Cygnus-1X Metal Detector

[Professor of Engineering]

Hello Doc,

Looking forward to see your final product!

Regards,

Doc

 

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[vferrari]

There are too many posts hitting on too many areas for me to respond in logical order and be as comprehensive as all of you would like. Read between the lines on what I do say below, if you are careful and I am precise enough it should leave most feeling pretty good.

Great strides have been made in the Cygnus project and we are currently further along than even hoped for. Now think about that for a minute. It was originally hoped that test machines would be ready to crank out last fall. So what I mean is that even though the overall pace of operations became much slower than originally hoped for the quality and actual down and dirty testing has gone way beyond. AviTech has decided to do just about everything itself which slowed down release dates has resulted in a HUGE hammer about to drop. CNC operations, 3D printing operations, PCB manufacture are all in place and ready to roll off the first 100 units (that can be upped), actual testing to meet the requirements list combined with conversations with friends doing similar technologies but not metal detection has resulted in 4 spin off products and a Cygnus 2 that I really have no words for at this time.

I've given the internal team an expected release time frame but am not ready to make that public yet, but that could change literally by tomorrow.

Will try to give updates more often but I am one tired man. I love the work that I do though and I made a promise to you, I can say you will not be disappointed!

Stay tuned....

There will be pics and first hand reviews (good or bad) when we have the first 1000 units ready to ship and not a second before.

So if I read between these two lines, we will have to wait until you up your production capability and materials 10 fold (however long that takes) before we will see pics and and first hand reviews. Or has something changed...again. It is hard to "feel pretty good" about something that is still invisible. It would be nice to at least see a graphic rendering of what you are going to feed into those CNC machines, at least, if not an actual prototype picture and a preliminary list of features and capabilities. Yeah, I'm pushing hard, but that is because I would like you to be successful. Having another legitimate detector manufacturer is only good for us detectorists especially since another legendary player in the industry has apparently recently bit the dust (Whites).

 

[PowerDubs]

Any business is tough...and although I am sad to see White's close, they weren't putting out a modern product in the style and features that the other guys are.

I'm excited to see what the next year brings the hobby

 

[smokeythecat]

Any business is tough...and although I am sad to see White's close, they weren't putting out a modern product in the style and features that the other guys are.

I'm excited to see what the next year brings the hobby

I'm not surprised White's closed. There have been other manufacturers who just couldn't make it in the past, time moves on, but next year? I hope we're still not hiding from covid next year! People keep talking about a vaccine for Covid, but...there may or may never be one due to the complexities of the process. Fauci stated the way to get rid of AIDS was a vaccine...that's been 40 years now. I am tired of not being around people. My most interactions are with the guys that came this week and rebuilt my deck (hence hardware store comment) and the lawn guy.

 

[Woodchiphustler]

But will it top my Tarsacci? That would be a tall order.

 

[PowerDubs]

Based on what I was privy to be advised of? Yes.

There is not a detector on this planet that can do anywhere near what he proposed.

If he pulls it off- nobody will ever again buy any other detector unless that is literally all that they can afford- and he isn’t shooting for an absurd price- both compared to what others are charging- and the value of what you will find with it.

Exciting.

... and amazingly that is with him bouncing ideas around for a better higher end unit at the same time.

 

[Jason in Enid]

but its nothing but pipe dreams and promises until people actually get something in hand. So far, its been excuses.

 

[PowerDubs]

This is actually funny how people respond to projects building and get impatient.

I’m following a completely different project -

shop.atarivcs.com/intro

shop.atarivcs.com/products

that was announced 3 years ago.. long development cycle, lack of info, changes, public giving it flack non stop- but now about to release for the holiday season and be great!

Even something as simple as a metal detector takes a LOT of work on the business end.

If anyone else thinks they can do better - step up and swing batter batter swing!!

 

[vferrari]

I have deleted earlier posts to consolidate "concerns" regarding this endeavor and inject some reality into the situation. I am not impatiently waiting for this product. Intrigued by the claims but there has been nothing posted regarding specs or even a cartoon of what the detector will look like. Frankly, I find that just simply strange for product that is on the cusp of production. My point here is just to point out some facts that give me pause about this whole endeavor. I consider them "flags" of caution and agree with Power Dubs that a lot of patience needs to be applied here. You seem to know what it takes by your follow of other tech efforts, yet you remained silent on the claimed timelines - why? I really don't have a dog in this hunt. I am just pointing out what should be obvious to anyone who has a clue as to what it takes to bring a tech product to market and hopefully this will spur constructive discussion from Avitech and others as to exactly what is going on, without the need to give away any trade secrets. But realistically, if someone wants to start actually selling the Cygnus there is a point where unsubstantiated claims need be backed up by facts that can be somewhat validated. The opaque nature of just what Cygnus is all about at this point simply runs counter to generating legitimate excitement about a product that is real and not invisible.

People's impatience is simply a reaction to the claims and original timeline that Avitech advertised. I appreciate Doc's grass roots approach to this project. But building up from scratch to production simply takes more than even months. It seems that based on the "toiling away in the lab" comments Avitech is still in the development phase. The technology should have been proven and tested at the lab level months before the agressive production and field test timelines were announced.

The expectation, realistic or not, were established by Avitech alone and repeatedly re-inforced by the "informed" cheerleaders on the sideline.

I totally agree that such a huge technical endeavor is a massive undertaking that involves a hell of a lot more than a genius idea and an ability to pitch it to others. That's why most tech companies have a CEO and a Chief Technology Officer. The skill sets of both those individuals don't necessarily broadly intersect.

It requires financial and capital infrastructure to be able to pull it off. Huge companies with research and development teams and production factories in place can't pull off what Avitech has been claiming to do in the timeframes advertised. Equinox was not launched for several months after initially announced and product testing by experienced field testers had been going on for months before that. Similarly, the recent announcement by Garrett of the Apex in May included videos of pre-production units in action, these were provided to Garrett sponsored field testers for feedback and refinement and product release for sale is not expected until August at the earliest (now - in May it was July). These are actually aggressive launches by established detector companies and Avitech was going to pull that off even quicker?

It requires business and marketing savvy to obtain funding and get the word out. To his credit, Doc acknowledged the funding piece was delayed but not until many advertised deadlines from October (Jan/Feb field testing, March release) had already lapsed. How do you go out and start making promises before you have any resources in hand? Furthermore, Avitech's Website has been in a "Launching Soon" status for over 8 1/2 months.

It requires robust project management and a test plan that makes sense. Committing to hundreds or thousands of units of production BEFORE you even put preproduction prototypes into peoples hands for field testing seems risky even if you can roll back software. Invariably, you are also going to discover hardware issues that might require retooling of the production line. My understanding is that these units are intended to be waterproof. Testing to meet IP certification standards is expensive and is usually farmed out to specialized test labs, any flaw discovered during such testing might require a significant case redesign. Same with FCC EMI certifications for ANY device that emits RF signals.

I know that Doc has built his own detector, but scaling up from that, to a garage outfit, to a full blown production outfit is something that takes years not weeks. Doc says it is "not his first rodeo" yet these missteps somewhat betray claims of experience in attempting to pull of something like this. Even Tarsacci is still a small time operation and I suspect the only barrier to mass production is it's high asking price. If Avitech is going to market an affordable detector, is the infrastructure in place to support the demand and also the post-sale technical support for broken units that will be required. What quality assurance team is in place to ensure quality off the line?

Just scratching the surface here to inject some reality. Hopefully, productive, informed response will follow. If not - all we have is talk and thin air.

Again, I root for any new technology that can benefit the hobby, and am excited if this gets off the ground but I have no idea of even the underlying technology or principle I am rooting for, much less game changing specs and performance. I am also a pragmatist and realist, and reaching for the brass ring needs to be accompanied up by some concrete facts and results to back up any claims regardless of how "exciting" or "amazing" they may be.

Good luck to Avitech, but let's start having a little more transparency so we can understand just what the heck we are rooting for.

 

[Jason in Enid]

I have deleted earlier posts to consolidate "concerns" regarding this endeavor and inject some reality into the situation.......

You forgot one aspect, and the one that soured me on this entire venture. After recruiting forum members here (and who knows how many other locations) to be "testers" they then began asking large sums from those people in order to secure exclusive sales rights for a detector that doesnt exist. Even though this MAY be completely on the level, that is a sign of a scam and far too much large of a red flag for me.

As for time lines, look at Fisher's upcoming AQ detector. Its a discriminating PI designed for salt water beaches and primarily for hunting gold. the creator spent over a decade designing, building, and testing garage built models to prove the concept. Eventually his idea was proven enough that Fisher bought the rights and hired the creator to continue work. It has been years since that step and they are still in the product testing and refining stage. Creating, testing and sales of a brand new tech within months? As I said at the start, never happen.

 

[PowerDubs]

You forgot one aspect, and the one that soured me on this entire venture. After recruiting forum members here (and who knows how many other locations) to be "testers" they then began asking large sums from those people in order to secure exclusive sales rights for a detector that doesnt exist.

I haven't been active in the Cygnus project group for the last 6 months, but when I was- there was much discussion among the group- and never once did I see or hear of any mention of anyone asking a single cent from anyone else.

That may have changed since-but for the months I was in the group, it was not anything whatsoever to appear to be a scam or profiting from others. In fact- it was repeatedly stated that the detector itself was to be priced at a level to make it widely available to anyone wishing to have it without a massive price tag.

As far as advertising goes- if he builds what he has in his mind, (and he may already have)- it won't need a fancy ad campaign. The stark difference from what current machines are will make it's own news- people will make youtube videos and posts like never seen before!

 

[smokeythecat]

I was excited in late 2019 about the idea of a new machine and was asked to be a tester. As Power Dubs stated, that he hasn't been active for 6 months with the group, I also haven't heard anything from or been active with the group for at least six months.

I was never approached for any money, if that helps, Jason.

 

[vferrari]

You forgot one aspect, and the one that soured me on this entire venture. After recruiting forum members here (and who knows how many other locations) to be "testers" they then began asking large sums from those people in order to secure exclusive sales rights for a detector that doesnt exist. Even though this MAY be completely on the level, that is a sign of a scam and far too much large of a red flag for me.

You seem to have details that I don't, in that regard.

I did not forget that aspect, I simply have no first hand knowledge that is actually the case from those that were or are still involved in the venture and making even an inference of that without proof is really a serious accusation.

I am just trying to get concrete information of Cygnus capabilities and status, point out project execution flaws based simply on what Avitech and Avitech associates have publicly posted that give me pause, and am not interested in accusations or starting rumors of impropriety so I am steering well clear of that minefield.

 

[Jason in Enid]

OK, I'm going to recant my last post. Since its already been quoted, simply editing it wouldnt suffice here. I went back, re-read some posts and obviously mis-remembered a comment made. So for that I apologize. Doc has NOT asked people for money.

 

[signal_line]

Any new project has many uncertainties. Doc is trying to get something good out. Why anyone wants to belittle him kinda sounds like they need to tend to their knitting.

 

[vferrari]

Any new project has many uncertainties. Doc is trying to get something good out. Why anyone wants to belittle him kinda sounds like they need to tend to their knitting.

No one is belittling anyone else here (if that was the case, it has been corrected) so please do not twist this around. I am careful to focus on Avitech the company, not Doc the person. I do see a lot of deflection however from apologists when people are just trying to ask legitimate questions. Not sure why people want to be kept in the dark, but that's fine if they do.

Frankly, at this point this has a lot less to do with missed project deadlines. Just simply asking what that "something good" is, it really hasn't been described in basic terms similar to what you might get from a pre-release marketing brochure from a detector manufacturer. In other words, the uncertainties of concern are not when and how, but what. Hope you can somehow understand the difference. This is a discussion forum after all, isn't it? Now where did I put my knitting needles.

 

[cudamark]

Being a current member of the Cygnus advisory group, I can confirm that I have not been asked for any money whatsoever. Members have all signed NDA's and can't give out any information without Doc's permission. My take (and my opinion only) on the silence and lack of tech info is that being a small startup, leaking any info might give the existing companies ideas that they wouldn't normally have. The current manufacturers would probably also be able to ramp up production much quicker than a small company like Avitech eclipsing the advantage of being ahead of the curve, so to speak. I'm not sure if patents are currently in place to protect his intellectual property or not. I hope so, but, that takes time also.....time I would rather see him spend on building a working prototype and not worrying about other parts of the puzzle until Cygnus is proven to work. One step at a time. No point in ramping up promotional advertising, hints at technology, or, photos of a "cartoon" detector if the revolutionary tech doesn't pan out. He's had some health issues, and, with the quarantine situation, delays were unanticipated, but, understandable. Hopefully, it will all be resolved and we get a great piece of gear we can all enjoy. If not, we're really not out anything. I can still go out, detect, and find interesting stuff!

 

[vferrari]

Being a current member of the Cygnus advisory group, I can confirm that I have not been asked for any money whatsoever. Members have all signed NDA's and can't give out any information without Doc's permission. My take (and my opinion only) on the silence and lack of tech info is that being a small startup, leaking any info might give the existing companies ideas that they wouldn't normally have. The current manufacturers would probably also be able to ramp up production much quicker than a small company like Avitech eclipsing the advantage of being ahead of the curve, so to speak. I'm not sure if patents are currently in place to protect his intellectual property or not. I hope so, but, that takes time also.....time I would rather see him spend on building a working prototype and not worrying about other parts of the puzzle until Cygnus is proven to work. One step at a time. No point in ramping up promotional advertising, hints at technology, or, photos of a "cartoon" detector if the revolutionary tech doesn't pan out. He's had some health issues, and, with the quarantine situation, delays were unanticipated, but, understandable. Hopefully, it will all be resolved and we get a great piece of gear we can all enjoy. If not, we're really not out anything. I can still go out, detect, and find interesting stuff!

Mark,

Thanks for chiming in.

Yes, with the exception of the unexpected pandemic, all the challenges you mentioned - e.g., getting a patent (note that Garrett's Apex MF patent is merely pending, BTW, the patent does not have to be in place to provide protection to the IP) were known and addressed by Avitech when the original timeline was put out there. So that must have been factored into the timeline equation, I would have thought.

Now, what you are saying is that Avitech still is in the prototyping phase seems inconsistent with Doc's update a month ago that they are ready to start production up to a 100 unit capacity.

It's just a jumble of mixed messages and that's the point. Of course no one is being harmed by this and if it doesn't pan out, no one on the outside is going to shed a tear and yes, of course, no one is being stopped from detecting now.

If that is the takeaway, I just wonder what the point of all the hoopla was months ago leading up to this since it appears this is still in the nascent stages of development. We were not the ones clamoring for this. Doc was the one who came to Tnet and put the proposal on the table and then had the associates talking about revolutionary tech, amazing spinoffs, and miraculously cherry picking keepers from the junk. I would have thought that the cheerleaders would have seen an actual practical demonstration of the principle supporting this revolution in detecting before hyping it up as the next big thing. It is clear now this was deftly pitched but not proven and people have been running with it ever since.

Anyway, still wishing good luck to the Avitech team. Hope the underlying tech is sound and the implementation is eventually successful. I'll be sure to stop holding my breath and will go back to the knitting table or the relic fields, once the weather cools down a tad. Hope to someday see this Cygnus in action and, once I have had a chance to evaluate the whether the specs and tech are worth plunking down my own hard earned cash for, would like to have a chance to use one myself.

Cheers.

 

[PowerDubs]

Still hopeful this moves the hobby forward.

 

[Digger RJ]

Well said Cudamark