Do you believe in dreams?

[Escape]

escape, hvacker, tamrock & kcm: At various times through this thread in your inputs, you have put high relevence in "eastern" and/or "american indian" notions/beliefs. As if western culture and views is lacking. Ie.: all us white European guys are "oh so deprived and lacking". Customs, knowledge, beliefs, etc... But the other cultures and religions *must* be true, because they are so mystical and cool, eh ?

I don't buy it. If you are getting ready to fight off some disease, or have surgery for some ailment, who do you see ?

A) an american doctor ? or B) an american indian witch doctor shaman ?

If you are deciding on the best way to please your creator , do you sacrifice virgins on altars ? Some Europeans landing in the new world in South American are recorded as having witnessed stuff like this. But certainly it's valid and true, since, of course, the indians were doing it, right ?

Tom, Your getting a bit carried away unnecessarily. People have different views and they are intiltled to them as you are intitled to your views. If you want to believe yours are right and everyone else's is wrong, thats cool too. What matters is what you believe and not what others think about it. You said "I don't buy it." Well the truth is no one is trying to sell you anything. No one cares if you except it or not. It just ain't that important.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

.... People have different views and they are intiltled to them ....

Ok, let's put this "morality is relative" statement to a test:

Regarding some south American indian cultures (observed by the arriving Europeans explorations in the new world): The sacrifice of young indian women virgins "to appease the gods" . Is that wrong or right ?

And do not answer "it's 'right' for them, but not 'right' for me" sort of hippy dreamy answer. Because then you merely have a contradiction. Eg.: it's either RIGHT to steal your car stereo, or it's WRONG to steal your car stereo. If you try to answer that that it's "right" for some cultures, then you can not object when they come to your house to steal your car stereo (or sacrifice your virgin daughter, or whatever).

 

[kcm]

Re: Tom's post - #80:

Tom, I know nothing about any "eastern beliefs". Nothing. I haven't studied them; I haven't discussed them; I haven't practiced them. All I know for certain is, there is no one belief on the planet that covers everything - and that includes Christianity. I grew up Christian, but lost faith after being repeatedly raped when young. I wanted to believe after that, but couldn't. It's these "mystical things" that you speak of that have again, after MANY years, convinced me that God truly does exist. I spent my life torn between faith and actual experiences, as I could not understand how the two could possibly mesh or be associated in any way. Well, I get it now - not enough to explain it, but I get it now.

There's a LOT more to life, faith and "The Beyond" than I can possibly understand. My recommendation would be to stop nay-saying and accept the fact that you don't have all the answers, either. Nobody does. That's by design.

**PARTS DELETED**

I could go on and on and on for several days, talking quickly, and not repeating myself in order to cover everything. But my last remaining brain cell just can't handle that kinda processing anymore. All I know is, the majority of what came to me during those weeks/months was meant "for me"; for my own peace of mind. Did it come from me? From my subconscious? I seriously doubt it!! I know we only use a portion of our brains, but I'd be THRILLED if my mind could process THAT amount of information!! You can think me a quack if you choose - I really don't care. Also, I'm not here to try and convince you of anything. That's not my place. All I can ask of you is to allow me my beliefs, as I allow you yours. So long as the two do not conflict, then everything should be OK....provided we don't return to the Salem Witch Trials any time soon!

It's comments like your last post that kept me quiet throughout my life - the fear of being looked upon like a freak or something. And yet, now that I understand that the Bible's teachings and what I've known/experienced are actually the same thing, I no longer have that fear. Actually, I crave to understand more!! Sadly, nothing more is necessary, so nothing more comes. And that suggests that it does not come from within. I want more than anything to tie together some things; so much so that I have dwelled on them for days sometimes. But I don't make something out of nothing, like you were suggesting before. That's not me. Oh, I have my share of crazy thoughts - don't get me wrong! But you don't know me, and I certainly have never been like the status quo. Does that make me special? Nope, just makes me "me". Sure would have been easier to go through life without all this stuff, but in the long run, I'd rather live with my eyes open, regardless of what I see.

**NOTE**: Please to not "quote" this post. I posted it here for you few to read, but I wish to edit out some of the more personal things at a later time. I cannot do that if you quote it.





**Hey guys, thanks for not "quoting" the post. It has now been modified with where I'd like it to be in the Tnet Archives. Thanks again!!

 

[Honest Samuel]

I have dreams every Morning before I wake up. Some are very sad.

 

[Peyton Manning]

all good dreams involve ladies

 

[Escape]

Ok, let's put this "morality is relative" statement to a test:

Regarding some south American indian cultures (observed by the arriving Europeans explorations in the new world): The sacrifice of young indian women virgins "to appease the gods" . Is that wrong or right ?

And do not answer "it's 'right' for them, but not 'right' for me" sort of hippy dreamy answer. Because then you merely have a contradiction. Eg.: it's either RIGHT to steal your car stereo, or it's WRONG to steal your car stereo. If you try to answer that that it's "right" for some cultures, then you can not object when they come to your house to steal your car stereo (or sacrifice your virgin daughter, or whatever).

Keep dreaming my friend. Maybe we someday you will find your answers. Just not from me.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Just not from me.

I already know your answer. You would say it's wrong to sacrifice virgins to volcanoes, and it's wrong for someone to steal your car stereo. You would not say it's just wrong in *your opinion*, but ..... simply ... Wrong.

I know it's trendy to say there's no moral absolutes. But the person saying that, belies their own statement in their very next breath. When they pronounce anything "wrong" or "right" (which are moral pronouncements afterall).

 

[Tom_in_CA]

KCM, ok, no quotes.

I don't know how you/this veered from the question of "are there moral absolutes?" to "Christianity" . Nowhere did I align the question of moral absolutes with any particular religion.

But since you've brought it up: Your story is tragic ! That is horrible to happen to anyone. And your conclusion of that being your reason to reject Christianity has strong rhetorical effect. However, isn't that a reflection of that individual monster who perpetrated that on you ? Needless to say, his stated belief system did not condone that. He's a hypocritical monster. And it wasn't his "mouth service" belief system that caused that. No more so than if he'd have been an atheist, would you therefore conclude that atheism therefore can't be true.

Anyhow, ..... none of this has to do with the OP. Even the question of "moral absolutes" was a rabbit trail off the subject of dreams . Doh !

 

[kcm]

You keep saying how we keep getting farther and farther from the OP, yet the very first line in my last post states I'm writing "in reply" to your post, #80. It's late right now, I'm stuffed with a BIG burger, so with that I bid everyone a good evening full of GOOD dreams!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...I'm writing "in reply" to your post, #80....

Ha! And I was writing in response to several who started connecting this "dream" issue, to "western vs eastern" [and indian, blah blah].

 

[Escape]

I already know your answer. You would say it's wrong to sacrifice virgins to volcanoes, and it's wrong for someone to steal your car stereo. You would not say it's just wrong in *your opinion*, but ..... simply ... Wrong.

I know it's trendy to say there's no moral absolutes. But the person saying that, belies their own statement in their very next breath. When they pronounce anything "wrong" or "right" (which are moral pronouncements afterall).

You don't know my answer because I didn't give it. It not a discussion about wrong or right actions its about dreams.​

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....

You don't know my answer because I didn't give it....
​

Then you are the first person I've ever met who would say it's ok when someone steals their car stereo.

 

[kcm]

Hey Tom - sent ya' a PM. Maybe that will help with a few questions.

As for your final question of what does this have to do with the OP, well, someone asks a question that's difficult to answer without going off-topic. And I, for one, can't seem to answer ANYTHING in a simply way!

 

[Escape]

Then you are the first person I've ever met who would say it's ok when someone steals their car stereo.

I didn't say that either as you well know. It seems if you don't get an answer to a question, you just make one up and attribute it to the person asked. Lovely but common. Why don't you just sum up your views on dreams and post them instead of stolen car radios and people being sacrificed in volcanoes.

 

[hvacker]

Many religions started with a mystical beginning. When reading about them I see a common thread.
A problem with Christian mysticism is it's gotten lost in the organization. The business of religion.
A moral imperative is often a major part of the metaphysical doctrine which is what we expect.

Sometimes morality gets cloudy as in Thou shalt not kill unless it's an enemy.
As far as Christianity is taught today for the most part mysticism is ignored. My brother-in-law was an
ordained minister and I once asked why the mystery of the church was ignored. I didn't get an answer
but I supposed the congregation didn't want to know about it. Keep it simple or they will fire you. I knew
one minster that was in fact fired for teaching a mystical after hours class.

Dreams often are revealing and lead one to ask questions that many Christian churches don't and won't
deal with. Like I said in a previous post, the West is a spiritual wasteland. Much of the First People's teachings
weren't shy about these things.
Simply put, if you can't get fed at the table your at, move to another.

 

[kcm]

Good points hvacker! As for a religion turning south, look at old England and all the horrible things that happened in the name of the church and the king. Of course, that led to the few who ventured across the pond to risk family and fortune in order to form a new, FREE land. Sadly, much of the mysticism of older peoples are only now beginning to be accepted in conversation. As with eastern medicine, there's still much that the west has to learn. For example, I was reading recently about some disease (I think it was a cancer, maybe?) that is treated by the diet that the patient eats. It was discovered back in the 1930'sbut has only recently gained more widespread acceptance, but ONLY because of the absolute results that have shown up time and time again. Many natural things are curative, whereas much of what "we" create is the opposite.

Going back to the mystical stuff, life today is FULL of distractions!! There's little if any quiet time. In other words, it's really difficult for people to stop and listen to that little voice inside of them. Strangely, that voice may be their conscience, or it may not be. It is simply accepted as "that little voice" because people don't have a clue what else it "could" be, and they think that if they try more to figure it out that it may go against their beliefs. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's how it went for me. I was wrong! Everything that happened meshed perfectly with what was learned in church and what the Bible speaks. So yes, I again have full faith in God, Heaven, etc. However, I have little faith in people anymore. That's something I will probably always need to work on.

Have a great Christmas everyone!!

 

[Honest Samuel]

Have a Merry Christmas.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I didn't say that either.....

What you "didn't say", was to answer the question of whether you would say theft is "wrong". And I was saying that I bet you would say that .... yes .... it's "wrong" (Since you are most likely not a sociopah). Hence making a statement of moral absolute, NOT relativism. And when you declined to answer, I tried to jump to the chase: Only a sociopath would not pronounce the moral absolute of ".... that's wrong".

Why does someone's post about "dreams" rabbit trail off into religion and mystics and philosophy? Because I guess they are invariably connected. Better yet, let's all talk about metal detecting !

 

[kcm]

What you "didn't say", was to answer the question of whether you would say theft is "wrong". And I was saying that I bet you would say that .... yes .... it's "wrong" (Since you are most likely not a sociopah). Hence making a statement of moral absolute, NOT relativism. And when you declined to answer, I tried to jump to the chase: Only a sociopath would not pronounce the moral absolute of ".... that's wrong".

Why does someone's post about "dreams" rabbit trail off into religion and mystics and philosophy? Because I guess they are invariably connected. Better yet, let's all talk about metal detecting !

...Are you a head shrink or something?!?!?

I try not to assume. Always seems to get me into trouble!

 

[kcm]

all good dreams involve ladies

Hmm... Ok Jeff, let me see if I understand this correctly. If you have a dream about striking it rich with a huge gold strike but there are no ladies involved, then it's not a good dream?!?!?