Dowsing sceptics!

[ClonedSIM]

And your staement of "It was the only variable changed from the open to the blind test " You'd better be able to Prove that!!! Since you must have been there, you Know that nothing else took place, right. (nevermind, I was just using some of your type of reasoning.) The only proof to be determine is THAT SOMETHING else did change, evidenced by the results.

Do you bother to read your posts before just throwing them out there? Of course something changed in the test!
The first time around, the guy could see his targets, and on the second run he couldn't, and he failed to dowse better than chance when he could no longer see the targets.
But, let's ask ourselves this question. Is this man really the person you want representing dowsers in this challenge? Sacajawea coins are gold? An office coffee spoon is silver?

 

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[Carl-NC]

Since you must have been there, you Know that nothing else took place, right. (nevermind, I was just using some of your type of reasoning.) The only proof to be determine is THAT SOMETHING else did change, evidenced by the results.

My testing of dowsers has yielded the same results as what Randi describes. Dowsers are consistently successful in full-view tests. They consistently fail in blind tests, with everything else exactly the same, and just a few minutes after the successful full-view tests.

Most dowsers refuse to accept these results, but that's what happens.

- Carl

 

[musstag]

Well, from those informal test, I was wonderiing if they got too many signals or none.
I don't bother with full view dowsing... after a time or two there is no need to do that. I look for stuff I can dig.
Hey, I have a better slogan for you skeptics.. much better that That DUCK behind business...
"Can you dig it... Dude" (what a educated hippie might say)

 

[aarthrj3811]

Hey Af1733...I see you found some definitions. Ideomotor is movement of the body caused by a thought or Idea. The Ideomotor Effects has had Dowsing added to a long list. Response..1. The act of responding. 2. A reply or an answer. 3. A reaction, as that of an organism or a mechanism, to a specific stimulus. Only one mention of Dowsing and you know how that Dictionary can be changed.

I ask again...If you have any proof that I cannot dowse, please post it. In fact, if you have any proof that Dowsing does not work from any place but the skeptic's web sites, please post that too. I guess you found out why I don’t let the Ideomotor Effects have anything to do with my Dowsing. It can also keep the rods from closing.

If Dowsing does not work what are you so afraid of? If Dowsing does not work we will not locate your treasures first. I promise not to search in your area unless my research shows a target deeper than 12 inches. That should keep me from stealing what ever your looking for.

uxpz...Better read some more of Randi's web site...NO one has taken the $1,000,000 test. No one has passed the Qualifing part yet. The facts are hidden pretty deep but they are there..Art

 

[dowser501]

Dell took the Randi test some years ago. I forwarded the tape to Carl. He failed miserably.

 

[ClonedSIM]

Hey Af1733...I see you found some definitions. Ideomotor is movement of the body caused by a thought or Idea. The Ideomotor Effects has had Dowsing added to a long list. Response..1. The act of responding. 2. A reply or an answer. 3. A reaction, as that of an organism or a mechanism, to a specific stimulus. Only one mention of Dowsing and you know how that Dictionary can be changed.

You didn't ask for a definition of ideomotor response as it pertained to dowsing, you asked for a definition of ideomotor itself. We say ideomotor causes you to think you're doing something other that was is actually happening. The definitions I gave you explain this quite well. You'll notice that I've mentioned the word "paranoid" more than once when referring to dowsers. Do you honestly think all 5 sources are wrong, or that the dictionary folks are out to "get" you?

I ask again...If you have any proof that I cannot dowse, please post it. In fact, if you have any proof that Dowsing does not work from any place but the skeptic's web sites, please post that too. I guess you found out why I don’t let the Ideomotor Effects have anything to do with my Dowsing. It can also keep the rods from closing.

I'll have all the proof I need if you would agree to have your "ability" tested. But since you're afraid of the results....well....that's really proof enough for me.

 

[ClonedSIM]

If Dowsing does not work what are you so afraid of? If Dowsing does not work we will not locate your treasures first. I promise not to search in your area unless my research shows a target deeper than 12 inches. That should keep me from stealing what ever your looking for.

Oh, and I would love to have you come and dowse in my area. I would enjoy following you around mith my detector and grabbing all the stuff you miss. Of course, your dowsing wouldn't work since a skeptic would be in the vicinity full of negative thoughts, right? Oh well, never mind.

 

[ClonedSIM]

AF1733, I'm leaving for Alabama in two weeks To a place where a lot of Gold is believed to buried. I will be searching 120 acres. You are welcome to follow behind my Dowsing with your Metal detector, and keep all the Gold you find.

If you want to do it in NM, just pay all my expenses.

I have no problems Dowsing with a skeptic around. I have had skeptics watching me on every project I've done. Dell

Dell took the Randi test some years ago. I forwarded the tape to Carl. He failed miserably.

Really?

 

[xupz]

 

[ClonedSIM]

 

[aarthrj3811]

You didn't ask for a definition of ideomotor response as it pertained to dowsing, you asked for a definition of ideomotor itself. We say ideomotor causes you to think you're doing something other that was is actually happening. The definitions I gave you explain this quite well. You'll notice that I've mentioned the word "paranoid" more than once when referring to dowsers. Do you honestly think all 5 sources are wrong, or that the dictionary folks are out to "get" you?

What's wrong af1733...The question in reply #55 was " Can you please give me the definition of Ideomotor Response from a reliable source"? You seem to have made an error again. The Dictionaries do not agree with you....Art

 

[aarthrj3811]

DOWSING IS HARD WORK BUT I ENJOY FINDING NOTHING

 

[ClonedSIM]

You didn't ask for a definition of ideomotor response as it pertained to dowsing, you asked for a definition of ideomotor itself. We say ideomotor causes you to think you're doing something other that was is actually happening. The definitions I gave you explain this quite well. You'll notice that I've mentioned the word "paranoid" more than once when referring to dowsers. Do you honestly think all 5 sources are wrong, or that the dictionary folks are out to "get" you?

What's wrong af1733...The question in reply #55 was " Can you please give me the definition of Ideomotor Response from a reliable source"? You seem to have made an error again. The Dictionaries do not agree with you....Art

So, are you arguing that the sources aren't reliable? Or do you not like the definitions? You can give the good folks at Merriam-Webster and Encarta a call and let them know. I'm sure they will be quite upset to know they have a definition in their publications that doesn't agree with your perspective.
BTW. Be sure and tell them you like to walk around holding sticks and talking about your amazing talent. That'll speed the process along, I'm sure.

 

[aarthrj3811]

How about Merriam-Webster?

Main Entry: ideo·mo·tor
Pronunciation: "I-dE-&-'mO-t&r, "i-
Function: adjective
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary
: not reflex but motivated by an idea <ideomotor muscular activity>

Encarta?

ideomotor
- relating to body movements: describes body movements triggered by thoughts rather than by external stimuli

So, are you arguing that the sources aren't reliable? Or do you not like the definitions? You can give the good folks at Merriam-Webster and Encarta a call and let them know. I'm sure they will be quite upset to know they have a definition in their publications that doesn't agree with your perspective.
BTW. Be sure and tell them you like to walk around holding sticks and talking about your amazing talent. That'll speed the process along, I'm sure.

I didn't say that. Are you taking about wiggling your toe or what? How does these difinition tell me anything about Dowsing? I agree with those difinitions. If those difinitions were false how would my heart beat?..Art

 

[ClonedSIM]

How about Merriam-Webster?

Main Entry: ideo·mo·tor
Pronunciation: "I-dE-&-'mO-t&r, "i-
Function: adjective
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary
: not reflex but motivated by an idea <ideomotor muscular activity>

Encarta?

ideomotor
- relating to body movements: describes body movements triggered by thoughts rather than by external stimuli

So, are you arguing that the sources aren't reliable? Or do you not like the definitions? You can give the good folks at Merriam-Webster and Encarta a call and let them know. I'm sure they will be quite upset to know they have a definition in their publications that doesn't agree with your perspective.
BTW. Be sure and tell them you like to walk around holding sticks and talking about your amazing talent. That'll speed the process along, I'm sure.

I didn't say that. Are you taking about wiggling your toe or what? How does these difinition tell me anything about Dowsing? I agree with those difinitions. If those difinitions were false how would my heart beat?..Art

There are so many things wrong with this post I hardly know where to begin.

Okay, let's try this.

Your heartbeat is involuntary, like breathing, and has nothing to do with Ideomotor.

It is not difinition, it is definition....again.

The definitions above all describe movements that are controlled by an individual, based on his own thoughts and ideas, and not acted upon by an outside force. This is what we mean when we say dowsing is controlled by ideomotor responses, and not some mystical, other-worldly intervention.

If you want to argue the definitions further, please take it up with the folks who put the dictionaries together. I'm quite tired of teaching you words, as you show little ability to retain and process information.

 

[xupz]

I didn't say that. Are you taking about wiggling your toe or what? How does these difinition tell me anything about Dowsing? I agree with those difinitions. If those difinitions were false how would my heart beat?..Art

Wow... I have no words to describe the faulty logic, spelling, or use of grammar. Anyone else notice how Art's replies consist of more questions than reply? Just an observation.


And those pictures prove absolutely nothing except you pan for gold, a lot. I've never done it before but I've read all you need to do is find black sand or something which is a general indicator of gold being present. I wonder if he expected people to go:

"HOLY JEBUS, HE HAS PICTURES OF PANNED GOLD, THAT PROVES DOWSING WORKS WITHOUT QUESTION - SIGN ME UP"

 

[ClonedSIM]

Glad you decided to chime in, xupz. I was getting loopy from trying to sort out Art's muddled logic alone.

 

[xupz]

@AF

Yea this thread has gotten pointless really. It's already degraded from an attempt at using logical reasoning and applied mathematics to dealing with the delusional dowsers. Although it does provide some entertainment reading their replies and claims, so it's not a total loss

 

[xupz]

HAHAHHAHA omfg. You won't believe this site I just came across:

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/dowsing/index.htm

Now it appears dowsing is an OCCULT and people who dowse are being tricked by Satan. The only logical dowser argument is that dowsing = devil worship.

The Trickery of Satan

When once the Devil is seen in the dowsing act, the seemingly outlandish question of Satan's ability to 'do good,' and man's using evil or an evil source to do good raises its ugly head. The apostle Paul wrote letters to the fledgling churches or communities in the then civilized world. In those letters he tackled the problems that faced the new and inexperienced Christians. He wrote of these two problems which evidently existed from the beginnings of Christianity.

Man the rabbit hole of dowsing just gets more insane by the minute. One can only hope there's a bottom.

AND IT KEEPS GOING!

Dowsing as a First Step Into the Occult

It must be clearly understood. We are not suggesting that picking up the dowsing rod or calling in a witcher to locate a water well will certainly result in suicide or insanity. We do say it is the first step in the wrong direction.

The uncertainty of it is that one can never rest assured when the next step (temptation) will be presented, and just how tempting it will be. The certainty of it is that the next step will be presented sooner or later. The Christian is indoctrinated in the rule of "As ye sow, so shall ye reap." This is the one unchangeable aspect of the least involvement with the occult.

We have referred several times to dowsing as the first step, and in several different ways. The following steps are not always experienced in the order we list them, but generally there is a logical order, one building on the last. At least these are the steps that have actually been experienced:

1. Dowsing, using an Ouija Board, going to a 'reader,' etc.

2. An opportunity that can be seized only through further occult means. For instance, if one happens to be in need of further information that cannot be gotten in the yes and no answers of the dowsing device, it may be suggested that a visit to a medium will provide an answer. By this time, that extra bit of information has become so necessary, this step is almost impossible to refuse.

3. After having experienced steps one and two, this important and most attractive new possibility to get information and advice is almost impossible to

Page 137

turn away from. This results in more active participation in mediumism, psychometry, or other exciting psi activities.

4. Some occult ability will suddenly be received. It may be telepathy, retrocognition or precognition, and one is suddenly an active participant in occult manifestations.

5. The final step will be the preparation or indoctrination to receive a "control" or "guide" or "familiar spirit." This may start through vivid and unusual dreams, unexpected and alien (important) ideas, a distinct mental impression (astonishingly different from the usual), and finally, the awareness of something or someone (a presence) nearby generally at the right hand side. Eventually, after a time of introduction, the guide will establish an acceptable and recognizable method of communication.

6. Then, although the recipient is not only unaware of the danger, and will not turn back even if warned, the trouble starts. The guide starts giving advice.

This advice is valuable, resulting in all sorts of advantages and good things. Then, if the advice is not taken, the guide pushes a little for compliance. Then the advice changes to demands�all for the 'good' of the recipient. The demands become stronger and instructions are given as though they must be followed. The person may resist, become angry, and demand to be left alone. It does absolutely no good, because although the guide will back off, it returns again and again endlessly and there is no way to escape. It ends by demanding control of every decision, action, thought and wish.

 

[aarthrj3811]

The definitions above all describe movements that are controlled by an individual, based on his own thoughts and ideas, and not acted upon by an outside force. This is what we mean when we say dowsing is controlled by ideomotor responses, and not some mystical, other-worldly intervention.

I was hoping you would give me that kind of answer. What you are tell me is that if I pick up a set of dowsing rods, they will only move because of an involuntary movements made in response to a though or idea. I agree that there is nothing Mystical or para-normal in Dowsing. You are also saying that the mind can not be trained to ignore these impulses. If I'm not in error there are a lot of Doctors that make their living training peoples minds to ignore though and idea's...Art