Good stuff today

tamrock · Sep 2, 2020

I went to this thrift store yesterday, because it was senior discount Tuesday. Found nothing. Then today as I was waiting at a stoplight at the intersection of were this trift store is at, I said to myself naa, I ain't gonna go in there, cuz yesterday they had nothing. As I was coming to the entrance to the parking lot a car slowed way down to turn into the thrift store and I was saying to myself c'mon lady, get in there as there was traffic in the other lane and I couldn't whip around her and then I said awe what the heck and followed the slow poke in, as I thought I might get lucky because they put new goods out. The first thing that looked silver was this Scandinavian 83% silver spoon set and I thought lucky me and then thought well I better slow down and look high and low and found some weighted sterling. All and all for $24.94 with tax. I really like the spoons and the hanger is also hallmarked the same as the spoon. The others stuff I'll add to the smash stash.

There I weighed them and all together 112 grams. Now they're on the wall. It amazes me this set stayed all together for me to find all taped up in a thrift store.

Red-Coat · Sep 2, 2020

Good score on the silver. In case you haven’t traced the spoon maker, they’re from Thorvald Marthinsen Sølvvarefabrik, established in Tonsberg, Norway in 1883 and in full-scale industrial factory production (as opposed to workshop) from 1907. I’ve seen the pattern described as ‘Viking’ and also as ‘Pattern #299’. Earlier half of the 1900s probably.

tamrock · Sep 2, 2020

No red coat I didn't look it up, as its now faster with you on board and I sure appreciate all your knowledge and help. I've been saving the good silver for awhile now and scraping the not so beautiful and weighted items. Now that your with us, I have these casted gold wash sterling candlesticks that have a moto, VINCTUS NON VICTUS on each. I had a fella at Cowans Auction House look at them and he was certain they were English 1750, but the maker I'm not so sure on either. One fella told me he believed the moto was that of the Galways of Ireland. Here's the pictures from an old post. Together they weigh 746 grams.

Red-Coat · Sep 3, 2020

Wow Tamrock! That’s a stunning pair of candlesticks. London Sterling hallmarks for 1750:

The maker is Simon Jouet (registered February 1748) and he was known for specialising in candlesticks. Here’s your mark, with a known Jouet mark alongside it for comparison:

Here’s an identical pair that sold recently, although the price isn’t given:
https://marycooke.co.uk/a-fine-pair-of-george-ii-cast-candlesticks-made-in-london-in

Another pair, but dated 1753, sold at Bonhams in London in 2008 for £3,960 ($5,250) including buyer’s premium. Bonhams’ premium is 27.5% on the first £2,500 of the hammer price and then 25% on the amount above £2,500. You can do the math(s) yourself… HaHa.

I can’t pin down the family crest and motto. There are multiple possibilities, none of which seem to be an exact match for the Vinctus Non Victus motto on garter enclosing a lion passant. Note that the Mary Cooke offering linked above also has two family crests, one of which is a lion passant. These things are not uncommon on ‘family silver’ but don’t usually have much impact on value, even if traced. The exception is that sometimes there can be interest from present-day family members such that, if well advertised, an auction price can be forced up by competitive bidding from someone who really wants the items.

What does affect the value is, of course, condition. The Bonhams price referenced above was for a pair in pretty much pristine condition. Yours look as if they have been through the wars. I would say that the cost of professional cleaning and restoration (including a replacement drip pan if you don’t have that missing piece) would be outweighed by the improvement in value… although they still won’t achieve the Bonhams price.

Hope that helps.

tamrock · Sep 3, 2020

Red-Coat said:
Wow Tamrock! That’s a stunning pair of candlesticks. London Sterling hallmarks for 1750:

View attachment 1860806
View attachment 1860807

The maker is Simon Jouet (registered February 1748) and he was known for specialising in candlesticks. Here’s your mark, with a known Jouet mark alongside it for comparison:

View attachment 1860808

Here’s an identical pair that sold recently, although the price isn’t given:
https://marycooke.co.uk/a-fine-pair-of-george-ii-cast-candlesticks-made-in-london-in
View attachment 1860809

Another pair, but dated 1753, sold at Bonhams in London in 2008 for £3,960 ($5,250) including buyer’s premium. Bonhams’ premium is 27.5% on the first £2,500 of the hammer price and then 25% on the amount above £2,500. You can do the math(s) yourself… HaHa.

I can’t pin down the family crest and motto. There are multiple possibilities, none of which seem to be an exact match for the Vinctus Non Victus motto on garter enclosing a lion passant. Note that the Mary Cooke offering linked above also has two family crests, one of which is a lion passant. These things are not uncommon on ‘family silver’ but don’t usually have much impact on value, even if traced. The exception is that sometimes there can be interest from present-day family members such that, if well advertised, an auction price can be forced up by competitive bidding from someone who really wants the items.

What does affect the value is, of course, condition. The Bonhams price referenced above was for a pair in pretty much pristine condition. Yours look as if they have been through the wars. I would say that the cost of professional cleaning and restoration (including a replacement drip pan if you don’t have that missing piece) would be outweighed by the improvement in value… although they still won’t achieve the Bonhams price.

Hope that helps.

Awesome Red Coat, that definitely the smith and indeed they have been around for many wars and have listened in on many discussions of wars by those who lite the darkness with them, sure wish they could tell me what all they've heard in the 270 years they've been in on people's conversations. it amazing how something as these ends up a thrift store. I made no attempt to clean them as I'm thinking that would destroy what's left of the gold-wash thats hasnt hasn't been leached away. I did have a pretty talented silversmith look at duplicating the drip pan or nozzle as it's often called. He said the pan part, based on the other was casted and the flange was fashioned from sheet silver, but producing a gold-wash as it was originally done by burning off gold mercury amalgamation wasn't impossible, but who would really wanna do that.

Red-Coat · Sep 3, 2020

You're welcome Tamrock.

You shouldn’t take advice from an amateur such as me, but my personal opinion would be this.

The candlesticks currently have a ‘below-market’ value because one of them is incomplete and they both have some damage. That value-assessment applies whether they are sold to a purist silver collector, or to someone who wants to appreciate them as decorative objets-d’art. Sympathetic restoration would improve their value. Selling them as ‘restored’ narrows down their desirability for purist collectors but increases their desirability for decorative use.

It seems that Jouet also sold candlesticks like this without any gold wash and it was common practice for period makers to offer a choice. I would wager that there are plenty of candlesticks kicking around which were once gold-washed, but have completely lost their gilding through a couple of hundred years of enthusiastic polishing and are sold simply as ‘silver’. As decorative items, they have a higher desirability if completely stripped back to silver, rather than being patchy. Re-gilding them using modern techniques is then a matter of choice. They would become more extensively ‘restored’ in the view of a purist collector, but potentially more attractive as decorative items (although many people prefer silver to gold when it comes to home décor).

Just my opinion... but you’re right in seeking professional advice.

tamrock · Sep 3, 2020

What's funny Red Coat, is when I had the appraiser, who at the time was with Cowans Auction Co.look at them https://www.cowanauctions.com/, I put the nozzle in my pocket and he gave his assessment, not at all mentioning anything as to the pair being incomplete. It was when I pulled out the one and only nozzle and placed it on one of the sticks his face went from looking rather pleased about them to one of looking concerned over an issue of only having one nozzle. I thought that was kinda funny.

He appraised the pair at maybe $900. to as high as $1000. and that's been maybe 5 years ago. Its so nice now to identify the maker, as I was coming up with a possible other silversmith who's mark looked somewhat similar, but I was unconvinced because it wasn't spot on as the one you've provided. Thanks again.

Beachkid23 · Sep 4, 2020

That spoon rack with all the spoons in an awesome piece! Congrats!

tamrock · Sep 5, 2020

Beachkid23 said:
That spoon rack with all the spoons in an awesome piece! Congrats!

Yeah its a nice little find. I scrapped the two weighted candle sticks and the compote is made by Gorham and has a small weighted base, but the bowl is seemingly thicker than others if seen. Also its inscribed to a person who achieved 10 years at Bankers Trust Co. which doesn't add anything to the value, so it may just get crushed.