But that's assuming there was only large Inca treasure Cache. I suspect there any many caches all over south America that was buried in haste on news of the death of the Inca emperor. Many perhaps not far from where they heard the news. So various caravans of treasure where ever they heartd the news diverted the treasure to various caches. either in lakes, caves, or buried in the ground. The belief of One Gigantic inca treasure cache to me has always been more of fantasy than reality. The Quipu that allegely came through Jose Gabriel Tupac Amaru III Condoranqui could either still in Poland or back in Peru? But that Quipu is for one alleged treasure cache?

Maybe there are other quipu's still surviving today giving directions top other Inca treasure caches? of course they could even be in museums awaiting some one smart enough to learn them and decipher their secrets. And of course there is native tradition that are orally pass down through the generations of various treasure caches.

Crow

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning Crow mi 'coffee' drinking buddy: I agree, there were probably many smaller amounts of metal etc., here an there. An example as to why they haven't turned up, may I referr you to the Yaquis.

They buried many treasures from looting and war trophys, In each case it was not the Tribe that owned them, but individual famlies. The Eldest was put in charge of it and sworn to never touch it except in an extreme emergency.

They were so thoroughly ingrained with this,that they couldn't, yet freely, and even eagerly, went after anothes'.

However often the Tribal governors called for them to retrieve them in the tribes interest as in their revolutions against the Mexican government..

Ok Crow I still have 60 years to decypher them to give you your Incan treasures.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hello Jose and IPIU

It is possible. But that's assuming there was only large Inca treasure Cache. I suspect there any many caches all over south America that was buried in haste on news of the death of the Inca emperor. Many perhaps not far from where they heard the news. So various caravans of treasure where ever they heartd the news diverted the treasure to various caches. either in lakes, caves, or buried in the ground. The belief of One Gigantic inca treasure cache to me has always been more of fantasy than reality. The Quipu that allegely came through Jose Gabriel Tupac Amaru III Condoranqui could either still in Poland or back in Peru? But that Quipu is for one alleged treasure cache?

Maybe there are other quipu's still surviving today giving directions top other Inca treasure caches? of course they could even be in museums awaiting some one smart enough to learn them and decipher their secrets. And of course there is native tradition that are orally pass down through the generations of various treasure caches.

Crow

Hi Crow

I am too of the opinion that many magnificent treasures and hoards remain. Some have been found quietly and others well documented, but the fact of the matter is South America has always been a treasure house that has changed the dynamics of world trade and economics.

Regarding quipus, this is something that I lifted from the Net:
"In 1994, the American cultural anthropologist Frank Salomon conducted a study in the Peruvian village of Tupicocha, where quipus are still an important part of the social life of the village.[33] As of 1994, this was the only village where quipus with a structure similar to pre-Columbian quipus were still used for official local government record-keeping and functions, although the villagers did not associate their quipus with Inca artifacts."

I believe that in all probability that they (quipus) were never really used for secret messages, but if there was treasures that needed safeguarding, they were done through verbal and oral traditions, as even when Atahualpa was being held captive by Pizarro and his boys, there was a full retinue of nobles attending to their master the Lord Sapa Inca, and all directives were passed through them to runners (chasquis). The high priests of Pachacamac refused to aid Atahualpa's ransom and he, through disgust at their oracles not panning out and ensuring his success, advised Pizarro to send conquistadors to ransack that particular temple. But the wily priests had been forewarned and managed to secrete the bulk of their precious treasure, but rumours abound it was found some decades, or even centuries after, some miles distant from the old temple site.

Question for you;

What would it take for you to make an expedition at this stage in order to locate a treasure in some lonely, distant place in South America??

 

[Crow]

Hello Interested Party in UK

Interesting question.



If I was to ever consider a possible project in South America. One would be wise to consider the following 10 Key factors.

1. Objectives of the project.

2. Funding of such project.

3. Viability of such project.

4. evaluation of the research of the project.

5. Planning of such a project.

6 Location of such project

7 legalities of such project.

8 Personnel included in such project

9 Logistics of project

10 Timing of such a project

They are all 10 key factors in having a successful expedition. Any number of them or any one of them done poorly can bring you undone.


For me at present even though it seems like I am enjoying a booze filled jaunt around the Pacific with Kanacki and crew on the " Love Tub" We are actually working behind the scenes. Its amazing what you can do with a lap top and a internet connection. Our current project is as per corporate signed non disclosure agreement in which forbids me disclosing any exact details of such project. However I can tell you over the next few months I am committed to that particular project in question. Thus being unable to offer my services and expertise as of present.

However this does not mean I am totally closed to such a proposal in the future providing the 10 key points are addressed to my satisfaction.

Crow

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hello Interested Party in UK

Interesting question.



If I was to ever consider a possible project in South America. One would be wise to consider the following 10 Key factors.

1. Objectives of the project.

2. Funding of such project.

3. Viability of such project.

4. evaluation of the research of the project.

5. Planning of such a project.

6 Location of such project

7 legalities of such project.

8 Personnel included in such project

9 Logistics of project

10 Timing of such a project

They are all 10 key factors in having a successful expedition. Any number of them or any one of them done poorly can bring you undone.


For me at present even though it seems like I am enjoying a booze filled jaunt around the Pacific with Kanacki and crew on the " Love Tub" We are actually working behind the scenes. Its amazing what you can do with a lap top and a internet connection. Our current project is as per corporate signed non disclosure agreement in which forbids me disclosing any exact details of such project. However I can tell you over the next few months I am committed to that particular project in question. Thus being unable to offer my services and expertise as of present.

However this does not mean I am totally closed to such a proposal in the future providing the 10 key points are addressed to my satisfaction.

Crow

Hello Crow

Great!!

I truly did not know that you where still 'active' - that is super good news.

The questions you ask show that you know exactly what you are doing, leave nothing to chance, plan and structure properly with clear aims and keep focus on what counts.

Niiiiiiiice.

By saying that you are "committed" over the next few months, this also indicates that you carry out all tasks professionally, practically and realistically.

I like.

Even in today's world of technology, 9 to 5 working comfort (of which I have been signed-up to for the last 15 years), health and safety in all that we do etc., there is still many adventures to be had. I have never even been close to South America - the States/Mexican border being my closest - but I realise that for some, not all, that huge swathe of the globe can still provide opportunity and avenues that have either been depleted and exhausted elsewhere or simply did not exist in the first place. Obviously experience, skills, knowledge and resources go along way. But energy, focus, resourcefulness and flexibility can probably take you that little bit further. Some people go t-hunting to forget, others to dream, yet more to get rich quick as they have not got the fortitude for long, stable hard-work. A small percentage do it in order to test a theory or confirm/deny something that they have come across and have researched and evidenced in-depth. Many fear being ridiculed for something that is now considered 'fanciful'. But if done properly, by professionals, with true prospects and definable goals, then there is no reason to suggest that one could prosper pretty well by such endeavours.

Just hypothesizing Crow, but would your thoughts and feelings be if you came across a cache from 300-400 years ago buried/left by goodness knows who, and knew that on discovery, the local authorities would seize it regardless of law and conscience and attempting to define rightful ownership?

After that, what if you found that said cache, included artefacts from a pre-Columbian civilization?

I am not trying to 'test' or elicit answers - merely debate how complexities and legalities can present themselves into the equation. Obviously you will have already come across such dilemmas and questions before no doubt, so it would be interesting to get your viewpoint.

IPUK

 

[Crow]

Hello IPIU

it is a very complex question as various factors need to be considered. And there is no simple answer. The first thing one would look at is The country in question, The stability of the government and nationalist political agenda of that country. Ultimately the landowner and the country itself in question has some form of rights over ownership over the finder. After all how would you feel some one going into your back yard and digging up 20 million dollars? Items of historical significance will fall under that countries patrimony and without doubt be sized by the state. If it is a corrupt state no doubt it will be on the black market quicker then they can kick you out of the country. One thing I can guarantee you with treasure evil and greed is never far away.



Judging by the description of the cache in the question you were inferring to was a Spanish colonial treasure mixed with pre Colombian artifacts.. So there is a possibility depending on size a claim from the Spanish government now broke and desperate to get their hands on any missed booty they lost after plundering South America for 400 odd years. Plus the local country in question will want there cut also. As well as the location landowners, And of course the lawyers will be rubbing there hands too all wanting a piece of the action. Legal Systems are designed not to administer law or Justice but the make money so the claimants will drag out proceeding for years until any profit found by the humble discoverer has been eaten away in legal fees.



The British trove laws are some of if not the best in the world. However most other countries have not followed that philosophy and have adopted the divine right of patrimony. Thus using this right as a tool to size anything considered of value. Unless you have pre arranged agreement in place and indemnity of prosecution back dated prior to the discovery and for any later legislative changes. Anyone wanting to engage in a deal with any state would be best part of a company which can enforce with more weight through corporations law., Than to just negotiate as an individual. Any State that Fails to accord with the agreement is in breach of their own corporations law. Leaving themselves open for prosecution and damages.


Or the other path to follow the discovery never happened and you have no idea of where those Russian, Chinese and Indian wealthy are obtaining such valuable antiquities. So you see there is many paths to take each one has almost insurmountable problems to climb over. Finding treasure is one thing getting to keep and profit from it is a whole another story.

Crow

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hello IPIU

it is a very complex question as various factors need to be considered. And there is no simple answer. The first thing one would look at is The country in question, The stability of the government and nationalist political agenda of that country. Ultimately the landowner and the country itself in question has some form of rights over ownership over the finder. After all how would you feel some one going into your back yard and digging up 20 million dollars? Items of historical significance will fall under that countries patrimony and without doubt be sized by the state. If it is a corrupt state no doubt it will be on the black market quicker then they can kick you out of the country. One thing I can guarantee you with treasure evil and greed is never far away.



Judging by the description of the cache in the question you were inferring to was a Spanish colonial treasure mixed with pre Colombian artifacts.. So there is a possibility depending on size a claim from the Spanish government now broke and desperate to get their hands on any missed booty they lost after plundering South America for 400 odd years. Plus the local country in question will want there cut also. As well as the location landowners, And of course the lawyers will be rubbing there hands too all wanting a piece of the action. Legal Systems are designed not to administer law or Justice but the make money so the claimants will drag out proceeding for years until any profit found by the humble discoverer has been eaten away in legal fees.



The British trove laws are some of if not the best in the world. However most other countries have not followed that philosophy and have adopted the divine right of patrimony. Thus using this right as a tool to size anything considered of value. Unless you have pre arranged agreement in place and indemnity of prosecution back dated prior to the discovery and for any later legislative changes. Anyone wanting to engage in a deal with any state would be best part of a company which can enforce with more weight through corporations law., Than to just negotiate as an individual. Any State that Fails to accord with the agreement is in breach of their own corporations law. Leaving themselves open for prosecution and damages.


Or the other path to follow the discovery never happened and you have no idea of where those Russian, Chinese and Indian wealthy are obtaining such valuable antiquities. So you see there is many paths to take each one has almost insurmountable problems to climb over. Finding treasure is one thing getting to keep and profit from it is a whole another story.

Crow

Hi Crow

Some good points and observations you've raised there.

Spain will contest any claim going - they have won a huge one against Odyssey some time back regarding a half a billion being raised from a galleon off the coast of the States. I have no knowledge or experience of South American bureaucracy, but imagine it is cumbersome and wary of 'treasure' claims. There has been stories of Central American diplomats using their status and privilege to smuggle artefacts looted from ancient tombs. Europe might make the most noise about protecting cultural heritages, but is one of the worst culprits for having a huge market for such items.

I am proud to say that the UK does, like you state, have a realistic and practical policy towards treasure troves. They give proper recompense to finders and without much ado. Explains why so much Roman, Saxon, Viking etc., antiquities and items have been saved for future generations.

The last thing anyone would want to do after finding a cache through hard work, perserverance, committing resources and efforts, is to become embroiled in a lengthy, frustrating and costly legal battle without end.

But your best point is that treasure will surely bring evil and greed into play sooner rather than later.

Many thanks for your valued reply.

IPUK

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Listening and drinking my coffee, join me ?


Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. side issue is "The proper finaning can surmount many of those problems."