Crowdsourcing to uncover the history that lies hidden beneath the waves.

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treasurediver

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Mar 13, 2005
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Galleonhunter is the archaeologist Robert Westrick. He is one of the best. Rob is willing to work with treasure hunters and most of us here know him. To have any kind of legitimacy with the archaeological community you must have an archeologist on board or they will consider us nothing more than looters.

I spent many many years running after the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.Many years making a living from selling the stuff I found on the bottom of the oceans.
It was always hard to sell that stuff.
A friend of mine sold the gold coins he found on a 1700's wreck to a dentist to make tooth fillings. How many times was I told my coins were fakes or the Chinese Porcelain was cheap modern copies.
This is how I learned the need to document all my finds, not just the finding, but also every possible information of how this artifact came to be on the bottom of the ocean, so that I could find it and claim it as my find.
This way I realized that the more information I had about an artifact, the more value it had. It is this information that helped selling the artifact.
Thus, the documenting and documents of and about the artifact are a PART OF THE MARKETING.

Mel Fisher was a marketing genius. He knew how to make a coin desirable. Pieces Of Eight were sold at US$ 50. And some treasure hunters were talking about “melt-down value of the coins”. Mel Fisher managed to bring the price up to US$ 1000. How did he do it?
He told the story of the “Santa Margarita” and the “Atocha” in every detail, to so many people through the news media, that lots of people were fighting to get a piece of it.
Some people were saying that he inflated the value out of proportions, but he could show through sales receipts and sales catalogs, that similar coins, gold bars and artifacts had been sold at similar prices as he did.
These were the heydays.
But the times change.
A genius like Mel Fisher knew how to change with the times. He realized that when you sell an artifact, gold chalice or gold chain, you sell it once and it is gone. But when this artifact was sitting in his treasure exhibit, it became a palpable evidence that his stories were true.People paid and are still paying to see and hear the story of the Atocha and Margarita.

People also pay to see the story of the slave ship “Henrietta Marie” and feel shivers when they see the iron shackles that had been used to shackle the slaves during the long trip across the ocean. Without the story, these shackles would only be rusty junks of iron. It is the story that gives them value.

When we talk about archaeology and history, we mean the story of our shipwreck. When we find an encrusted cutlass that is barely recognizable as such, it can become very valuable if we can tie it in with a famous pirate, because we can prove this was the pirate's ship and we can show and tell the whole story of his capers and how he tortured the sailors of the ships he captured for them to tell where the gold was kept.

People like pirate stories. People like people stories. Is this what they call“the human angle”?

The archaeologist helps us put together the whole story. He is experienced and trained to recognize each artifact and to fit it in to it's precise place in the shipwreck story.

We can sell the story a million times and more. An artifact we can sell only once.

Recently, Spain received the treasure of the “Mercedes” that Odyssey claimed to have a value of US$ 500,000,000. Odyssey used Mel Fishers marketing values.
In Spain, they discarded a large part of the coins as damaged and valued the rest of the coins practically at “melt-down value”. The resulting value of the treasure is not even enough to pay Spain's cost, never mind the cost of search and recovery that Odyssey had.

Just plain bad marketing.
 

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Vox veritas

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Aug 2, 2008
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I spent many many years running after the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.Many years making a living from selling the stuff I found on the bottom of the oceans.
It was always hard to sell that stuff.
A friend of mine sold the gold coins he found on a 1700's wreck to a dentist to make tooth fillings. How many times was I told my coins were fakes or the Chinese Porcelain was cheap modern copies.
This is how I learned the need to document all my finds, not just the finding, but also every possible information of how this artifact came to be on the bottom of the ocean, so that I could find it and claim it as my find.
This way I realized that the more information I had about an artifact, the more value it had. It is this information that helped selling the artifact.
Thus, the documenting and documents of and about the artifact are a PART OF THE MARKETING.

Mel Fisher was a marketing genius. He knew how to make a coin desirable. Pieces Of Eight were sold at US$ 50. And some treasure hunters were talking about “melt-down value of the coins”. Mel Fisher managed to bring the price up to US$ 1000. How did he do it?
He told the story of the “Santa Margarita” and the “Atocha” in every detail, to so many people through the news media, that lots of people were fighting to get a piece of it.
Some people were saying that he inflated the value out of proportions, but he could show through sales receipts and sales catalogs, that similar coins, gold bars and artifacts had been sold at similar prices as he did.
These were the heydays.
But the times change.
A genius like Mel Fisher knew how to change with the times. He realized that when you sell an artifact, gold chalice or gold chain, you sell it once and it is gone. But when this artifact was sitting in his treasure exhibit, it became a palpable evidence that his stories were true.People paid and are still paying to see and hear the story of the Atocha and Margarita.

People also pay to see the story of the slave ship “Henrietta Marie” and feel shivers when they see the iron shackles that had been used to shackle the slaves during the long trip across the ocean. Without the story, these shackles would only be rusty junks of iron. It is the story that gives them value.

When we talk about archaeology and history, we mean the story of our shipwreck. When we find an encrusted cutlass that is barely recognizable as such, it can become very valuable if we can tie it in with a famous pirate, because we can prove this was the pirate's ship and we can show and tell the whole story of his capers and how he tortured the sailors of the ships he captured for them to tell where the gold was kept.

People like pirate stories. People like people stories. Is this what they call“the human angle”?

The archaeologist helps us put together the whole story. He is experienced and trained to recognize each artifact and to fit it in to it's precise place in the shipwreck story.

We can sell the story a million times and more. An artifact we can sell only once.

Recently, Spain received the treasure of the “Mercedes” that Odyssey claimed to have a value of US$ 500,000,000. Odyssey used Mel Fishers marketing values.
In Spain, they discarded a large part of the coins as damaged and valued the rest of the coins practically at “melt-down value”. The resulting value of the treasure is not even enough to pay Spain's cost, never mind the cost of search and recovery that Odyssey had.

Just plain bad marketing.

"Baptize" and have details of the recovery of the shipwreck (historical information) is important in marketing. In 2003 "I was baptized" the "bell" of Santa Maria of Columbus. Price $ 1 million. Now worth $ 40 million:

Columbus' bell returned to Spanish auctioneers - Technology & science - Science | NBC News
 

Darren in NC

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ARRG was our little organization that formed after a joint excursion put on for TNet posters back in 2006 (sheesh! this is the ninth year since). We were so caught up in treasure fever that we decided to become contractors for the 1715 fleet. Great guys. Great experience. Definitely good times. Some pitched in money, some pitched in time and work...we all had fun. We even had a TV trailer made pitched a show to a few networks.

We had the boat. We had the equipment. We had the experience. Problem? It didn't work well for long. 2 guys lived in NC. 1 in SC. Several scattered all over FL, but not close to the treasure coast. Money isn't forever, and schedules didn't permit all the experience to come together simultaneously. If it's going to work, there are non-negotiables:

1) Someone in charge - humble and strong, but not egotistical. Everyone has input, but the leader can make the call at the end of the day.
2) An experienced team who will work well together. Can't play nice? Leave. Experience is based on the recovery needs of the wreck in question.
3) Appropriate funding. Can be self-funded (not likely, but possible), or investors such as family, friends. Get a venture-capitalist type investor as a last resort. If it's a publicly traded company wanting to invest, run like hell.

There are details in the above that is already written in a few good books, but I recommend highly that the team live near the wreck area (or be willing to move there). Art McKee, Kip Wagner, Mel Fisher, Bob Weller and all the greats lived where they were looking. Putting together a random and scattered group of people (no matter how experienced and great they are as people) is setting the project up for failure.

I have no desire to rain on any parade here, but unless there is a considerable amount of money brought to the table, a Burt Webber project (where an experienced team travels to search and recover a wreck) is highly unlikely. If that route is the route chosen, I can only recommend this - divide the project up in stages. Stop talking about recovery efforts if no wreck has been found. No money is needed for recovery. The only money needed is for reconnaissance. Choose a very select few to share the info with. Have them go look for the wreck or evidence thereof. If found, great. Start your second stage of the project and raise funds for that, which is much easier since you've already found location and evidence.

I genuinely hope all works out as you hope,
Darren
 

Salvor6

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Feb 5, 2005
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Very wise words Darren and the best advice I have heard. Treasurediver it sounds like you are trying to form a treasure hunting company through this forum. Good luck!
 

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treasurediver

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Mar 13, 2005
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Very wise words Darren and the best advice I have heard. Treasurediver it sounds like you are trying to form a treasure hunting company through this forum. Good luck!

Absolutely not. I will not be part of any treasure hunting company. Treasure hunting is dead, extinct like the dinosaurs. Just read what happened in Panama. Face the reality.
The shipwrecks are till there though. Lots of them. Many are very valuable.
What I want, is to see if joining together all our brain power, we can come up with a solution to the problem. I say we, meaning all who have some knowledge on the subject. We who have some pioneering spirit left. We who have a passion for shipwrecks, the oceans and history.
Ok, I will have to do it from the armchair and only sprinkle a few grains of wisdom into the stew from time to time.
But I sure would like to see it happening.
It is a funny thing with old age. In the spirit one can still be young, but the body feels crumbly. I can close my eyes and see the gold in my hands and feel it. See the glitter of the gold coin in the sand of 40 years ago, as if it happened just now. But I cant remember what I did yesterday.

My memory is still excellent, I just can't remember where I left it.
 

Jolly Mon

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Sep 3, 2012
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Here is my opinion: Don't "crowdsource". Stay as small as possible. Make your recon boat trailerable and unobtrusive. Avoid attention like the plague. Stick to areas where the overburden is not 50 feet thick, if possible. Treacherous areas with bottoms marked as "hrd" or "rcky" are almost certain to hold shipwreck remains. Old "coast pilot" books will practically tell you where to go. Couple this with research and you are bound to find a souvenier or two. If you get lucky, you just might stumble into something you can really make pay. Until then, keep your lips sealed and have fun.
 

Darren in NC

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Here is my opinion: Don't "crowdsource". Stay as small as possible. Make your recon boat trailerable and unobtrusive. Avoid attention like the plague. Stick to areas where the overburden is not 50 feet thick, if possible. Treacherous areas with bottoms marked as "hrd" or "rcky" are almost certain to hold shipwreck remains. Old "coast pilot" books will practically tell you where to go. Couple this with research and you are bound to find a souvenier or two. If you get lucky, you just might stumble into something you can really make pay. Until then, keep your lips sealed and have fun.

Spot on, as usual Jolly Mon.

If treasure hunting is dead.
What is the point of this thread then?

I thought the whole point was to put a team together to go after a treasure wreck?

Ed, I think he means land hunting vs shipwreck hunting. I used to distinguish it, too. At the end of the day, it's all treasure hunting.

Treasurediver, you're one of my favorite people I've spoken to over the years. I love your ambition in this. I hate when people squash other's dreams with logic. But alas, enthusiasm must be met with feasibility. I know what you mean about sharing info. I've done it, and saw some great info get wasted. I do hope you can find a few you can trust, and see something become of it. All the best to you.
 

Salvor6

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"Ed, I think he means land hunting vs shipwreck hunting."


Oh, I didn't know he meant "the history that lies hidden beneath the waves" of sand.
 

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treasurediver

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Mar 13, 2005
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Help, I need a translator. We are speaking a totally different language. I am talking about business. You guys are talking about buying a lottery ticket.
Yes, I know the feeling when you win the lottery. It is extremely addictive. You felt it once and you are hooked. I felt it a hundred times. Still miss it. But I never bought a lottery ticket. The odds are ridiculous. I don't gamble the roulette either, you know the odds are in favor of the house. I want to odds all on my side.
That is the difference of making a business out of shipwrecks and treasure hunting for shipwrecks.

There was a time when the odds were in my favor with treasure hunting for shipwrecks. I admit that I was a treasure hunter, useless to deny it because I left too many traces behind.
But things changed. The world changed. The problems are different now.
There are still many valuable shipwrecks there on the bottom of the ocean. I know how to find them, and to develop them, but I can not go there myself to do it.
So I retired.
But I am still hooked on that feeling. The feeling of having won the lottery. Beware of that addiction.
So when a business man asks me to give him advice of how to make a profitable business out of the shipwrecks, I can't refuse.
Because if I help him being successful, it will feel to me like having won the lottery once more.
If he looses his money because I advised him badly, I will feel like a looser. It is a very bad feeling.

So my advice to the business man is: get the right team together, your money is worthless if you do not have the right people. You need people who have the knowledge and experience. "Where do I find them?" he says.

The other possibility is to train people. I know of a lot of shipwreck sites where I could train divers for their work. But, again, how do I do it when I can not go out there myself?
The diving is only a very, very small part of the whole shipwreck business. SHIPWRECK BUSINESS, BUSINESS. This business also needs many more capable people who do not necessarily need to know how to dive.
 

old man

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Darren, I am directing this post at you. Because I respect you and value your opinion and friendship. That is why I deleted almost all of my posts on this thread.
I got a PM from someone that I consider one of the most experienced treasure hunters and posters on this forum.
He said, " For any treasure hunt to succeed you need to start with at least two things. A Target and Research." ( He is lurking and following this thread. So far he isn't impressed with what he reads. )
I will add one more thing to his list. You need to send a team to recon the site to see if it is a viable operation and to make sure the wreck hasn't been salvaged already.

If your friend wants to do more then have an academic exercise. I would advise him to pick a team and see if the wreck they choose is a viable wreck. ie... The cargo is more valuable then the cost of salvage. Research will tell you what cargo is on board. Then get a team to recon the site.

In my opinion. There is no need to put a Business Plan in place first. Here's why. If the wreck isn't there or if its been salvaged? A Business Plan sure as heck isn't going to help you. My 2 cents and I will bow out.
 

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Darren in NC

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No argument, Ed. Well said. I would add to take "treasure" wrecks offers off the forum, and get a bunch of guys here to go have fun with a "history" wreck. Of course, they'e all history wrecks, but once treasure aboard is mentioned, people go crazy. But seeing a group of guys from here dive together and take photos on a history wreck would be fun to watch.
 

old man

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No argument, Ed. Well said. I would add to take "treasure" wrecks offers off the forum, and get a bunch of guys here to go have fun with a "history" wreck. Of course, they'e all history wrecks, but once treasure aboard is mentioned, people go crazy. But seeing a group of guys from here dive together and take photos on a history wreck would be fun to watch.
Darren that would be a good idea. A diving vacation for a few days on a 1733 wreck for example. For a dive of that type, you would not need a business plan.
Anyway I wish these guys luck.
 

SADS 669

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I will gladly put together a team for the deep wreck mentioned but I need to
A) know where it is Within a few mikes and
B) be assured that when I demonstrate I have " the guys in place" ready to go with the ROV's etc, I get accurate numbers otherwise it's a waste of my time putting a team together,

This first phase would be to bring something up so a solid business plan can be formulated based on " what physically came up " then we can go to get investors for stage 2.

Investors want to tap the treasure on their desk while drinking coffee.
 

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ARC

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No argument, Ed. Well said. I would add to take "treasure" wrecks offers off the forum, and get a bunch of guys here to go have fun with a "history" wreck. Of course, they'e all history wrecks, but once treasure aboard is mentioned, people go crazy. But seeing a group of guys from here dive together and take photos on a history wreck would be fun to watch.

I never got that "fever" myself...
Treasure does not effect me like that... Just material things.
History is where it is at...
Many see a gold bar or chain and are in aww... and thinking about the money etc...
I see the same gold bar and chain and think ... I wonder who owned it... who wore this last... etc.
 

SADS 669

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Wouldn't it be nice if really rich investors thought the same way, I view a clay pipe ( not broken) in the same way as a silver coin....
 

shucker69

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You gents have a great idea.
There was a "stand up guy" at the cookout who has the skill level and the team for the recon that the Old Man has requested you seek. This chap it is said has access to both the equipment and the funding a +750 ton treasure shipwreck will require. I think his name is tim. I think Old Man and Sads have his info, if not give me a pm.
 

ARC

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Wouldn't it be nice if really rich investors thought the same way, I view a clay pipe ( not broken) in the same way as a silver coin....

I have seen people... even when I was a young boy... go ape... I mean twisted... paranoid... etc after being in contact with gold.
They have always called it gold fever...
I call it gold stupidity...

Money... we all need it...
But not if it makes you like that...

To me... it does not look enjoyable.

When passion turns to greed is when things go awry.
 

ARC

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The above was me just "scenario applying" ... "if it were me"..

I only dive Florida or Caribbean .. and only salt...
And I don't dive caves... lakes... springs... or rivers anymore... dove most of the good ones already... bores me... even if you told me gold bars... ok maybe... but how many I would ask. :P

IF a "gig" is in water other than Florida or Caribbean... Im not interested... no matter how much money... been there done that. Im good.
IF a gig is in deep water... Im not interested... no matter what is used.
IF a gig involves a bunch of people who "are" lame... just talk about whats next more than doing whats next... im out.
IF a "gig: involves breaking or even bending the law in any way... I am definitely out.

I can afford to be choosy...
I cant afford to waste my time.

I have sites I know of that I cannot dive now... so short of someone with a lease near me... Im out.

I am just curious... about this "Academic scenario" being "built" here... and thought I would throw some real life 2 cents here.

Blah blah blah :P

BUT I wish anyone and everyone who hauls the balls to venture out ON an adventure... good luck in doing so.
Love to meet for congrats and a beer...
And I love the stories man.
 

old man

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I will gladly put together a team for the deep wreck mentioned but I need to
A) know where it is Within a few mikes and
B) be assured that when I demonstrate I have " the guys in place" ready to go with the ROV's etc, I get accurate numbers otherwise it's a waste of my time putting a team together,

This first phase would be to bring something up so a solid business plan can be formulated based on " what physically came up " then we can go to get investors for stage 2.

Investors want to tap the treasure on their desk while drinking coffee.
Nice offer. Let us know if it gets accepted and what happens.
 

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