Dutchman Ore

[sgtfda]

Too much has been assumed with this incident as is. One reason it's so screwed up. One thing does not fit make something new to replace it.

 

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[Azhiker]

Too much has been assumed with this incident as is. One reason it's so screwed up. One thing does not fit make something new to replace it.

Or. As with so many stories, the telling gets confused and "screwed up" with each telling. Whisper something in someones ear and ask them to pass it on, by the time it's passed on ten times the story is completely diferent than it was first told. thats human nature. I think whats happened here is the telling of the story started out right, but got "screwed up" to say it was Wells fargo. All Matt did was set the story back on its right track.sometime you have to look at things like they really were and not as how the story has became after 50 or 100 people have passed it on. It makes sense to me that one of the other stage lines that did ship gold could have been the one waltz used.

azhiker

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matt

Thats a very interesting and informed post. since Wells Fargo didn't ship gold themself its a good chance the story of Waltz shipping gold to SF got confused in the retelling and people just asumed it must have been Wells Fargo. That could mean the story may have been true all along. also it could account for the 7000 or 700 dollars worth of gold waltz sent or transfered to his sister in either kansas or Missouri on the shipping document in T. Glovers book The Golden Dream. Do you know if any of the records of the other Stage lines are still available ?

azhiker

Azhiker,

I believe IF Jacob Waltz ever shipped any of his gold to California it would have been between the years 1870 and 1885. In those years, James Stewart's California Arizona Stage Company and Jack Gilmer's Gilmer and Salisbury Stage Company were the ones shipping gold and valuables between Arizona and California.

I've run into a blank trying to find out if any of the California Arizona Stage records still exist. The Gilmore and Salisbury Co. records and the later Prescott Phoenix California Stage company records are still around but have not been able to access any of them as of yet. The same persons who ran the Gilmore Salisbury line also controlled the Prescott Phoenix and California line. Maybe one day these records will be made available and someone will go through them and find something.

Steve Creager was trying to run down the Jacob Waltz bank draft when he died about 6 years ago. Another person picked up where Steve left off and ran into an impass with the National Bank records for Lawrence Kansas. The draft was recently picked back up when the files of B. David Russell (Basil), the man who owned the draft, became available, but I have not heard if any progress has been made. Since I'm now living in California, I've lost touch with a lot of old contacts back in Arizona.

Matthew

 

[arctodus]

Hi all-

Does anyone have a copy of the assay report for the Waltz gold? I know various people have signed affidavits claiming it is real, but I was wondering if anyone has or can post an actual copy of it. I would think it isn't that hard to find or get a copy of it. In fact, if anyone can give me any definitive information on it I might be able to find it if no one else has it since I have access to a lot of resources other people don't. I don't want to sound like a braggard there! I'm far from it but it is the situation. Anything of use might be asssay number, place of assay, name of person assaying, etc...you get the drift. All information is pertinent when trying to find an old record.

Also- as far as the stage records go that might be a tough one. I spend a lot of my time (getting paid actually) trying to track down old records. It all depends on the individual personalities of the people you are dealing with and how you come across. If you come across as a crazed LDM hunter you aren't even going to get your foot in the door. But if you say you are interested in something else, like how many barrels of whiskey were shipped in such a year, you might be able to get in the door. Just a tip from someone who's been doing this for twenty years now for a living...

 

[roadrunner]

I too have asked about this myself and have sent out a couple of pm's to people in case they did not want to reply in public.
Since you are an archeologist,can you tell me if I found the assay report,could you tell me where in the supes would be the best place or the best chance to find the spot that fits the description or matrix of the ore.

 

[arctodus]

Hi roadrunner-

Well, as far as the assay report goes I think I could probably locate it if someone would be willing to provide the details of it (if it exists). I know some of the details but it would be much easier if someone would send me all of the details. At this point I'm even a little skeptical that ore from the LDM even exists, and there is absolutely 0 proof that the match box or the ring were from the LDM ore. I am convinced there is and was a LDM mine however. After all, it doesn't matter and will not help anyone find the LDM. That is to say, even if you had the report, the only way that would help would be to systematically sample the entire Supes, send those samples, and then go back to the spot where those samples matched. It is my opinion that the real reason the LDM has not been found is because of a few factors.

1. It really was so well concealed that it remains concealed....though this is unlikely even for ironwood after 120+ years.
2. The mine was later mined by any number of miners/mines established later. It is now a known and exhausted mine.
3. Nobody has been lucky enough to find it. Seems unlikely given the thousands of people scouring the hills for 100+ years.
4. The mine has been found and mined- pit mine? Maybe. It fits my 'wrong place' idea below. But again, who knows? Also, the Adams 'Lost Dutchman Lies' which I think is so insane it is unreal (in fact it boggles my mind)...that is a case of making a theory and then finding evidence to back it up. Doesn't work in the scientific world.
5. And my favorite- everyone has been looking in the wrong place.
6. My least favorite and not really backed up by evidence- there is no LDM.
7. Also- there is this. Nobody actually "qualified" to look for the mine has done so. There are a lot of subtle things that pop out to the eye of someone who does this thing for a living versus those who don't. I don't mean qualified in the sense of time spent in the mountains, or prospecting experience, or general intelligence. I mean that people who spend all day looking for or at these things and are trained in geology/geomorphology have a much better perspective on what they are looking at than those who don't. Full time miners and prospectors are seasoned at this and good at seeing things that others don't, but, if you have some geology or geomorphological knowledge it helps you out all the more.

Generally, the Supes and surrounding area are HUGE and the mine could be anywhere up there. I have my ideas. You have yours. We all do!

 

[roadrunner]

Thanks cornelius.
How about a geological map?
Would that help.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hi all-

Does anyone have a copy of the assay report for the Waltz gold? I know various people have signed affidavits claiming it is real, but I was wondering if anyone has or can post an actual copy of it. I would think it isn't that hard to find or get a copy of it. In fact, if anyone can give me any definitive information on it I might be able to find it if no one else has it since I have access to a lot of resources other people don't. I don't want to sound like a braggard there! I'm far from it but it is the situation. Anything of use might be asssay number, place of assay, name of person assaying, etc...you get the drift. All information is pertinent when trying to find an old record.

Also- as far as the stage records go that might be a tough one. I spend a lot of my time (getting paid actually) trying to track down old records. It all depends on the individual personalities of the people you are dealing with and how you come across. If you come across as a crazed LDM hunter you aren't even going to get your foot in the door. But if you say you are interested in something else, like how many barrels of whiskey were shipped in such a year, you might be able to get in the door. Just a tip from someone who's been doing this for twenty years now for a living...

arctodus,

You stated you know people have signed affadavits that they saw and read the Waltz gold assay report.
Those two people are Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn. Since you already knew people signed affadavits I assume you know who they are.
Both men live in Arizona.
Since both men have sworn they saw and read the report, both of them should be able to tell you who has it and where you should be able to see it and get a copy.
I think you've answered your own questions.
Now all you need do is contact those two persons.

Matthew Roberts

 

[cactusjumper]

arctodus,

You stated you know people have signed affadavits that they saw and read the Waltz gold assay report.
Those two people are Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn. Since you already knew people signed affadavits I assume you know who they are.
Both men live in Arizona.
Since both men have sworn they saw and read the report, both of them should be able to tell you who has it and where you should be able to see it and get a copy.
I think you've answered your own questions.
Now all you need do is contact those two persons.

Matthew Roberts

Kraig,

Thank you!

Joe Ribaudo

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

hope that bear shot was long distance?

beautiful country...sure not lake havasu...

 

[cactusjumper]

hope that bear shot was long distance?

beautiful country...sure not lake havasu...

Donald,

Yep.......Around thirty feet.

Take care,

Joe

 

[393stroker]

Joe, that's beautiful scenery in anybody`s eyes. I wish to some day live out in an area like that. What state is that? Chuck

 

[roadrunner]

Does this mean that these 2 people are the only ones that have a copy of the report?
Not ASU,or anyone else that we can get a copy of it.
If this is true,how do people find out to compare there gold ore with the Dutchmans.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Does this mean that these 2 people are the only ones that have a copy of the report?
Not ASU,or anyone else that we can get a copy of it.
If this is true,how do people find out to compare there gold ore with the Dutchmans.

Roadrunner,

I don't believe either man has a copy of the report. I could be wrong about that but from what I understand, they just swore they saw the report and what it said and also papers concerning jewelry made from that ore by a jeweler in San Francisco. According to both affadavits, they saw the report from the same person so at least one person has the report.

I don't know if ASU or any museum has the report, I would doubt it but do not know for sure. You have to remember, the report was not a public document, it was a private matter between Dick Holmes, the assayer (allegedly Joe Porterie) and anyone else who might have been involved ( possibly Goldmans Mercantile Store ).

Matthew Roberts

 

[roadrunner]

Ok,so if I found some ore in the supes,and wanted to have it tested against the ldm ore,how would I do it?
And if this is the case,how can anyone say that the ore(ldm) does not match any ore from any mines that are now open,or where open, and then closed, if they don't have any matrix,or something to verify against.
Now,if someone was to say they can match it against the ore at the museum,or some where,how do we know that the specimen,is actually the ldm ore,and not just any ore that people are showing and is fake.
Or just vulture ore, or something.
I for one,if i was at a museum,and someone showed me a piece of ore,and said this is ldm ore,I would have no choice but to say,ok,because I have no idea what ldm ore looks like.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Ok,so if I found some ore in the supes,and wanted to have it tested against the ldm ore,how would I do it?
And if this is the case,how can anyone say that the ore(ldm) does not match any ore from any mines that are now open,or where open, and then closed, if they don't have any matrix,or something to verify against.
Now,if someone was to say they can match it against the ore at the museum,or some where,how do we know that the specimen,is actually the ldm ore,and not just any ore that people are showing and is fake.
Or just vulture ore, or something.
I for one,if i was at a museum,and someone showed me a piece of ore,and said this is ldm ore,I would have no choice but to say,ok,because I have no idea what ldm ore looks like.

Roadrunner,

I can't answer all your questions. The matchbox, ring, cuff links and stickpin were all made from the ore that came from under the bed of Jacob Waltz.(according to the Holmes account and the man who owns the jewelry and ore samples.) Also there are pieces of the ore as it came from the mine with it's matrix. These were once owned by Dick Holmes, then his son Brownie Holmes and finally passed on to a man who wishes to remain annonamous although Corbin and Kollenborn know the man and have signed the affadavits stating they saw the assay and papers on the jewelry made from the ore. T Glover did an ore comparison with the Dutchman ore and reported it in his book Golden Dream.

I guess it comes down to whether you believe it is Dutchman ore or not. If you don't believe it is Dutchman ore, thats fine, it's your opinion and I respect it. Others do believe it is dutchman ore however and I respect their opinion also. You might say, " theres no proof it's Dutchman ore". That is one opinion but on the other hand, there is no proof it isn't. Again, it comes down to whether or not you believe the Holmes account, the Dutchman jewelry and Corbin and Kollenborn's affadavits. If you don't, thats good too, but again, just an opinion, not a fact.

You have to get past whether or not you believe the accounts and stories. I'm not going to change anyone's mind and am not trying to. You can believe whatever you want and it's fine with me, no arguments. I'm happy for you.

But on the same line, there is no proof the matchbox and other ore isn't the Dutchman and arguing with those who believe it is isn't going to change their minds either. Thats what it all boils down to.

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe, that's beautiful scenery in anybody`s eyes. I wish to some day live out in an area like that. What state is that? Chuck

Chuck,

There's lots of Texans up there. It's the country around Pagosa Springs, CO. Lake City and Chimney Rock. I lived just West of there for many years. Vallecito Lake, over by Durango. Great country.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

RR,

Kraig wrote: "Again, it comes down to whether or not you believe the Holmes account, the Dutchman jewelry and Corbin and Kollenborn's affadavits. If you don't, thats good too, but again, just an opinion, not a fact."

Once again, I would ask Mr. Corbin and Mr. Kollenborn if they believe the reports are for "Dutchman" ore. They signed affidavits saying that they had seen the documents. Both men have respect and complete trust in the honesty of the man who showed them the documents, as do I. On the other hand, there is some question about his source for those items. A number of Dutch hunters have made great efforts to become close friends with this man hoping to gain access to his research.

I have to be very careful what I write here, because I respect the man who showed them the documents. Last time I got into this kind of discussion, someone spread the word that I had called him a liar. You have to watch your back closely in the Dutch hunting community, because there are snakes who hide in the grass......everywhere.

As Kraig said, you must make your own judgement as to what constitutes LDM gold.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[roadrunner]

Thanks Matt and CJ.
So only 3 people know about the ore,and they aint talkin. Ok. I will stop that conversation here.
Ok,one last question, then I will quit about the ore.
If i find a piece of ore,where do I go to have it tested against the ldm to see if it matches.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Stage Companies

sets the date on the stage companies a bit differently.