Dowsing test

[aarthrj3811]

See Art? There you go again, misrepresenting people.

I've told you several times that I've tested a number of dowsers, over a dozen, and that each and every one of them failed. Yet you insist on making false statements about me, the same as you continuously do with Randi. Why do you do this Art? Are you dishonest?

- Carl

Gee Carl...We all know that I can not post Quotes from other sites on here...So keep writing...Art

 

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[Carl-NC]

Gee Carl...We all know that I can not post Quotes from other sites on here...So keep writing...Art

What does that have to do with your inability to tell the truth?

 

[aarthrj3811]

Art, for quite some time you've been touting this experiment as evidence of some sort of mysterious energy emitted by objects. But all you've made is a simple electroscope, and all you are detecting is electric charge. I replicated your experiment and can get similar results. It's just basic physics.

However, what you built is not the classic electroscope I'm familiar with, i.e., the two-leaf variety. So I did a web search, and what you made is called a "versorium." Click here and here for more info on this.

Carl...I clicked on your link. I did not make a Versorium. My device does not work like that. Mine is a fore runner of the electroscope. Did the objects emit some form of energy that could be measured. Yes they do. That is a scientfic fact. Your Versorium experiment is about rubbing two objects and measuring the static charge. Big difference.

What does that have to do with your inability to tell the truth?

How to make the instrument and how to do the tests are on this forum. Any one can do the tests. I am told that objects do not emit any thing that can be measured. I proved that objects emit an energy that can be measured. That is the truth. This is a known fact in physics.

The rules do not change because of your believes. Your only objection to my tests is the fact that Dowsing Rods can pick up these energy emmissions. ...Art

 

[Carl-NC]

My question, "What does that have to do with your inability to tell the truth?" was directed at your claim that "So far Carl has tested one person who failed." That is flatly false, as you have been told over and over. You have a bad habit of repeating false statements, even after you know they are false.

Regarding you experiment, what you describe is exactly a versorium. Exactly. Calling it something else, or believing it's something else, doesn't change the facts.

- Carl

 

[aarthrj3811]

My question, "What does that have to do with your inability to tell the truth?" was directed at your claim that "So far Carl has tested one person who failed." That is flatly false, as you have been told over and over. You have a bad habit of repeating false statements, even after you know they are false.

Well Carl...You know the rules of this forum. Only one report of anyone taking a test from you was posted on this forum. One only. I can not report what you have said on other forums. Thats the rules. Thats the truth...My posts are accurate and truthful.

Regarding you experiment, what you describe is exactly a versorium. Exactly. Calling it something else, or believing it's something else, doesn't change the facts.

For a test with a Versorium you will need:
a plastic soda straw
about 2 feet of thread
tape
objects made of different materials (glass, plastic, wood, etc.)

For a test with a Radiodynamometer you will need.
A quart jar with a lid.
A 6 inch piece of liquid rubber looking like a piece of a spider web
A 1/2 inch disk made from Alum foil.
Objects made from different material ( gold, silver, wood and bit of an onion)

A Versorium is to check for static as the first sentence says Rub the objects
A Radiodynamometer is to read what the objects are emmiting without creating the charge.

Carl....Tell us where I am not telling the truth....Art

 

[Sandsted]

I just got home this evening and did a quick search for you Carl. I couldn't, in the little time I checked, find the results of the study I spoke of. I believe I read it in a book on magnetism, that I do not personally own.

Anyway, I found this article that can explain how people could do what I told you they did.

"Some years ago scientists at CALTECH (California Institute of Technology in Pasadena) discovered that humans possess a tiny, shiny crystal of magnetite in the ethmoid bone, located between your eyes, just behind the nose.

Magnetite is a magnetic mineral also possessed by homing pigeons, migratory salmon, dolphins, honeybees, and bats. Indeed, some bacteria even contain strands of magnetite that function, according to Dr Charles Walcott of the Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology in Ithaca, New York, "as tiny compass needles, allowing them [the bacteria] to orient themselves in the earth's magnetic field and swim down to their happy home in the mud".

It seems that magnetite helps direction finding in animals and helps migratory species migrate successfully by allowing them to draw upon the earth's magnetic fields. But scientists are not sure how they do this.

In any case, when it comes to humans, according to some experts, magnetite makes the ethmoid bone sensitive to the earth's magnetic field and helps your sense of direction.

Some, such as Dr Dennis J Walmsley and W Epps from the Department of Human Geography of the Australian National University in Canberra writing in Perceptual and Motor Skills as far back as in 1987, have even suggested that this "compass" was helpful in human evolution as it made migration and hunting easier.

Following this fascinating factoid, science journalist Marc McCutcheon entitled a book The Compass in Your Nose and Other Astonishing Facts.

Stephen Juan, Ph.D. is an anthropologist at the University of Sydney."

So...draw your own conclusions.

 

[Korban]

Thats interesting about the magnitite. Im not saying that its not true, i believe you. But then i wonder why when people get lost they wander around in cirlces?
And does the size of the magnitite vary in individuals?

 

[Sandsted]

Your question isn't why people get lost and go in circles if they have this, the true question would be, "Why do people not use this?"

You understand what I'm saying? Just because you have a natural tool to find your directions using the magnetism of the Earth, doesn't mean you'll use it.

 

[Sandsted]

A good friend of mine referred me to this article concerning the same subject, I believe it is better written then the first.

"Magnetic bones in human sinuses


R. Robin Baker, Janice G. Mather & John H. Kennaugh


Department of Zoology, University of Manchester, Manchester M13 9PL, UK


Studies on the interaction of magnetic fields and biological organisms1 have centred on the influence of applied magnetic fields on the physiology and behaviour of organisms, including humans, and a search for magnetic sources within the organisms themselves. Evidence continues to accumulate that a wide range of organisms, from bacteria to vertebrates, can detect and orient to ambient magnetic fields (for examples see refs 2−4). Since the discovery that magnetic orientation by bacteria was due to the presence within the organism of magnetic particles of the ferric/ferrous oxide, magnetite5,6, the search has begun for other biogenic deposits of inorganic magnetic material and ways in which the possession of such material might confer on the organism the ability to orient to ambient magnetic fields. Such magnetic material, often identified as magnetite, has been discovered in bees7, homing pigeons8,9, dolphins10 and various other organisms4, including man11. A variety of hypotheses for the use of magnetite in magnetic field detection have been proposed12,13. We report here that bones from the region of the sphenoid/ethmoid sinus complex of humans are magnetic and contain deposits of ferric iron. The possible derivations and functions of these deposits are discussed."


I tried to attatch another, older, article concerning the same object but could not due to it was not a jpg, gif, or kml file. Anyway, it says bassically the same thing. If you can find it it is titled, "Ferromagnetic Crystals (Magnetite?) In Human Tissue" by Joseph L. Kirschvink. I don't think it is readily available...my friend, who is in some form of biological studies at the University of Minnesota, said that she could get it through the University and was afraid that it wouldn't allow me to open it. But anyway, it just says, bassically, the same things that the other two have already said. It's just a bit more indepth concerning some points.

 

[Carl-NC]

Well Carl...You know the rules of this forum. Only one report of anyone taking a test from you was posted on this forum. One only.

Two other people who did tests with me posted on the old TNet LRL forum, long before you came along. I'm sure you'll deny this. You can also read about Jim Thomas on my web site. Perhaps you'll deny this ever happened. And, as I've told you, I offer confidentiality with informal testing, so it's up to them to discuss it.

I can not report what you have said on other forums. Thats the rules. Thats the truth...My posts are accurate and truthful.

OK... let's see... this means you can safely ignore everything you've ever learned anywhere else except this forum, and simply make up everything you post here. Yup, I think that's about right.

For a test with a Versorium you will need:
a plastic soda straw
about 2 feet of thread
tape
objects made of different materials (glass, plastic, wood, etc.)

For a test with a Radiodynamometer you will need.
A quart jar with a lid.
A 6 inch piece of liquid rubber looking like a piece of a spider web
A 1/2 inch disk made from Alum foil.
Objects made from different material ( gold, silver, wood and bit of an onion)

A Versorium is to check for static as the first sentence says Rub the objects
A Radiodynamometer is to read what the objects are emmiting without creating the charge.

So I guess you just didn't bother clicking on the second link I provided. You know, the one that shows a versorium made with an aluminum foil vane. Yes, it shows it pinned to a base instead of hung from a thread, but it could just as easily be hung from a thread (or a strand of rubber) and perform the exact same function.

Now, I'm sure you'll continue to deny the device you made is a versorium, since this example is not 100% identical to yours, and since you have a habit of denying things even when presented with absolute proof to the contrary. But the fact is, that's what you made, and ordinary electric charge is the effect you are seeing.

Carl....Tell us where I am not telling the truth....Art

OK... how about "So far Carl has tested one person who failed."... that's a lie, Art. And you know it.

- Carl

 

[aarthrj3811]

Gee Carl...When the objects are placed by an airtight jar with a aluim foil circle in it and the foil responds to them you say it is an electric charge. You agree that the ojects are emiting some kind of energy. That is a fact that anyone can prove. This makes your whole theory of Dowsing wrong.

OK... let's see... this means you can safely ignore everything you've ever learned anywhere else except this forum, and simply make up everything you post here. Yup, I think that's about right.[/quote

You know the T-net rules.

"

So far Carl has tested one person who failed."... that's a lie, Art. And you know it.

I apologize for the statement. It should have read has test 0 people who failed. Since the posts are no longer here I was not following the rules ....Art

 

[Sandsted]

Art, Carl doesn't believe these energies...or electricity...or whatever, is emitted.

But...Carl...I must ask, for you have not yet made note of my posts, what your conclusion is concerning the ferromagnetic crystals in human tissue?

 

[Captain Trips]

Gee Carl...When the objects are placed by an airtight jar with a aluim foil circle in it and the foil responds to them you say it is an electric charge. You agree that the ojects are emiting some kind of energy. That is a fact that anyone can prove. This makes your whole theory of Dowsing wrong.

Wrong. What such a device shows is that objects POSSESS electric charge, not that they EMIT it. The device's name doesn't matter. The device's construction doesn't matter. It is a device that only shows the presence of static electric charge. And the only value that a static charge has is charge (measured in coulombs.) And the exact amount of charge is not specific to any one material -- many disparate materials can have the same electric charge. Although it has been shown that metallic objects can not have any static electric charge whatsoever. Therefore, it can not be different electric charge that indicates the presence of different materials, especially distinguishing between different metals! So, whatever you call it, and however it works, a device that shows electric charge does not confirm the presence of whatever aspect it is that dowsing picks up on to determine one material from another.

Come on, the physics involved with static electricity are very basic -- not even college level. These effects are fully examined in a basic high school physics class. Non-metallic materials can hold a static charge, while metallic materials conduct active electric charge. Neither one "emits" an electrical signal, at least when not involved as part of an electric circuit. Certainly not a form of electrical signal unique to the material involved. As I said, this is very elementary high-school physics. So it can not be electric charge that is involved in dowsing. Try another explanation.

(And before you point out that metal detectors can identify different materials by what they "emit," that isn't the case. With a MD, the material being detected does become part of an electric circuit, through the well understood means of electrical induction. It is the characteristics of that induction circuit that identify the metal. But it does require an originating source of the electrical signal, which is the detector itself. And it can not identify, nor even find, non-conducting objects.)

 

[Carl-NC]

Gee Carl...When the objects are placed by an airtight jar with a aluim foil circle in it and the foil responds to them you say it is an electric charge. You agree that the ojects are emiting some kind of energy. That is a fact that anyone can prove. This makes your whole theory of Dowsing wrong.

Wow, Art... that's some awesome logic. Wait... lemme try...

I place a compass on a table. I move a magnet near the compass and... the compass needle magically moved! Why did it move? Lemme think... OK, it's because the magnet emits some kind of unknown energy. Yeah, I know some physics phreak will try to tell me that it's just an ordinary magnetic field, but I say it's not, and that all of this proves that ESP really, really works.

Is that a stupid line of reasoning, or what? I'm glad I just made it all up, and that I don't really think that way. It would be embarrassing.

- Carl

 

[Carl-NC]

Art, Carl doesn't believe these energies...or electricity...or whatever, is emitted.

They're not "emitted." They're static fields. Sorry you don't understand that.

But...Carl...I must ask, for you have not yet made note of my posts, what your conclusion is concerning the ferromagnetic crystals in human tissue?

I've looked at that in the past, and I did a quick review again. It's well-known that a number of organisms, including many migratory animals, have the ability to sense the Earth's magnetic field via embedded magnetite. It appears that humans also have a minute amount of magnetite. One account I read suggests it might have played a part in early human evolution (no evidence presented). It was also suggested it is now merely vestigial, and serves no active purpose, much like the appendix.

What's glaringly omitted in all these accounts (at least I never saw it) are experiments which determine whether humans have any ability to sense magnetic fields. It would be very simple to test, and I suspect it has been done, but I could not find any such reports.

- Carl

 

[aarthrj3811]

They're not "emitted." They're static fields. Sorry you don't understand that.

Ok Carl, If they are static fields that can be measured. How far do these static fields extend? How come they can only be measure from the cardinal directions?

The birds are still going South for the winter. Can physics still explain how they still are doing this? It seems to me that since magnetic north is now 640 miles west of where it used to be that would be a problem.....Art

 

[Carl-NC]

Ok Carl, If they are static fields that can be measured. How far do these static fields extend? How come they can only be measure from the cardinal directions?

I'm sorry, Art, but I refuse to waste my time trying to explain something to you when I already know you'll reject it now, and then a week later pretend the explanation never occurred. Like I said before, get a book on introductory physics, and make an effort at learning something on your own for a change.

The birds are still going South for the winter. Can physics still explain how they still are doing this? It seems to me that since magnetic north is now 640 miles west of where it used to be that would be a problem.....Art

I suppose the same way I can still use a compass to find my way around while backpacking the NC wilderness areas, with sufficient precision. Magnetic north only drifts 25-30 miles per year, apparently birds can manage that without GPS. I'll bet you could look this up on your own, too.

- Carl

 

[Sandsted]

Carl, some reports, one that I provided, says that perhaps it is of no use to humans today...but it is the same as in migratory animals, there is no reason to suppose that humans don't use it. I've read of studies showing that humans do have a natural intuition of the direction North, presumably because of the magnetic forces of the earth. I know of studies showing this, otherwise I'd have never looked for magnetite in humans.

The one report that I provided does say that perhaps it was used in human evolution, as you say...there is no evidence to support that. This is just a hypothesis. I don't support evolution.

Anyway, I must conclude that humans do, as many animals, have the ability to (without the aid of any technology) find the magnetic north. Therefore, your previous statement that "human senses are limited" must be false. This point alone have I questioned.

Sandstedt

 

[Carl-NC]

Carl, some reports, one that I provided, says that perhaps it is of no use to humans today...but it is the same as in migratory animals, there is no reason to suppose that humans don't use it.

There is reason to believe (and even evidence to support) that migratory animals use magnetic orientation senses. There is no reason to believe that humans do the same.

I've read of studies showing that humans do have a natural intuition of the direction North, presumably because of the magnetic forces of the earth. I know of studies showing this, otherwise I'd have never looked for magnetite in humans.

These are the studies I asked you to provide.

The one report that I provided does say that perhaps it was used in human evolution, as you say...there is no evidence to support that. This is just a hypothesis. I don't support evolution.

It doesn't matter whether you support evolution... it happened. If you wish to insist that the beliefs of illiterate sheep herders outweigh the overwhelming evidences provided by the entire scientific community, then I suspect we have no common ground to even discuss this topic.

Anyway, I must conclude that humans do, as many animals, have the ability to (without the aid of any technology) find the magnetic north.

I would like to see evidence of this.

Therefore, your previous statement that "human senses are limited" must be false. This point alone have I questioned.

The alternative is to say that human senses are unlimited. Can you see infrared? Can you hear ultrasound? Can you smell a Luna moth a mile away? Is it impossible for your normal senses to be deceived? The answers to all of these is "no." "Human senses are limited" is a factual statement.

- Carl

 

[musstag]

OH, NOW I SEE... Carl still believes in evolution. I guess he paid attention in grammer school. SO Thats what HIS problem is, that kind of thinking. You are ATE UP with this thing about "scientific community"... aren't you. NO NEED TO SAY ANYmore, that explains all of Carls beliefs to me... Carl your sadly mistaken on several subjects.
Scientist didn't invent physics, who do you think did? You have to go back a ways, before the begining of time for that answer. What did it all evolve from...ha. I agree, Things can change or mutate BUT......
Simpley stated, There is no way that monkeys mutated to the World and its knowledge that we know today with OUT Devine Intervention.
END OF CHAPTER.