fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

[diverlynn]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

The fishers DO have rights to all the 1715 fleet, just so you all know. Weather they claim any new wrecks out of their lease areas is anyones guess. This was discussed around the galley table last night.
Diverlynn

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

The fishers DO have rights to all the 1715 fleet, just so you all know. Weather they claim any new wrecks out of their lease areas is anyones guess. This was discussed around the galley table last night.
Diverlynn

Lynn, I must respectively disagree with that statement. While the Fisher organization may own all the 1715 wrecks discovered to date, may be a true statement. There is no legal way that they could own any of the five still unaccounted for ships. Unless they discover them in one of there active search lease locations.
There are several teams actively searching for these ships in there own search leases from the state. Should any one of those teams locate a 1715 wreck in there lease location, the Fisher organization will have no legal claim.

 

[mariner]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

Ivan,

You seem determined to ignore the 1902 Treaty between the US and Spain that was the main element in determining the outcome of the SeaHunt case. The US and Spain both agreed that this Treaty requires a standard of specific abandonment for Spanish ships in US waters. When this treaty was signed, Florida was part of the USA and Florida waters were part of US waters, so the Treaty applies to them. If the wrecks were not abandoned, then they do not comeunder the 1987 ASA and title to them does not devolve to Florida. The wrecks remain the property of the Kingdom of Spain, in the case of State-owned ships.

Diverlynn's view does open a possibility: If she is correct, and I personally do not see how the Fishers can have rights to a wreck located well north of their permit areas, then perhaps Ivan could piggy-back on their permits, and share the benefits with the Fishers. Spain obviously decided not to pursue water that had already passed under the bridge, after the SeaHunt ruling, and try to retrospectively claim any wrecks for which Florida had already issued permits.

I would be interested to know exactly what the Fishers' permit says in respect to the as-yet-undiscovered 1715 wrecks. Can anybody tell us?

Mariner

 

[Blacksheep 6]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

Maaannnnnn...this is gettin' complicated...

 

[ivan salis]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

question did the fishers buy or some how aquire spains "legal" rights to ALL of the 1715 fleet vessels or just SOME OF THEM from spain? if IT IS INDEED ALL OF THEM then they could possibly have a claim as "owners" of said rights---no matter where their found--- however if they only have the rights to the "discovered " or known wrecks which I believe they do via the final court rulings that mel fought so hard for---than a "new" find would not be in their grasp---- it is hard to see how they would get the "legal" salvage rights related to what was unfound wrecks during that time--being to gain salvage rights in those days you first had to find a wreck -and "arrest" it---the 1987 law was put in place basically to "stop" the arresting of wrecks by salvors in federal court ---it was a direct reply to mel's legal victory with the american govt in court---yep it gets twisted indeed ---we seamen have a term we use "sea lawyers"---it not a compliment Ivan

 

[mariner]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

Tom,

I am a little confused as to what you are telling us in the story about Taffi. Do they have the rights as she said, or not. I assume that you and everybody connected with the management of the Vero Beach site must have examined the Fishers' rights in some detail before investing so much time and money in that particular site.

I have asked Pat Cline to confirm the position, but I think you have pretty well got it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Best wishes,

Mariner

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

Taffi Fisher recently told me, in person, that their admirality claim states that they have rights to all of the ships that sailed in the 1715 fleet, "wherever they may lie"

 

[ivan salis]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

if that indeed true ---then it seems me and taffi need to chat then--if fisher does indeed own the "rights" to all the 1715 fleet ships (which they some how aquired from spain)-it could be high profitible for both of us---and I "have" some high important information that she would badly want and need on one of the missing 1715 ships--have her get in touch---we can talk and make a deal----Ivan

 

[rgecy]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

Taffi Fisher recently told me, in person, that their admiralty claim states that they have rights to all of the ships that sailed in the 1715 fleet, "wherever they may lie"

I find this interesting! I know that I brought this up, but I also feel like its an injustice. Its one thing to be able to claim an admiralty on a ship that you have found and located artifacts for! But to be able to claim admiralty on ships that you haven't yet located! Not sure if thats even legal!

I couldn't remember if it was Tom who had mentioned it to me, but I guess that confirms it.

But Ivan, you can also look at it this way. Because they already have the rights, you don't have to worry about Spain. Like you said, you need to be talking with Taffi on this issue.

Robert

 

[ivan salis]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

if that the case indeed that clears my path greatly---if they got the "legal" salvage rights - I know the "where" of the wreck site---its time to go to work ---babby--- ---

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

I don't believe that for a minute. I would have to see a document from the state giving the Fishers, or anyone legal ownership of a wreck not yet found, unless of course Taffi can trace her genealogy back to 1715, and prove that her ancestors owned all of those ships. It has always been my understanding that the basic tenant of shipwreck salvage law, and that includes the State of Florida salvage laws, is that you first have to find the shipwreck. Then you can arrest the wreck and start jumping through all the other legal hoops.

Tom

 

[scottone928]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

One would think that to be the logical sequence wreckdiver, but there are probably a lot of factors here. Let's start with politics. The Fishers are very rich and connected in this field, period! No doubt they have contributed to the right people. That is the way business is done. I work in a field where I deal with the EPA and DEP and let me tell you I know what I am talking about. Just remember what is right does not always prevail unfortunately!

 

[paddy.mick]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at l

Let's don't get weird now, conspiracy and money is one way to do it, but Taffi and crew are good people.

The legal standing is that the Fishers beat the state out of court for all they had arrested previously to the ASA; but they don't have claims to anything outside those areas. Several guys have contracts with the state to work sites-sites they likely think are other 1715 wrecks.

Ivan-if you have something you think is worth looking at, you should apply with the state to work it- or hire someone to or...hell, dig it up and go to Gibralter
Paddy

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

I have a great deal of respect for the Fisher organization, and all that Mel and his family have done over the years in the State of Florida. I do not think they would do anything that is not considered above board and legal. However, I also have a good grasp of the rules concerning salvage within Florida waters, and if the second hand information that I am reading in this thread is correct, it has surly has to be in writing from the state of Florida. While I will stipulate that the Fisher organization could have made a deal with the state concerning the 5 missing ships of the 1715 Fleet, I would also find it difficult to swallow this line based on any one just saying it is so.

I will not be convinced that this is the case until I see an agreement between the State and the Fishers. I have read the lease agreements that they have for some of the 1715 wrecks that they are working, and there is no mention of the missing ships.

This almost sounds reminiscent of a few unnamed people posting that it is illegal to take a metal detector into the water anyplace in Florida waters. Well that turned out to be misinformation designed to keep independent treasure hunters out of the water.
Trust me, I will dig up the answer to this question as well, and let everyone know the results.

Tom

 

[ivan salis]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

Ivan here---I am a researcher ---plain and simply put--my lungs are shot (so I can not "dive" ---asbestos from too many years spent working on old rust buckets ) and I do not have the "tools" and man power to salvage it myself--what I do have however is smarts ---I am a good person at researching things and once I latch on to something I "hunt" it down and find out "all" about it---My rather odd blend of being a coming from a family that for just about 200 years were sea going men --my fathers side--(I'm the "last" one of a dying breed----AMERICAN SEAMEN) and my own 27 years spent aboard ships---gives me a great "inside" knowledge of the way seaman think and talk and of their traditions and ways of doing things----during my many years at sea "boredom" was a constant foe---and so I read --oh boy did I read---but not junk---real books --about navigation,history and such ---I often went to areas were to "get" along with the locals ---knowing how to speak the "local" lingo was a plus --(shows "respect" to them in their eyes) often it was spanish and once in awhile french (good thing I "had" to take them in high school)---the were others of course---so I learned "speak" spanish fairly well by interacting with the locals and slowly learn to "read" modern spanish via the local papers and horse racing programs---after learning to read & "think" in modern spanish --I tackled the old spanish stuff----like a modern english person reading shakespeare's lines --its a bit well "clunky" but can be done --you just have to "focus"" on it ---so thru my research thru many old forgotten documents and maps by weaving to many scattered bits of information to gether --I have found myself a shipwreck---from before nov of 1769 accordong to the maps I have and in the area where two highly relible sources from 1715--one spanish --the orher english --say a that a "large" ship went down

 

[rgecy]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

Ivan,

I will be in Sebastian tomorrow and should be able to meet with Bill Moore and Taffi. Without going into any detail and of course not mentioning your name, I will see what I can come up with. I am sure they will point me in the right direction if they don't have documented proof in hand.

I have to agree with Tom on how the State of Florida handles these issues and how admiralty rights work. Typically you have to find the wreck first before you can claim it. But I have to say, since this was an entire fleet, they may have been able to claim all the fleet under the one admiralty! Stranger things have happened. I haven't had a chance to look up the specifics through the court documents, but I will see what I can dig up this week.

Robert

 

[ivan salis]

Re: fla state archies types finally going to talk with me--about my "find" at long

robert feel free to tell them my name--pm me and I'll give you my phone # where they call talk to me--if they would like--