GPZ 7000 Successor, March 9th boys…. Apply for those second mortgages…

[geowizard]

AI- Driven Ground balancing;

As Jen mentioned in her first post on this topic, the GPZ 8000 has AI- Driven Ground Balancing. It's really adaptive compensation for magnetic mineralization in soils. One of the little known causes of signal loss in Metal Detectors is the effect of variation in magnetic mineralization on the inductance of the coil. An Iron Core increases inductance of a coil. Magnetic mineralization is the same as adding an Iron core to the coil. An increase in inductance, increases Inductive reactance and reduces current flow! That results in lower transmitter power and lower signal response. The effect of magnetic mineralization varies with almost every sweep of the Metal detector across the ground.

The solution employed in the GPZ 8000 was to add a monitor to regulate the current. As mentioned previously on other posts, this is referred to as Constant Current PI or CCPI.

Is it AI?

- Geowizard

 

[Jennifer-007]

The Randy Clarkson Report;

https://www.westcoastplacer.com/Files/Clarkson1990.pdf

- Geowizard

I know it well, have you seen the UBC study report, if not, let me know, I’ll get you a copy. Here’s a copy….. as well as his radio tracer study. Also another good sluice box performance report…

 

[Jennifer-007]

AI- Driven Ground balancing;

The solution employed in the GPZ 8000 was to add a monitor to regulate the current. As mentioned previously on other posts, this is referred to as Constant Current PI or CCPI.

Is it AI?

- Geowizard

Please tell me the monitor is at least an HDMI connection, not DVI. 😜 (just kidding)

 

[geowizard]

My Hero!

Having participated in the Heathkit generation and growing up in DIY electronics along with kit building, I began a career in post secondary education as an electronics instructor. Robotics was the thing! I became a Robotics instructor. Fortunately, the school had ordered a Heathkit Hero Robot about the time Heathkit was going down the tube and Heathkit could not fulfill the order!

Jumping at the opportunity, I suggested to the powers that be, the students could make TWO HERO robot clones as a class project and have Robot competitions! I had already shown the class how to make a 24 bit parallel I/O interface for the Radio Shack Color Computer (Coco). We made a sheet metal enclosure, mounted the coco, mounted two hand-held Skill drill motors with lawn mower wheels, a floating third wheel, Battery pack, stepper driven 360 degree optical sensor (a poor mans lidar), With directional control and vision, the HERO Clone could be programmed to go almost anywhere! Fun stuff!

- Geowizard

 

[Carl-NC]

The solution employed in the GPZ 8000 was to add a monitor to regulate the current. As mentioned previously on other posts, this is referred to as Constant Current PI or CCPI.

That's not what CCPI refers to. CCPI is a technique whereby the PI current is rapidly flat-topped and held constant. If it is constant then dB/dt=0 and you can sample during this time even though the coil might still be pumping, say, an amp of current.

A feedback loop to regulate the peak current is often done to compensate for ground effects, but not really for depth. Even severe ground will shift the inductance by only 1% and you would never notice the depth difference a 1% change causes. But in CCPI it can cause a tilt error in the flat-topping and that can be a problem as dB/dt is no longer zero. That's why ML added a feedback loop. Same thing was on the 7000. You can also do this on monopolar PI and even VLF, both of which have been done in the past, for different reasons.

 

[geowizard]

The first paragraph was using your "CCPI" implication of Constant Current as is used in active transmission.

The second paragraph is related to ZVT (Zero Voltage Transmission) as explained by Bruce Candy in his patent on the topic. Note modulation is done by modulation of time.

20180106925 page 15

[0153] The current during the zero voltage period 263 can be controlled by another feedback loop, a third negative feedback control electronics including amplifier 183, which includes components to set the stability of negative feedback, which measures the transmit coil current during the zero voltage period 263, and an output 184 of the amplifier 183 can control the timing of, say, time 211 (period 264), or 212 (period 264 and period 265), or 214 (period 265, and period 266), or time 217 (period 266 and the period 267), or time 219 (period 267 and the high-voltage period 262), so as to maintain the current, during the zero-voltage period (263), to be zero.
[0154] These times will be modulated slightly as the inductance of the transmit coil is modulated by the magnetic susceptibility of magnetically mineralized soils as the transmit coil is moved over such soils. Alternatively, a negative feedback loop may control output voltages of power source/s.


[0162] Referring to FIG. 9, the high voltage period 282 commences at time 230 and terminates at time 231 during which the voltage switched to the transmit coil is the first voltage 232. An output impedance of the transmit electronics to the transmit coil is low at least after the transition 231 of the voltage 232 to zero voltage 233 in response to the switches selecting the first voltage 232 switched to the transmit coil followed by the switches selecting zero volts 233 switched to the transmit coil.
The zero voltage period 283 commences at time 231 and terminates at time 234 during which the voltage switched to the transmit coil is zero volts 233, and during this period the current through the transmit coil is substantially zero...
See attachment for images. I hope this helps!

- Geowizard

 

[DizzyDigger]

A feedback loop to regulate the peak current is often done to compensate for ground effects, but not really for depth. Even severe ground will shift the inductance by only 1% and you would never notice the depth difference a 1% change causes. But in CCPI it can cause a tilt error in the flat-topping and that can be a problem as dB/dt is no longer zero. That's why ML added a feedback loop. Same thing was on the 7000. You can also do this on monopolar PI and even VLF, both of which have been done in the past, for different reasons.

Carl, since 99% of us have no clue about what you and Geo are debating, could you
tell us, in English, what performance factor it is you are discussing? Is it about the
ability (or lack thereof) for the 8000 to detect a nugget on the surface?

 

[Jennifer-007]

I have that Nugget Finder 25” DD coil, it’s awesome, great to see it do so well…. Nope, no 8000 in my future, loving my 4500 and 5000.
Jen

 

[geowizard]

Carl, since 99% of us have no clue about what you and Geo are debating, could you
tell us, in English, what performance factor it is you are discussing? Is it about the
ability (or lack thereof) for the 8000 to detect a nugget on the surface?

Mike,

If I May reply to your question with an apology;

Because the latest-greatest detectors are seen to have flaws, end users are sometimes expecting something more and become disenchanted when the new stuff falls short. My point of view is that there are improvements that require trade-offs. You get more of "this" in exchange for less of "that". I want to share with others the fact there are reasons for those apparent short falls. The GPZ 8000 is a design that is improved in many ways. It should be expected that there may be trade-offs. Translating to English is a challenge for those "skilled in the art" because the bits and pieces all have names and uses that are hard to describe in laymen English. I apologize for that.

There is debate on the causes and effects of changes in a new product! It requires a "deep dive" into the nuts and bolts. Yes, the language used lately is related to the best understanding we can get on why the small "sunbaker" nuggets sometimes escape detection. Suffice it to say, it was a trade-off.

Regulatory agencies (FCC)) control power output of metal detectors. The laws of Physics are not always in our favor. It's a tight space for metal detectors to fit into when you consider a marketplace that has an appetite for deeper, faster, lighter, cheaper! To top it off, the market wants it now!

Thanks for your patience!

- Geowizard

 

[Carl-NC]

The first paragraph was using your "CCPI" implication of Constant Current as is used in active transmission.

The second paragraph is related to ZVT (Zero Voltage Transmission) as explained by Bruce Candy in his patent on the topic. Note modulation is done by modulation of time.

<stuff snipped>

See attachment for images. I hope this helps!

Wiz, I don't think you understand any of this patent and you're just posting AI nonsense, and AI doesn't understand it, either. Simple question:

• Which of the waveforms in that patent are CCPI? (Or, which apply to the 7k and 8k?)

I suggest you ditch the AI analysis and read the patent for yourself. But to understand it, you'll need a pretty deep knowledge of PI technology.

 

[Carl-NC]

Carl, since 99% of us have no clue about what you and Geo are debating, could you
tell us, in English, what performance factor it is you are discussing? Is it about the
ability (or lack thereof) for the 8000 to detect a nugget on the surface?

It started with post #14 whereby an 8k user couldn't detect a surface 0.3g nugget. Unfortunately, a lot of comments have attempted to explain the problem with Really Bad Information generated by AI. Personally, I don't like Really Bad Information left unchallenged because it gets propagated and becomes fact, like FBS using 28 frequencies. In post #85 I proposed a few possibilities but without more information I have no idea which is right (maybe none of them). But I do know Really Bad Information when I see it, so that is what's going on. It really should be in the Tech forum but it ended up here.

 

[geowizard]

Note to all,

My knowledge on the GPZ 8000 and its issues is based on patent info. I have provided patent numbers and references to those that know. There's no debate on the facts. As far as I'm concerned there's no debate!

I tried to take the tech discussion to the tech forum and Carl brought it back here.

My only effort is to share an inside view of a new detector. It has nuances that make it special. I personally plan on buying three to take to my project in Alaska. I need detectors and people that like shiney and know how to use a metal detector!

- Geowizard

 

[Carl-NC]

There's no debate on the facts.

True, if you were posting facts. Feel free to respond on the Tech forum.

 

[Jennifer-007]

I tried to take the tech discussion to the tech forum and Carl brought it back here.

- Geowizard

Thank you Carl (admins) as the creator of the thread I’d appreciate it not being moved simply because a commenter thinks it should be somewhere else without seeking my input. If an admin moves it that’s one thing but on multiple occasions now I’ve had people who got into heated discussions want to move MY entire thread to other forums, if I’d wanted it there, I’d have posted it there. On one thread discussion mentioned permitting laws and all of a sudden I was being told it should have been in the legal forum… sheeessh, are you all OCD or something. I’m not sure why people feel the need to compartmentalize an entire thread simply because it gets slightly technical. It I appreciate your common sense Carl and admins.

Keep up the technical talk guys, it’s all good info, be it from personal experiences or from the parents… it all adds to the discussion.

If by “taking the discussion to the tech forum” you meant, just leaving this discussion and starting a new thread there to discuss the topic, please disregard. 😉

Jen

 

[Carl-NC]

Personally, I thought the nitty-gritty talk about how the 8k works and the analyses of patents was a bit off-topic to the original intent of the thread. Most people aren't all that interested in stuff like that. But it's your thread, I'll follow your lead.

 

[Jennifer-007]

Personally, I thought the nitty-gritty talk about how the 8k works and the analyses of patents was a bit off-topic to the original intent of the thread. Most people aren't all that interested in stuff like that. But it's your thread, I'll follow your lead.

I find your input very informative and beneficial to the entire thread, which really doesn’t have an intended topic intent to begin with, it’s a free for all as long as it’s related in some way to the 8000 as far as I’m concerned, feel free to take it any direction you wish. I’m not one of those “Stop hijacking my thread” type 😉 PS, it’s ‘our’ thread, I’m only the original creator, I chose that word intentionally. 🩷

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Thank you Carl (admins) as the creator of the thread I’d appreciate it not being moved simply because a commenter thinks it should be somewhere else without seeking my input. If an admin moves it that’s one thing but on multiple occasions now I’ve had people who got into heated discussions want to move MY entire thread to other forums, if I’d wanted it there, I’d have posted it there. On one thread discussion mentioned permitting laws and all of a sudden I was being told it should have been in the legal forum… sheeessh, are you all OCD or something. I’m not sure why people feel the need to compartmentalize an entire thread simply because it gets slightly technical. It I appreciate your common sense Carl and admins.

Keep up the technical talk guys, it’s all good info, be it from personal experiences or from the parents… it all adds to the discussion.

If by “taking the discussion to the tech forum” you meant, just leaving this discussion and starting a new thread there to discuss the topic, please disregard. 😉

Jen

Jen, thread not being moved, this is Minelab forum, your thread is fine here.

 

[Jennifer-007]

Jen, thread not being moved, this is Minelab forum, your thread is fine here.

Thank you kind sir…

 

[Jennifer-007]

 

[Tesorodeoro]

Us “Regular Folks” are mildly interested in this 3-way pissing contest.

What I want to know from experts is why can’t a detector be built that is BOTH VLF AND PI. I want to throw a switch and go back and forth. After all - the electronics mostly fit inside a letter sized envelope these days and are manufactured in third world countries for pennies on the dollar.

That would likely highjack the wizzing though and I do not want to be responsible for doing that.