Dutchman Ore

[cactusjumper]

Donald,

Here is what I think about the Holmes story:

One of the things that the late Jim Hatt and I agreed on was that the whole account was.....suspect. You can read what he wrote here: DesertUSA.com/mb3 ? View topic - THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

In Dr. Glover's forward, he gives us many reasons to doubt the truthfulness of the Holmes Manuscript. Despite that, I think he came to believe it to be a true account.

Tom Kollenborn, who knew Brownie very well, has told me a number of times that Brownie denied, to him, that he was the author of the story. That assertion continued right up to the time of Brownie's death.

I don't believe the Holmes story.....at all.

Others will have a different opinion, and they could be right.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Dirty Dutchman]

Donald,

Here is what I think about the Holmes story:

One of the things that the late Jim Hatt and I agreed on was that the whole account was.....suspect. You can read what he wrote here: DesertUSA.com/mb3 ? View topic - THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT

In Dr. Glover's forward, he gives us many reasons to doubt the truthfulness of the Holmes Manuscript. Despite that, I think he came to believe it to be a true account.

Tom Kollenborn, who knew Brownie very well, has told me a number of times that Brownie denied, to him, that he was the author of the story. That assertion continued right up to the time of Brownie's death.

I don't believe the Holmes story.....at all.

Others will have a different opinion, and they could be right.

Take care,

Joe

Theres only one major problem when people say the Holmes Manuscript didn't come from Brownie Holmes....

Clay Worst, Brownies best friend, tells the exact same "deathbed story" in his speaking engagements that is found in the Holmes manuscript. And he says that the story is what Brownie told him, and that it came from Dick Holmes.

Clay also says that Brownie told him "I don't know whether Waltz lied to my father, but I know my father didn't lie to me".

So who's lying? Anyone that believes Brownie didn't have something to do with the Manuscript is kidding themselves.

I will say that I don't believe the "murder" story in the manuscript at all. My personal belief is that Waltz gave Dick the gold, gave him a quick set of directions, and instructed him to share the mine with Julia. For whatever reason, Dick decided to keep the gold and the information to himself. I believe he needed a story to cover his a s s, so he made up the story of Waltz being a murderer. Whatever his reasoning, it still doesn't change the fact that the Manuscript story came from the Holmes family.

If you can refute what I'm saying, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks
Travis

And one more thing. Since Jim Hatt was a friend, I can tell you that just because Jim wrote something on a public forum, doesn't mean it's what he personally believed. He was still searching for things in the hills months before his death, and held his cards close to his chest.

 

[Springfield]

.... Clay also says that Brownie told him "I don't know whether Waltz lied to my father, but I know my father didn't lie to me".

So who's lying? Anyone that believes Brownie didn't have something to do with the Manuscript is kidding themselves. ....

You've almost answered your own question - Waltz may well have lied to Holmes, whose alleged presence at Waltz's deathbed and his alleged 'gift' of high grade ore from Waltz seems uncomfortably sinister. If the story is true, perhaps Waltz distrusted Holmes' presence and misled him. More 'maybes'.

As far as the manuscript is concerned, whether or not Holmes received important information from Waltz is a moot point. This type of information, if thought to be true, would NEVER be revealed. People ALWAYS keep the best parts for themselves. Human Nature 101.

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

You've almost answered your own question - Waltz may well have lied to Holmes, whose alleged presence at Waltz's deathbed and his alleged 'gift' of high grade ore from Waltz seems uncomfortably sinister. If the story is true, perhaps Waltz distrusted Holmes' presence and misled him. More 'maybes'.

As far as the manuscript is concerned, whether or not Holmes received important information from Waltz is a moot point. This type of information, if thought to be true, would NEVER be revealed. People ALWAYS keep the best parts for themselves. Human Nature 101.

Yes, Waltz could have lied to Dick, but that wasnt my point. My point was that the story DID come from Holmes. That's the part I welcomed anyone to refute.

And I believe you have also answered the question (in my opinion) about why Brownie denied the Manuscript.... He gave away more than he wanted to. When he realized that, he had no way to stop it from being made public, so he denied any involvement with it. The only way to argue this is to tell us why Clay says he heard te story from Brownie. If you can do that, then you can say the manuscript is bogus. Until then, the "Brownie denial" means nothing.

Thanks
Travis

 

[Cubfan64]

You've almost answered your own question - Waltz may well have lied to Holmes, whose alleged presence at Waltz's deathbed and his alleged 'gift' of high grade ore from Waltz seems uncomfortably sinister. If the story is true, perhaps Waltz distrusted Holmes' presence and misled him. More 'maybes'.

As far as the manuscript is concerned, whether or not Holmes received important information from Waltz is a moot point. This type of information, if thought to be true, would NEVER be revealed. People ALWAYS keep the best parts for themselves. Human Nature 101.

This is the same argument that can be made for the "Bark Notes" that are avilable in the public arena imho.

If one believes the story of how they came into the public domain (stolen from Spangler and copied), anything that may have been in them providing really unique/good clues to where Bark and Ely thought the mine was located based on information they got directly from Julia, Petrasch, etc... likely never made it into the public copy. What we have in the public Bark Notes is probably not much more than a "good story" - about the same as what Dr. Glover told us last fall about Sims Ely's book.

 

[Springfield]

Yes, Waltz could have lied to Dick, but that wasnt my point. My point was that the story DID come from Holmes. That's the part I welcomed anyone to refute.

And I believe you have also answered the question (in my opinion) about why Brownie denied the Manuscript.... He gave away more than he wanted to. When he realized that, he had no way to stop it from being made public, so he denied any involvement with it. The only way to argue this is to tell us why Clay says he heard te story from Brownie. If you can do that, then you can say the manuscript is bogus. Until then, the "Brownie denial" means nothing.

Thanks
Travis

There are all kinds of speculations to answer decades-old hearsay questions. Maybe Worst did hear the story from Brownie. Maybe Brownie misled Worst. Maybe Brownie denied involvement to remove attention from himself. You can bank on the fact that best friends go out the window if you truly think you know the secret about the 'richest mine in the world'. I'm talking about the real deal, not just a 'theory'. Whether your information is actually valid or not, you'll do everything and anything to protect your secret. Why in the world wouldn't you? I guess if you were naive or just plain stupid, you might tell someone, but I never got the impression Brownie was an innocent fool.

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

There are all kinds of speculations to answer decades-old hearsay questions. Maybe Worst did hear the story from Brownie. Maybe Brownie misled Worst. Maybe Brownie denied involvement to remove attention from himself. You can bank on the fact that best friends go out the window if you truly think you know the secret about the 'richest mine in the world'. I'm talking about the real deal, not just a 'theory'. Whether your information is actually valid or not, you'll do everything and anything to protect your secret. Why in the world wouldn't you? I guess if you were naive or just plain stupid, you might tell someone, but I never got the impression Brownie was an innocent fool.

You could be correct about all of that. But Clay said that Brownie told him the " don't think my father lied to me" statement a few days before he died, while they were at Clays place sitting alone under a tree. It's hard for me to believe he was lying to his friend right up to his death. But on the other hand, I believe Dick made up the murderer story, so maybe Brownie did lie. I still doubt it.

Thanks
Travis

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

thank you mr. Roberts, and joe...
I understand the quality of gold taken from copper deposits...and the quality of the "Dutchman ore"...

I never believed in "wire gold" until I dug my first strand out in copper basin...and also understand, specie is collectable to those whose interests lean towards what the earth creates...
I have held ore from united verde, black matrix full of iron pyrite...or so it appeared...but was the bread and butter of united verde copper company...
my confusion. Or interest...the Dutchman{al sieber} was one of the first to locate a claim in the bitter water region.{Jerome}, he also worked claims in pinto creek, until his death during construction of Roosevelt damn road...
the only purpose I can see in clark, hull, or sieber having an interest in this ore...is an investigative tool...to locate the mother load...
I do not recall any documentation coming to light on this search...if it in fact occurred.

my issue is that here one of the foundation miners in the southwest... buys ore, that by all reason...was probably his or his compatriots by legal claim..
{did I just start something or what?}http://miningartifacts.homestead.com/Arizona-Mines.html

"The Warren district is credited with having produced 7.92 billion pounds of copper. In addition, the district recovered 324 million pounds of lead, 355 million pounds of zinc, 28 million pounds of manganese, 2.79 million ounces of gold and 102 million ounces of silver"

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Yes, Waltz could have lied to Dick, but that wasnt my point. My point was that the story DID come from Holmes. That's the part I welcomed anyone to refute.

And I believe you have also answered the question (in my opinion) about why Brownie denied the Manuscript.... He gave away more than he wanted to. When he realized that, he had no way to stop it from being made public, so he denied any involvement with it. The only way to argue this is to tell us why Clay says he heard te story from Brownie. If you can do that, then you can say the manuscript is bogus. Until then, the "Brownie denial" means nothing.

Thanks
Travis

Dirty Dutchman,

Brownie Holmes said something once that I think is very important to understanding the Holmes account. He said, .... "You can give a man your rifle and you can get it back, you can give a man your saddle and you can get it back, but once you give a man your story, you can never take it back. The mountains will make a liar out of you. People will hound you and hound you about things you don't want to talk about until you finally tell them anything to stop the hounding."

I sat on the couch in Clay's house not very long ago with Clay and another man. The other man was sticking his nose into something that was none of his business and persisted in getting an answer out of Clay and I. Clay and I both put him off with a (polite), " I don't know". Sometimes people will as Brownie said, hound you and won't take no for an answer. To end their questions you will do as Brownie did.

Matthew Roberts

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

not hounding anyone mr Roberts...just an errant historian searching as we do...

anthropologists have run into this issue with "stories" from native americans...there is a saying in academia that every Native family consists of grandmother, grandfather, mom dad the kids, and an anthropologist.

tell them anything to make them go away.

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Dirty Dutchman,

Brownie Holmes said something once that I think is very important to understanding the Holmes account. He said, .... "You can give a man your rifle and you can get it back, you can give a man your saddle and you can get it back, but once you give a man your story, you can never take it back. The mountains will make a liar out of you. People will hound you and hound you about things you don't want to talk about until you finally tell them anything to stop the hounding."

I sat on the couch in Clay's house not very long ago with Clay and another man. The other man was sticking his nose into something that was none of his business and persisted in getting an answer out of Clay and I. Clay and I both put him off with a (polite), " I don't know". Sometimes people will as Brownie said, hound you and won't take no for an answer. To end their questions you will do as Brownie did.

Matthew Roberts

Matthew,

So I guess we have to ask ourselves, did Brownie make up all of the story? Some of the story?

I personally know which parts I believe, based on my own research and trips into the mountains. I know that SOME of that story is correct.

Thanks
Travis

 

[Somero]

Matthew,

So I guess we have to ask ourselves, did Brownie make up all of the story? Some of the story?

I personally know which parts I believe, based on my own research and trips into the mountains. I know that SOME of that story is correct.

Thanks
Travis

Basically comes down to what you want to believe based on our own experiences, something like a leap of faith or how we think we would handle ourselves in a similar situation. Some of the accounts about the Dutchman I believe, others i would like to but they just don't have enough evidence to support them or my own experience would tell me it may have happened a different way.

So unless someone comes forward with some good proof that they have found the LDM I'll give it a lookin' into. Of course if it has been found I don't think the person or persons would reveal that they had, first off many would not believe it and would be very critical of any claims, second they may not want the notoriety, third others may persuade them not to reveal it due to the large Dutchman tourist factor and lastly to keep greedy people away, of course there could be any number of other reasons but these just come to mind off hand.

Just my opinion.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I must be the only person who would leave the gold alone and turn the site into the 8th wonder of the world...mono rail from the museum to the mine...coffee shop an lost Dutchman t- shirts..."I saw the mine but all I got was this lousey t-shirt."

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,

So I guess we have to ask ourselves, did Brownie make up all of the story? Some of the story?

I personally know which parts I believe, based on my own research and trips into the mountains. I know that SOME of that story is correct.

Thanks
Travis



Travis,

I have often said I do not believe every word of the Holmes deathbed account. That does not mean the rest of the account is false. Only a fool discounts everything out of hand because a part of something is not correct.

Being hounded by someone for information means nothing to someone who has no information or anything of value to use. Brownie knew well what it was like. Clay knows it well also.

Everyone has to decide at some point what they believe or don't believe about the LDM based on their own knowledge and research and intuition. The thing is, we do not all stand at the same place when it comes to that knowledge and intuition so our conclusions will not always be the same.

If someone says they do not believe the Holmes deathbed account , that is fine, they are entitled to that opinion and to be respected for it. But everyone must understand it is just that, an opinion, the same as those who believe in the account have their opinion. Mindlessly arguing the point is a game for some. Some have even made it their life's work. The best any of us can do is form our opinions, state them civilly and move on. Some cannot do that however, they are terminally stuck and continually argue the issues over and over. When they cannot prove their opinions and get complete approval, they attack the character of those who have the differing opinions.

Posting on the LDM forums can be valuable as a FEW people on them are serious and try to add constructive ideas, theories and opinions in a respectful manner that might be helpful to others. What a serious person needs to do is tune out the trolls, little children and flamers who are constantly starting fights, hijacking threads with off topic posts, attacking other members and promoting themselves as Queen of the May. It's tough but once you learn to ignore them, you actually can learn something here.

Matthew K. Roberts

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Matthew, I have always stated that an unbiased, open forum ?? is the best test of a theory or of your facts. They will quickly attempt to tear it to ribbons. When no one can, you then have a solid basis to continue on.

I personally welcomed intelligent criticsm.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SC, you posted --> and while I am often silly...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You just have to learn to be serious, similar to me. I am always serious, and never divert a forum.
Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I apologize if I am a bit touchy on this subject...since I first came into the "lost Dutchman" forums..i have been...well...less than accepted...
I know I am a strange little person... I do know the southwest...who lived here, when and why...where to camp and where to run for high ground.

I do believe personally, something happened in those mountains ...long enough past that even the apache made mythology from a forgotten event...
I am still searching for that answer...the first part of that answer is the apache were never in those mountains until the comache chased them...
I was not sniping at mr Roberts...just the opposite...I was asking an honest question...I thought...
-30-

 

[cactusjumper]

Matthew,

So I guess we have to ask ourselves, did Brownie make up all of the story? Some of the story?

I personally know which parts I believe, based on my own research and trips into the mountains. I know that SOME of that story is correct.

Thanks
Travis



Travis,

I have often said I do not believe every word of the Holmes deathbed account. That does not mean the rest of the account is false. Only a fool discounts everything out of hand because a part of something is not correct.

Being hounded by someone for information means nothing to someone who has no information or anything of value to use. Brownie knew well what it was like. Clay knows it well also.

Everyone has to decide at some point what they believe or don't believe about the LDM based on their own knowledge and research and intuition. The thing is, we do not all stand at the same place when it comes to that knowledge and intuition so our conclusions will not always be the same.

If someone says they do not believe the Holmes deathbed account , that is fine, they are entitled to that opinion and to be respected for it. But everyone must understand it is just that, an opinion, the same as those who believe in the account have their opinion. Mindlessly arguing the point is a game for some. Some have even made it their life's work. The best any of us can do is form our opinions, state them civilly and move on. Some cannot do that however, they are terminally stuck and continually argue the issues over and over. When they cannot prove their opinions and get complete approval, they attack the character of those who have the differing opinions.

Posting on the LDM forums can be valuable as a FEW people on them are serious and try to add constructive ideas, theories and opinions in a respectful manner that might be helpful to others. What a serious person needs to do is tune out the trolls, little children and flamers who are constantly starting fights, hijacking threads with off topic posts, attacking other members and promoting themselves as Queen of the May. It's tough but once you learn to ignore them, you actually can learn something here.

Matthew K. Roberts

Travis,

Brownie spent a great deal of time in the mountains. What convinces you that parts of his story are true. What makes his story more or less truthful than anyone else's?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Travis,

Brownie spent a great deal of time in the mountains. What convinces you that parts of his story are true. What makes his story more or less truthful than anyone else's?

Joe Ribaudo

Joe

You told me....."Stay away from me".... I took this to mean you were done talking to me also. You'll understand if I don't care to answer your questions anymore.

Everything you've asked above, I have given my opinion on over the last 2 years. Take your own advice and do some research on my old posts if want to know what I think.

TRAVIS CROW

 

[cactusjumper]

Travis,

It's your decision, so do whatever you like. I think I can live without your input.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo