Dowsing sceptics!

[ClonedSIM]

xupz...You and Af are great treasure hunters. I am doing some testing on some new rods today. I will start my test 8 miles south of this location -119.729 x 38.8761. Use you smart pencil and calculators and tell me what my results will be? I know other can tell me what is buried near this location so you experts should have no problem. ...Art

Art,
xupz never claimed to be a treasure hunter. Where did you get that from? He is an intelligent, rational and well-spoken individual that has validity issues with dowsers and dowsing. Not the people specifically, but the rationale behind their beliefs and the absurdity of the length they will go to in order to keep dowsing from being subjected to testing.
As far as your "challenge" goes, unless I'm able to do some research on the area you've specified, there is no way of knowing. I'm assuming you've done some research of your own, otherwise you'd just be blindly wandering across a field in the hopes of stumbling across something. I suspect this is not far from what you normally do, but I digress.
If all you have to do is look at a map, or a photo of a patch of land, and be able to use a pendulum and your superior brain-power to divine the location of anything at all, then why do the armed forces spend billions on spy planes and spy equipment and satellites and radar and sonar, when all they have to do is call you? I think you're in the wrong business....

 

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[ClonedSIM]

"Most psychics and dowsers, for example, do not even realize that they need to do controlled tests of their powers to rule out the possibility that they are deceiving themselves."

Most Skeptics of dowsing, for example, do not even realize that with a simple set of coat hanger rods they can learn the truth about dowsing. They fear that they will be able to dowse. They are so afraid of what they may learn about themselves.

They want us to take a test that will prove if ONE PERSON can dowse or not. They no nothing about how dowsing works but claim they have a perfect test. That tells me that they are afraid to learn and don't have the guts to even try to dowse...Art

And this is where you're wrong....again.
I recently had the chance to metal detect the site of an old farm-house, dating about about 150 years. I know that this house was torn down about 1920, and the land has been plowed under and used for grazing livestock since then. The site is remote and does not have power lines closer than 5 miles, and the site was never plumbed or irrigated, so the chance of underground pipes is almost nil. I can't be 100% certain, but darn close.
Because of the remote location, I decided I would bring along a set of coat-hanger rods that I bodged together in my garage the night before.
After I hunted the area for a couple of hours with my detector, and had made some nice finds, I put it away and brought out the *gasp* rods....
I felt more than a bit foolish and had no clue what to expect, but the results were not terribly surprising. It was windy that day, so that may have been part of the problem, but as loosely or tightly as I held them and as still as I tried to be while walking, I would constantly get the left rod crossing over the right, while the right one stayed almost perfectly still. So, I figured that meant I had to turn to my left, but when I did, the same thing happened. Soooo...I took a step back and tied to see if I was standing on the target. Still to the left though.
Not wanting to give up just yet, I stuck the rods in the dirt and went back to the car to retrieve a silver quarter I had dug that day.
I buried the quarter about 5 inches down and took a few steps back, held up the rods, and walked. I passed over the quarter from several different directions and got no response other than the rods swaying occasionally in the breeze.
What's my excuse?

 

[ClonedSIM]

They want us to take a test that will prove if ONE PERSON can dowse or not...Art

And what's wrong this this? If you take a dyed-in-the-wool dowser out and subject his "ability" to testing, and he fails, this is a conclusion that further tests can be based on for other dowsers.
All your statement proves is that you aren't willing to be the one to take the test.

 

[aarthrj3811]

I buried the quarter about 5 inches down and took a few steps back, held up the rods, and walked. I passed over the quarter from several different directions and got no response other than the rods swaying occasionally in the breeze.
What's my excuse?

No one said it was easy....The rods may or may not work for you. It may take a litle practise. Under the experts theory the rods should have crossed over the quarter. You know the one that the Ideomotor Response will make them cross on known targets making you think they are working. You sure give up easy..You may be able to add another tool to your searches.

And what's wrong this this? If you take a dyed-in-the-wool dowser out and subject his "ability" to testing, and he fails, this is a conclusion that further tests can be based on for other dowsers.
All your statement proves is that you aren't willing to be the one to take the test.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,14390.msg127043.html#msg127043 # 62 #64 #72 # 73 # 74 # 75
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,19834.0.html Thread start #1--------# 7

Your right ....I will not be a lab rat for these people.....The above reports could be a base for other studies. So why do you ignore them. Because they prove that people can dowse?

Your right about my coordinate. I have reseached the area. I determined that there were no signals to interfer with my rod test south of the target. I also found roads south of the target for easy access. I found that the rod did not preform as I was told it would. It had a range about 1/4 mile more than my old rods. This test means nothing to anyone else but me as each person that dowses has his own limits....Art

 

[xupz]

@af1733

You know after you spoke of having dealt with these people for months on end with no progress it really just killed my verve for trying to approach them with any logic. aarthrj3811 is a perfect example.

Most Skeptics of dowsing, for example, do not even realize that with a simple set of coat hanger rods they can learn the truth about dowsing. They fear that they will be able to dowse. They are so afraid of what they may learn about themselves.

See this is where you're delusional. From everything I've read you will in fact have a response using the "dowsing" rods, it's called the ideometer response which is very well documented. The delusion comes in when you believe it's actually something more going on than just an ideometer reponse. You do realize that no one has denied there actually being a response when you use dowsing rods right? The ARGUMENT is that the results are no better than random completely independent of the dowsing rods. Also, since almost every single dowser here admits to also researching areas prior to dowsing them, if there is something there then the probability of finding something goes up because of research, not the dowsing rods. More importantly because you have already researched the area, it feeds your ideometer response which you in turn take it believe you're actually finding something.

They want us to take a test that will prove if ONE PERSON can dowse or not. They no nothing about how dowsing works but claim they have a perfect test. That tells me that they are afraid to learn and don't have the guts to even try to dowse...Art

Sorry but testing one individual does prove something, that he can perform no better than random. Now wash and repeat for every individual and you've just proven every dowser cannot perform better than random. What's even more amusing is that dowsers themselves do not know how dowsing works. They just know there is a real response in the dowsing rods, which is because of the ideometer response. Afraid to hold two rods in your hand and walk around like a moron? I wouldn't say anyone is afraid of "dowsing" so much as afraid of looking like a complete delusional zombie. Sounds to me that you're afraid to be tested because you know you will fail. I know you will anyway like anyone else who uses logic over belief.

I love this argument though, dowsers use it all the time from what I'm seeing. If anyone does use dowsing rods THERE WILL BE A RESPONSE. There is no debate here. I think everyone will have their rods bend magically. The argument is that the RESULTS from dowsing are completely random. These are independent of each other. Just because THE FACT people holding rods will have a ideometer response DOES NOT prove dowsing is capable of finding anything without having prior knowledge of it's location. Wonder why all those dowsers have have 100% test rates in controlled conditions when they KNOW where the item is? I bet every single one of them had their little magical rods bend right over the location when they knew it was there. When it comes to the randomized portion of the design their little rods take way more time to find the item. Why? Because they don't know where it is and in all probability they KNOW they don't know where it is. So they take a guess and magically the rods bend towards the guess. This is most logical explaination. This is why not a single dowser has every passed a single controlled experiment. They can't do better than random. Period.

The rods may or may not work for you.

What the hell is this excuse? I've seen it in almost every reply. You are correct though on both. The rods WILL work by bending/crossing from the ideometer response. I won't debate that. That seems to be about the sum total of all dowsers arguments: TRY IT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS. We know what will happen, the rods will bend. What won't work is that the rods won't find squat better than random. If you can't understand the difference and how the bending of the rods due to the ideometer response does not increase the probability of finding something, then my only possible conclusions:

1) You're uneducated.
2) You're highly delusional. You're so convinced that there is an increase in probability of finding something that regardless of being educated on the subject you CHOOSE to not believe the undeniable facts in front of you.


The sad thing is that the only way to verify dowsing works as far as increasing the probability of a find is through statistical analysis and designed experiments. The only problem is they fail every single time. AF put it best:

Percentage of dowsers that can perform under scrutiny: 0%. To me, that speaks volumes.

 

[Freque_T]

457 Hz will null out an LRL...but you must have another metal object resonating at that frequency as the man said earlier.

I just proved this myself.


"There are lies, damned lies, and damned statistics." Me

 

[musstag]

And, for those of you that do NOT have more than one Lrl, I can TELL you that you Will get signals up the yang yang that you can not figure out if 3 Lrl's are on in the area and you only know where one is!!! (and if someone is moving one of those around) Some channels on a CB will give you fits also.

 

[musstag]

I believe I would have a better chance to smuggle IN a transmitter to a test site, ( or have someone following me do it) whatever safeguards are installed, than to insure that a transmitter is NOT smuggled into a test site and not used at various times during a test.

 

[xupz]

457 Hz will null out an LRL...but you must have another metal object resonating at that frequency as the man said earlier.

I just proved this myself.


"There are lies, damned lies, and damned statistics." Me

How exactly did you "prove" it? What devices did you use to generate the frequency? How did you scan and eliminate all other frequencies in the area to control for interference? How can you prove it had any effect greater than random probability? Let me guess, you convinced yourself therefore it is proven. I guess my post pointing out the fact you're all delusional went ignored. I have to admit though, I find all these claims rather amusing. It's like I'm in the town from Gymkata, The Town of the Crazies.

The new name for the dowsing forum will be The Town of the Crazies.

 

[musstag]

You are RIGHT about one of your guesses. As for his results, I would guess that He turned both of them on and tried dowsing! How crazy is that?

 

[aarthrj3811]

These guys hate for dowsing is so strong that they will not listen to what anyone tells them. Prove means nothing to them. Name calling is what they think is thier best tool. Just calling dowsers names will make people think they are lairs. We have a simple frame that complety eliminates IDOMOTOR RESPONSE and they still believe it controls us. Sorry Sam but your statements are a little over the top agian..........Art

 

[xupz]

These guys hate for dowsing is so strong that they will not listen to what anyone tells them. Prove means nothing to them. Name calling is what they think is thier best tool. Just calling dowsers names will make people think they are lairs. We have a simple frame that complety eliminates IDOMOTOR RESPONSE and they still believe it controls us. Sorry Sam but your statements are a little over the top agian..........Art

Once again, you posted another horribly written reply that had absolutely no substance. I know for a FACT just from the way you speak that you're uneducated. Your argumentative logic is full of holes to boot.

I will give you credit though for one thing. In your misspelling of "ideomotor" I realzed I spelled it incorrectly myself. Just goes to show you double check web sources for inaccuracies.

Another day in The Town of the Crazies!

 

[xupz]

These guys hate for dowsing is so strong that they will not listen to what anyone tells them.

Would you classify yourself as a hypocrite or should I?

 

[musstag]

Name caller, say something of value or shut up.

 

[ClonedSIM]

I'd say that xupz has got plenty of valuable information to pass along, and I happen to agree with almost all his points.
Dowsers are a rather unique bunch, as far as negative individuals and emotions affecting results and only dowsing at certain times of the year and paranoia about non-dowsers. I, and xupz apparently, can't help but to question the motives of some dowsers, especially when the same excuses keep being taken down and dusted off each time someone questions their "ability."
I honestly think that each of you spends far too much time testing various ways of making, or not making, the rods do what you want them to. This is how you fool yourselves into thinking they're doing something they're not. If you tell yourself that the rods will cross when you step on a coin, then step on that coin 200 times, you will eventually get to the point when you can make the rods will cross when you step on that coin, and not even realize it. This is why, when applying this to a testing situation, you cannot achieve the same results, no matter who is standing around, because you won't be aware of the coin's location.
No one wants to take the test, though.
Yes, it will provide results of only the dowser taking the test.
Yes, there will be skeptics standing around. It's their money, wouldn't you be there if it was yours?!?
Yes, your results will be scrutinized to make sure there are better than chance.
But what's wrong with this? If I made claims like some dowsers do, I would expect skepticism as well. But, I would also be willing to back up my claims, if for no other reason to provide proof of them. But I must have integrity not present in some doswsers. I guess it's a decision you have to make on your own.

 

[musstag]

Well, the time I may or maynot have wated in testing dowsing beyond finding gold rings at the beach or other areas, and searching for Treasure, was done to try out for Carls and Randi's test. I have no other reason to have someone hide gold rings under paper plates. But I have learned quite a bit of info about how I can foil a dowsing test if anyone wants to take one that I would conduct. I admitt that the biggest problem we or I have with dowsing for LTB Treasure is the colloid effect that will produce false responses. It puts you in the area, but not at the exact spot. Now, newly lost items... the signal is right on! So my reason to be here is to learn more.
For instance, has any dowser ever had a new person try it, and without any success untill you (the dowser) Places one or both of your hands on their shoulders as they are dowsing? Try it and let me know.

 

[ClonedSIM]

Are you suggesting that the dowser who places his hands on the newbie's shoulders can somehow "pass" his dowsing knowledge and ability to the new dowser? Sort of like talent osmosis?

 

[aarthrj3811]

I don't know where to start...I must be uneducated as you guys tell me. I graduated from the school of hard knocks. I have been locating gold since 1980. Af1733 states that the rods will close when you step on a coin. How come they do nothing when he steps on a coin? Maybe you have to do what you say you tried. What happens when you complement yourself on a forum? Is it fun?

If you have any prove that I can not Dowse please post it. In fact if you have any proof that Dowsing does not work from any place but the skeptics web sites please post that too. Please can you give me the difinition of Ideomotor Response from a reliable sourse. I may be uneducated but I can tell when some one has no idea what he's talking about....Art

 

[ClonedSIM]

I don't know where to start...I must be uneducated as you guys tell me. I graduated from the school of hard knocks. I have been locating gold since 1980. Af1733 states that the rods will close when you step on a coin. How come they do nothing when he steps on a coin? Maybe you have to do what you say you tried.

Art.....uneducated barely comes close to describing you.
You are the one that claims to be able to step on a coin and have your rods cross, not I. I tired this because you said you can do it, and I was unable to duplicate the results you claim to have. The reason I attribute to the rods not crossing when I step on a coin is because I haven't trained myself to cause the rods to close. And what basis do you have to state that I have not performed this test?
This is exactly what I predicted would happen when you challenged me to try dowsing for myself. Because I was unable to locate anything using a system you claim works, I must be lying when I say it did not work for me. I conveyed this to you several times, but you chose to ignore it then, and you have simply fulfilled the depths I predicted you would sink to; calling me a liar because I rose to your challenge.

What happens when you complement yourself on a forum? Is it fun?

There are certainly no dowsers to compliment here.... (Use the spell check, Art. It's there for a reason.)

If you have any prove that I can not Dowse please post it. In fact if you have any proof that Dowsing does not work from any place but the skeptics web sites please post that too. Please can you give me the difinition of Ideomotor Response from a reliable sourse. I may be uneducated but I can tell when some one has no idea what he's talking about....Art

First, let's give Art a little lesson in Grammar...

If you have any proof that I cannot Dowse, please post it. In fact, if you have any proof that Dowsing does not work from any place but the skeptic's web sites, please post that too. Can you please give me the definition of Ideomotor Response from a reliable source? I may be uneducated, but I can tell when someone has no idea what he's talking about....Art

With that out of the way, please stop showing you A$$, Art. How many times can you possibly ask for the definition of Ideomotor Response? By my count, this makes six times. If you can tell when someone has no idea what he's talking about, why didn't your internal alarms go off before you posted this ludicrous response?

 

[lucky1777]

Why all the name calling?