Fighting the State of Florida.

[Peg Leg]

I just received some information that I think EVERYONE on this forum should be aware of.
The Senior Underwater Archaeologist for the Stage of Florida a Mr. Roger Smith has a wife that writes Children's books (K.C. SMITH).
I am told that in her books she Bad Mouths Treasure Hunters. I am trying to get one of her books.
This should NOT be allowed to continue. Yes I know that there is a Freedom of Speech but there is also a Conflick of Interest.
How can a person in his position be allowed to continue in that position. You know that she is voicing HIS THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS.
The worst thing is that she is getting children to dislike Treasure Hunters by saying they are BAD GUYS.
And people wonder why no one can get a permit-here is your answer. This also tells me why Mr. Jeffery Moates has not answered my numerous request for additional information concerning search permit-HIS BOSS TOLD HIM NOT TO ANSWER. It is plain and simple how people in high positions make their own Laws. Mr. Smith does not have the BALLS to speak his mind so he has his wife do it for him.
This is the kind of crap you and I are fighting and losing.
Now some of you wonder WHY I am asking Spains permission to work one of their wrecks ? This should tell you why.
Peg Leg

 

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[mad4wrecks]

Pegleg, so much drama!

I have to disagree with you on several fronts.

First of all, whatever Mrs Smith wishes to write about is her right, whether you agree or not and regardless of what her husband's occupation may be. There is no conflict of interest. An archaeologist (or his wife) publicly speaking out against treasure hunting is not anything new.

Our company (HRD Inc) has had no problems in dealing with Roger Smith or Jeffery Moates at the Florida Division of Historical Resources. In fact, our exploration permit was just made current and we are now awaiting final word from the DEP and Army Corp before continuing searching our lease area off Vero Beach.

As for your ghost ship and your attempts to contact the Kingdom of Spain and the heirs of Cortez, that is all great but in fact, even with their blessings, if your shipwreck lies in submerged Florida bottom lands, you WILL have to deal with the above mentioned 3 agencies. I promise you it will not help your project if you keep blasting these folks (which you have a right to do) in a public forum.

The easist way to defeat your enemy is to make them your friend.

Just my 2 escudos, Tom

 

[ScubaFinder]

Tom, once again you offer some of the best advice. PegLeg, have you considered contacting Mr. Moates and asking him if there is anything you can do to get a search permit so that you can HELP the State locate and recover a ship that possibly has great archeological impact?

I've been discussing our views with a close personal friend who happens to be a certified land archie. When I told him we were looking to fight the current legislation, he laughed and said "NEVER start a fight with a state agency, you will automatically loose because they don't have to take that kind of crap." His words mirrored tom's, in that if you have a site of interest, tell them all you can about it short of the location, and offer the guy in charge first shot at being there when the first investigation is done. Hell offer to take him diving with you after your permit is in place.

These guys live for glory and publicity, not nessecarily because they are glory hounds, but because it validates them to their peers, and makes them seem more worth their salary. He easily admitted that were "bad" ones out there, but felt in general that we all had the same interests in finding and recovering history, we want the money and they want their name on a museum door, the newspaper, research journals, etc.

I've taken the aproach of getting to know an archeaologist, finding out what makes him tick, and figuring ways to get on his good side. There is a chance that he could fill the most important role here in Texas within 5 years or so. guess what, by using a little tact, I'll have the easiest time of anyone in approaching him for a change in policy, and a recovery permit for the Padre Island wrecks. a slight change in your aproach might just make a world of difference in your efforts.

Good luck with the search permit.

Jason

 

[ScubaDude]

Don,
You are beginning to get on my nerves. One day you wish to play pirate and say the hell with the rules, you've got a ghost ship,,,,blah,blah,blah......screw the state.....go pirate movement.

The next week, its AUDIA or whatever LLC wanting to play by the book, asking for money.... meanwhile your continuing to do covert research and tell everyone one the internet what you've found and ask for info on cannons and advice and money, etc.

I must ask a question: Have you ever actually filled for a permit application, or tried to or are you just attacking these people out of some unwarranted fear The longer you wait, the more unethical crap you keep doing, the more BS you listen to the worse it will get. If I were you I'd feel like an ass if I got MARINER to BS whomever he's got, and then get Spain to agree to: but not on paper to whatever that is obviously BS, that can't be put on paper. Then get caught with my pants around my &% and have to explain things. You're deal as I see it involves Spain and that it. Cortes was an explorer for Spain end of story, why was it necessary to involve MARINER and his Cortes dependants, what is that cut, and where did that come from

I was in the exact same boat your in. My state has one person responsible per permitting, between his schedule and mine it will have been months before we meet in person. I've been patient and learned what I could in between. I was surprised today when I was finally able to meet in person with some of the staff, to see that they are in fact human like you and I. That they actually are interested in seeing what is laying about. That they do have a spirit of working with you not against you. I was amazed when I was told that you're (FLA) U/W archaeological head actually came to NC to dive the Queen Anne's Revenge. That impressed me. I learned that little ole NC has about the same resources that FLA does. These are normal people are like everyone else on the planet, they were helpful, kind, and genuinely welcoming to me a TH/history hunter just like them. I had the good fortune of meeting and spending time with the individual who found the last bell off the Queen Anne's Revenge, that it touched them more than anything else in a long career, exactly as you or I would. I can assure you that continue to operate as you have, posting this and that on the web you will get hosed, and denied a permit. If you couldn't trust someone would you work with them Get real.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Jason, way to go with the folks in Texas. The folks up in Austin have made the State of Texas the state with the most restrictive rules (against treasure hunters), in the nation. Your achievements are no small task, and most defiantly set an example for the rest of us.
I have seen the criteria that the state of Florida uses to asses permit request for possible search and recovery leases along the coast of Florida. They will be looking at your experience and expertise, available resources to complete the project, ability to preserve and document following the prescribed rules as described in the State of Florida Cultural Resources Management Standards and Operations Manual (all five modules), track record, and a long list of items that are all designed to protect the historic resources along our coast. While it may appear that they are trying to keep the little independent opperators out of the game, this is not the case.
They can toss your request simply because you don't follow the checklist for filling out the necessary paperwork.
You have two choices if you wish to continue; ONE - Get very smart about all that is required by the state to get what you are after, or TWO - hire experts who have been successful at getting the papers you require. They can do the work with the state for you. However, remember that there are no guarantees.
I have to agree with Tom G. on this, you are never going to be successful if you continue to poke a stick in the eye of the guy who's signature you need at the bottom of a permit.

Good luck!

Tom

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Make that "I have seen the criteria that the state of Florida uses to asses permit request for possible search and recovery leases along the coast of Florida"

I need more coffee!

Thanks J.P.

Tom

 

[Peg Leg]

NC Brad,
The reason that I am covering some many different things is that there are THREE wrecks AND NOT just the GHOST SHIP and all are within 2 miles of each other.
I was informed by Jeffery Moates that he would send me the proper paper work in order to conduct a search upon receiving a FORMAL REQUEST. This he received but then he went silent.

I was doing everything by the BOOK according to what the State asked for. This started over a month ago. Everything was going great UNTIL I asked him to explain how Florida could claim that EVERY ship that was found in Florida waters could be considered as ABANDONED and OWNED by the State of Florida, We were getting along great until that question was asked.

When I offered Memberships in AUDIA RESOURCES I was actually wanting to see who would be interested and since NO ONE responded I decided to cancel the offer.

The three ship:
The GHOST SHIP is the MAIN SHIP.
The 2nd ship is believed to be from the early 1800's
The third ship is nothing but a pile of ballast rocks.
Every ship will require a different approach/
The GHOST SHIP I am planning to raise as complete as I can and I am receiveding information on how this can and should be done from Commercial Salvage companies.
Now to cover my butt I have requested permission from the Cortes Heirs and an applying for permission from the Kingdom of Spain. What would you do IF there were any chance that one or both put a claim of this ship AFTER you had spent a few million dollars in raising this ship. But even before we get this far the State of Florida CLAIMS 100% of everything because they claim this ship is ABANDONED according to the Court in 1987 BUT the 1987 decisions was OVER TURNED in 2000 by a Federal Appeals Court.
I am more than willing to work with the State of Florida if they are willing to work with me. All I have ever asked for is permission to search and recover a single piece of wood so that the ship can be dated.
I honestly believe that this ship has Great Historical value and WILL make history. Of course this is MY belief and until I can prove this NO ONE WILL EVER KNOW FOR SURE.
Why does it appear that NO New permits are being issued for the 1733 wrecks. I think it is because of the 2000 Court decision which is based on the Treaty of 1902.
Peg Leg

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=gdaddyflex
The easist way to defeat your enemy is to make them your friend.
***********
Precisely Tom

Tropical Tramp

 

[ScubaFinder]

Everything was going great UNTIL I asked him to explain how Florida could claim that EVERY ship that was found in Florida waters could be considered as ABANDONED and OWNED by the State of Florida, We were getting along great until that question was asked.

There again Don, that question has the tone of a challenge or an accusation, both of which will get a door slammed in your face at the state level. If you just HAD to know their take on it, I would have said "Man, I think it's great that you guys got FULL jurisdiction over EVERY wreck lying in your waters, and can consider them all to be abandoned. Great Job, how the heck did you pull that off". Now you've engaged his ego, and he'd probably tell you more than he should. I'll try this one more time....TACT TACT TACT! You come across as MAD that they have the right to all wrecks, when in fact if they didn't, we'd all have a much more difficult time getting anywhere. If we the treasure hunters become a pain in their ass, then they will have no reason to even try to support us.

Jason

 

[ScubaDude]

Peg Leg,
File the paperwork and see what they say, quit jumping to conclusions until they really tell you something other than okay.

Brad

 

[stevemc]

Peg Leg, at the turn of the century, big boats were both motor and sail, and mainly heavily built- there was no plywood or fiberglass. There are still hulks of these everywhere. Most have been cut up and scrapped, or just rotted away. In Northern climes, they dont rot as quick and they are all over, you just have to know where to look. I have seen graveyard of these old ships. Mainly sailing boats with huge timbers, and some wooden barges with huge timbers. In Maine and down the coast where water is cold and they dont have toredo clams, there are hundreds of these old boats. Boothbay harbor, Maine has several huge ones that are exposed at low tide. Coney Island creek, just around the tip of Coney island has 20 or so of these and at low tide you would be amazed. I have been bringing boats up and down the East coast and seen all these. In creeks around Chesapeake Bay there are many. I have seen many in Florida, but they are usually flattened out and rotten. If one of these was underwater and fairly deteriorated, it might look to an amatuer as yourself, like a Spanish galleon. Several things would tell you it is not a galleon,or any other 300+ year old ship. First all iron fasteners and parts such as haus pipes, cleats etc in newer ships. Older ships sometimes had lead sheathing-Spanish and English, newer copper and some older did too. I quess you cant tell from that, but the nails that hold it on would tell. Older ships used ballast rocks, newer starting about 1810-1850 they started using iron pigs also in about 1850 switched to copper sheathing, then later an iron keel maybe with lead pigs. There are a lot of different ways to look at and figure out if you have an old ship, which in my opinion yours is a new boat, or it would be gone by now, at least fairly deteriorated. Who know, maybe it is old. Before you do any serious claims, you need to do the research and just look at your "mystery ship", before you start getting upset that they wont send you a certificate letting you work your wreck. They want to know you can and have done all your homework. By showing them that you havent, right off the bat lets them know you cant handle it. Dont get the state involved to the point that it draws attention to others and to the board here. By name calling and complaining and saying they wont do this and that, is just bad news. The last thing you want to do is get the state mad at you. What if you spend a fortune and years trying to get a permit, and get one and pay someone to salvage it, and it is just as I said, a 100 year old, cast off, old working sailboat, that was stripped of everything, and let just rot right where you "discovered" it. Sorry to rant, but you are going about this all wrong, See Ya, Steve.

 

[Darren in NC]

By name calling and complaining and saying they wont do this and that, is just bad news. The last thing you want to do is get the state mad at you.

Good words, Steve. Peg, you get a lot of readership here and a lot of response (which surprises me...in a good way). Please listen to what advice you're getting. The very title of this thread puts you in an adversarial position before you can even make progress. Learn the tact that Jason speaks of. If nothing else, plan the project and let someone else who has better people skills be your spokesperson. It takes teamwork. I think you have good ideas, but you need a good front person to represent your projects. I hope you'll heed the wise counsel given you by those trying to help you.

Godspeed!
Darren

 

[Peg Leg]

You are all correct of course TO A POINT.
I think it best that I turned this project over to someone else who better understands how to deal with the State because I never Kissed anyones butt in my 70 years and I cannot and will not start now.
I also think that there is no more need to discuss this any further-don't you all agree?
Peg Leg

 

[ScubaFinder]

I also think that there is no more need to discuss this any further-don't you all agree?

Nope!

I just wanted to add that making friendly conversation with a person who likely shares a lot of the same ideas, dreams, and desires as yourself, is called being NICE, not kissing butt!

OK, now I'm done...no really, I am

 

[mariner]

If you ask Sea Hunt if they found another Spanish wreck in US waters, whether they would still approach the State for a search/recovery permit, or whether they would keep the location secret and try to make a deal directly with Spain before going to a Federal Court with a salvage claim, I think I know what the answer would be. When they found the Juno after spending 1.5 million in the search, they dealt with Virginia because Virginia said that she had rights to the ship, both because she was abandoned and embedded in Virginia's submerged land. Then when Spain intervened, the Federal Court ruled that Virginia had no claim or authority as far as the Juno was concerned, declared Spain the rightful owner, said Spain had no obligation to accept any offer of salvage from Sea Hunt, and made Sea Hunt hand over the artifacts they had collected with absolutely no compensation. There was never any question of charging SeaHunt with anything in connection with their initial collection of artifacts from the Juno. Indeed, if you are going to file a salvage claim, or even get Spain to take seriously your claim to have found a wreck, you will have to produce hard evidence.

Peg Leg is now in exactly the same situation as Sea Hunt were before they collected their first artifact (assuming he has actually found a wreck) and he has the choice not to make the same mistakes as SeaHunt. If the cannon he is talking about exists, and is effectively at the top of the wreck site, then I think he would be best served to simply recover it, use it to help identify the nature of the wreck, and use it in his negotiations with Spain and/or his salvage claim in the Federal Court. Florida's claim to any rights on this wreck are as ill-founded and unconstitutional as Virginia's were proven to be in the case of the Juno.

That's my opinion, anyway.

Incidentally, Brad, you are dead wrong about Cortes' status as simply an explorer who was acting on behalf of Spain. Cortes and the other early conquistadors, were contracted entrepreneurs when it came to their expeditions. They provided their own financing (Charles V was initially almost penniless, and could not afford in any case to finance all these expeditions. Instead people like Cortes, Valesquez, Pizzaro, de Soto and others had individual contracts with Spain whereby they were given license to explore, conquer and exploit designated areas, in return for which they had to pay the King a certain percentage, usually one fifth, of whatever treasure they managed to accumulate. Even when they were subsequently appointed Governor General of the conquered area, they retained independent status when it came to further expeditions. For example, when Cortes was suspended as Governor General of New Mexico pending investigations into alleged corruption, he continued to organise and operate expeditions such as that which he sent out in 1527 under Saavedra Ceron.

This started to change in 1535 when Spain started to appoint Viceroys, who were the local representatives of the Spanish King, and usually used Government money to finance expeditions, with the profits belonging to Spain.

Of course, the chances of Peg Leg's wreck having been a Cortes ship are very low compared to it having been a Spanish ship (if indeed it is what he thinks it is) are small, but if it is a Cortes ship, then the legal owner is the current heir to Cortes, not Spain, and we will make a deal with him that is mutually satisfactory.

Time will tell, but meanwhile I encourage Peg Leg to focus on a limited number of projects, and not to try to solve all the problems of the world.

Mariner

 

[mad4wrecks]

Mariner, suppose Spain had worked out an agreement with SeaHunt and given their blessings to salvage the Juno, regardless of any division they worked out, SeaHunt next would have been required to deal with the state of Virginia, the DEP and Army Corp of Engineers.

All Spain can do is solve the ownership question and acknowledge the company or individual that has the right to salvage the wreck. To dredge state bottom lands the state, the DEP and the Army Corp will all be involved to some extent.

This will be the same for PegLeg.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Hmmm, isn't it possible that Spain could cut a 50/50 deal with a salvor, and then Florida could use it's existing laws to take it's 20% of your share? Me thinks the day of "budget treasure hunting" may soon be upon us. The percentages that we end up with might not cover a million dollar hunt. I'm thinking paint your lease # on your innertube that floats your hookah, and shore dive with a shovel.

 

[mariner]

Tom,

SeaHunt spent 1.5 million and ended up with nothing. My understanding, from direct conversation with one of the key players, is that if they had taken a different attitude with Spain from the outset, the outcome for them might have been a lot different.

At some stage, they might have had to conform with some State and Corps regulations (remember the issue of whether Mel was damaging sea grass at the Atocha site?) but I think they would have been millions to the good.

Their situation, and Peg Leg's, would be that of an owner whose ship had run aground and was stuck in the mud. As I said in an earlier posting, the State of Florida does not seem to place a great value on not having large holes sunk into their sea bed in a site like Jupiter Inlet. Why would they place a higher environmental value on doing so at Peg Leg's site ?

You know the old joke that ends with the lines "what kind of girl do you think I am?" .... "We have already established that. Now we are just negotiating the price!"

Mariner

 

[Peg Leg]

WOW!
Things appear to be getting serious
Seahunt spent over a million dollars and got nothing in return.
WHEN and not IF I prove there is a ship wreck no matter who the owners may be I plan on raising this little ship (if possible) and then seeing what it was carrying. There is no way any type of archaeological work can be done where it is right now with the vis being 0 and building a coffer dam would require everyone that makes a dollar an hour to have a say and man there would be tons and tons of paperwork involved to please EVERYONE so why not just raise the thing and put in on a barge (if possible) and then study what is there. It would be a lot easier to wash away the mud and silt above the water than to try and remove this mess while still underwater and there would be no fighting the tidal changes.
BUT that is only my opinion.
Peg Leg

 

[Cablava]

Peg

A million $ does not go far in the salvage world, and extracting things from mud is difficult to say the least. I know from experience if you get it wrong you break (snap) a 600,000.00$ crane in the process and that was ten years ago.

Nothing underwater works out cheap if you are recovering whole or any other way for that matter.

I picked up a P3 Orion for your Airforce off Oman in one piece in 1997 the bill was 767,000.00US$ the project took 17 days.

I realise you project is not under time constraints or commercial hound dogs chasing you, but the logistics of lifting things with mud inside them is huge.

When I get my scanner working again I will post a few pics of the crane before and after. And a few pics of the P3 on the barge after it was on the barge. If you fly into Fujeriah airport in the UAE you will see the aircraft being used as the fire drill aircraft.

If you want a large fortune in salvage start with a bigger one.