GPZ 7000 Successor, March 9th boys…. Apply for those second mortgages…

[Jennifer-007]

Jen,

You are a most generous hostess. Thanks for allowing this deep dive into the GPZ 8000. You must be in the land down-under!

- Geowizard

Not a worry fine sir. 😉

Nope, I use to live in Australia and go back regularly to nugget hunt but I’m in the land of Meep Meeps, Joshua Trees and Calichi false bedrock (AZ).

 

[Carl-NC]

There’s a lot of white space under your statement, where’s the rest of your reply? 😉 Please feel free to rip my post to shreds, I have no problem with it, you are probably right, it won’t hurt my feelings, but don’t just say it’s wrong and not provide your “correct” answers…. Me personally, I’m gonna go outside, life’s too short, I’m not going to find any gold sitting here on the internet debating about how it works when I could be out watching it do it (and getting the yummy nuggies).

There's a lot of wrong to unpack. But here goes:

• VLF and PI machines speak two completely different electrical languages. Same language, different accents.
• A VLF detector transmits a continuous, alternating sine wave into the ground. Not necessarily. MF designs (even in SF modes) transmit ramps or ramplets, not sine waves. All you need is dB/dt.
• It relies on a delicate "induction balance" between the transmit and receive coils. PI can easily use this kind of coil as well, and often does.
• PI operates in the Time Domain: A PI detector does not use a continuous wave. CCPI (as in the GPZ 7k/8k) uses a continuous wave.
• Instead, it fires massive, high-voltage bursts (pulses) of direct current into the ground, causing a magnetic field that abruptly collapses. High voltage bursts of direct current? That doesn't even make sense. And most PI designs don't fire pulses of direct current at all. They generate an increasing current that is then abruptly terminated.
• It punches through highly mineralized soil by simply waiting for the ground signal to dissipate before listening for the metal, but because of this, it has exceptionally poor discrimination. Only the simplest ferrite soils will dissipate fast enough to see the target. Viscous soils (as found in practically all gold fields) take far longer to dissipate so other methods are used to null the ground response.
• Coil Incompatibility: VLF coils require a perfectly tuned "null" (balance) between the transmit and receive windings to measure microscopic phase shifts in the soil. First, VLF doesn't measure "microscopic" phase shifts. The phase shifts are quite large. Second, there's nothing incompatible with IB coils and PI; Minelab for years has made PI detectors that can use DD coils.
• PI coils are essentially brute-force electromagnets designed to handle massive, high-voltage flyback spikes. While you have to design the coil to handle the flyback, the same coil would then easily work in a VLF system.
• Firing a PI high-voltage pulse through a hybrid coil assembly would instantaneously overload, saturate, and likely fry the highly sensitive, perfectly balanced receiver circuitry required for VLF. This is absolutely false. There is little difference in VLF and PI receiver circuitry.
• Signal Blinding: You cannot run both systems simultaneously. The continuous transmission of a VLF sine wave would completely blind the silent "listening" phase that a PI machine desperately needs to measure target decay. Conversely, the massive electrical spikes of the PI pulse would completely disrupt the VLF's continuous induction balance. This is also false. I have personally run VLF and PI simultaneously and it works just fine.
• Power and Weight Limits: PI machines require substantial battery power to generate high-current pulses, making them notoriously heavy and power-hungry. Modern VLF machines require complex, fast microprocessors to analyze multiple frequencies simultaneously. Combining both the raw power generation of PI and the heavy processing of VLF would result in an expensive, battery-draining machine that is simply too heavy to swing comfortably for more than a few minutes. Again, completely false. PI machines already use high horsepower micros; ferinstance the 7k uses a SmartFusion 2 chip. Plus there is little difference in micro horsepower requirements between VLF (especially MF) and PI. Finally, energy recycling (such as on the 7k/8k and Axiom) have reduced PI power requirements.

Bottom line is, there is far more sharable tech between VLF and PI than not. The biggest element that differentiates the two is the transmitter. And several people (including me) have demonstrated transmitters that can do both VLF and PI, either separately or at the same time.

 

[Jennifer-007]

There's a lot of wrong to unpack. But here goes:

• VLF and PI machines speak two completely different electrical languages. Same language, different accents.
• A VLF detector transmits a continuous, alternating sine wave into the ground. Not necessarily. MF designs (even in SF modes) transmit ramps or ramplets, not sine waves. All you need is dB/dt.
• It relies on a delicate "induction balance" between the transmit and receive coils. PI can easily use this kind of coil as well, and often does.
• PI operates in the Time Domain: A PI detector does not use a continuous wave. CCPI (as in the GPZ 7k/8k) uses a continuous wave.
• Instead, it fires massive, high-voltage bursts (pulses) of direct current into the ground, causing a magnetic field that abruptly collapses. High voltage bursts of direct current? That doesn't even make sense. And most PI designs don't fire pulses of direct current at all. They generate an increasing current that is then abruptly terminated.
• It punches through highly mineralized soil by simply waiting for the ground signal to dissipate before listening for the metal, but because of this, it has exceptionally poor discrimination. Only the simplest ferrite soils will dissipate fast enough to see the target. Viscous soils (as found in practically all gold fields) take far longer to dissipate so other methods are used to null the ground response.
• Coil Incompatibility: VLF coils require a perfectly tuned "null" (balance) between the transmit and receive windings to measure microscopic phase shifts in the soil. First, VLF doesn't measure "microscopic" phase shifts. The phase shifts are quite large. Second, there's nothing incompatible with IB coils and PI; Minelab for years has made PI detectors that can use DD coils.
• PI coils are essentially brute-force electromagnets designed to handle massive, high-voltage flyback spikes. While you have to design the coil to handle the flyback, the same coil would then easily work in a VLF system.
• Firing a PI high-voltage pulse through a hybrid coil assembly would instantaneously overload, saturate, and likely fry the highly sensitive, perfectly balanced receiver circuitry required for VLF. This is absolutely false. There is little difference in VLF and PI receiver circuitry.
• Signal Blinding: You cannot run both systems simultaneously. The continuous transmission of a VLF sine wave would completely blind the silent "listening" phase that a PI machine desperately needs to measure target decay. Conversely, the massive electrical spikes of the PI pulse would completely disrupt the VLF's continuous induction balance. This is also false. I have personally run VLF and PI simultaneously and it works just fine.
• Power and Weight Limits: PI machines require substantial battery power to generate high-current pulses, making them notoriously heavy and power-hungry. Modern VLF machines require complex, fast microprocessors to analyze multiple frequencies simultaneously. Combining both the raw power generation of PI and the heavy processing of VLF would result in an expensive, battery-draining machine that is simply too heavy to swing comfortably for more than a few minutes. Again, completely false. PI machines already use high horsepower micros; ferinstance the 7k uses a SmartFusion 2 chip. Plus there is little difference in micro horsepower requirements between VLF (especially MF) and PI. Finally, energy recycling (such as on the 7k/8k and Axiom) have reduced PI power requirements.

Bottom line is, there is far more sharable tech between VLF and PI than not. The biggest element that differentiates the two is the transmitter. And several people (including me) have demonstrated transmitters that can do both VLF and PI, either separately or at the same.

👍 Thanks for taking the time to comment…

 

[geowizard]

Not a worry fine sir. 😉

Nope, I use to live in Australia and go back regularly to nugget hunt but I’m in the land of Meep Meeps, Joshua Trees and Calichi false bedrock (AZ).

View attachment 2249811

View attachment 2249813

Ahh... yes, Caliche;

I'm surrounded by Caliche here, east of Tucson. Some of the old silver mines used tailings for ballast to make railroads to smelters. I have seen some nice Silver nuggies others have found!

- Geowizard

 

[Tesorodeoro]

I’ve never owned a Whites nor have I ever stated I ran one, perhaps you are thinking of someone else.

My mistake

 

[geowizard]

Thinking outside the box Part III;

We can think outside the box while residing inside the box!

In the modern age of cyberspace, we can access knowledge our forefathers never had access to.

On the subject of "pulses", the GPZ 8000 is a pulse generator. PI detectors in general have this one thing in common. So, here we sit in our box and we can think outside the box. Most metal detector owners are familiar with the car they own. Unless it's a pedal powered bicycle, it uses high voltage pulses! I have attached a block diagram of the most probable circuit used in the GPZ 8000. The date is coincidental with the probable date of early prototype testing of the GPZ 8000 and getting the green light for production. It shows the circuit as "blocks" with connections between the blocks. The largest block is the "controller"

 

[geowizard]

The GPZ 8000 may be a second cut of a Next Gen Metal Detector. With a controller having sufficient speed and on board resources in the form of RAM, ROM, TIMERS, Analog to Digital Converters and Digital Input/Output. The Next Gen detector is the proverbial "end of the road". PI metal detectors have a common design. What you see here is what you get in every contemporary design!

Where's the Beef?

The "Beef" is in the Firmware/Software. The GPZ 8000 becomes a Universal platform having constant hardware! Realistically, it can be programmed with almost any pulse train over any cycle having the same or different periods with the same or different pulse heights and signal processing. It can become adaptive to all conditions. It may be reprogrammable! The software is secure. Hardware can be reverse engineered by those unscrupulous types. The meat and potatoes are embedded in firmware aka software that isn't soft that resides inside the black box controller(s).

The GPZ 9000 could be a software upgrade. Upgrade to what? Fifty options could be offered by Minelab on the same platform. The coil contains a processor. The coil processor can switch programmable Gain Amplifiers, filters and reactive components that change frequency response to many different operating frequencies. It could switch from Pulse Induction to VLF or Both. or more!
Ask me how!

- Geowizard

 

[Tesorodeoro]

The GPZ 8000 may be a second cut of a Next Gen Metal Detector. With a controller having sufficient speed and on board resources in the form of RAM, ROM, TIMERS, Analog to Digital Converters and Digital Input/Output. The Next Gen detector is the proverbial "end of the road". PI metal detectors have a common design. What you see here is what you get in every contemporary design!

Where's the Beef?

The "Beef" is in the Firmware/Software. The GPZ 8000 becomes a Universal platform having constant hardware! Realistically, it can be programmed with almost any pulse train over any cycle having the same or different periods with the same or different pulse heights and signal processing. It can become adaptive to all conditions. It may be reprogrammable! The software is secure. Hardware can be reverse engineered by those unscrupulous types. The meat and potatoes are embedded in firmware aka software that isn't soft that resides inside the black box controller(s).

The GPZ 9000 could be a software upgrade. Upgrade to what? Fifty options could be offered by Minelab on the same platform. The coil contains a processor. The coil processor can switch programmable Gain Amplifiers, filters and reactive components that change frequency response to many different operating frequencies. It could switch from Pulse Induction to VLF or Both. or more!
Ask me how!

- Geowizard

Well that would be an advancement. From an end users perspective it would seem a major advantage would be better discrimination capabilities, not to mention sensitivity to shallow small gold.

 

[Jennifer-007]

My mistake

All good, no problem, I thought I was wrong once but I as mistaken.

 

[Jennifer-007]

Ahh... yes, Caliche;

I'm surrounded by Caliche here, east of Tucson. Some of the old silver mines used tailings for ballast to make railroads to smelters. I have seen some nice Silver nuggies others have found!

- Geowizard

Heck, isn't the entire town of Bisbee a huge talings pile. LOL My entire 65 acres has calichi within 3 or 4' of the surface, it's why I sold my 7000, it was just overkill, all I was doing was over saturating the ground.

 

[geowizard]

Heck, isn't the entire town of Bisbee a huge talings pile. LOL My entire 65 acres has calichi within 3 or 4' of the surface, it's why I sold my 7000, it was just overkill, all I was doing was over saturating the ground.

Perfect lead-in;

The tailing piles extend for several miles east of Bisbee into the Warren Gold Mining District. Driving in from the east and through the round-about a visitor has to be amazed at the mineralization as seen in the infinite hues of red, orange, yellow, green, and blue. Taking the right to the north, the lavender pit for the uninitiated is a deep open pit that you might inadvertently almost drive into if distracted Old Bisbee is a sight to behold. Known for "Bisbee Blue" turquoise, this gemmy turquoise is highly sought after. I recommend the underground Queen Tunnel tour.

In PI metal detectors, I learned that alternate pulses balance the effect of saturating the ground. Bisbee is a good example of why one detector fits all has to be "all inclusive". Going from tooth paste quality, pure as the driven snow, limestone (Calcium Carbonate) to high grade copper ore in a rich matrix of magnetic and non magnetic mineralization represents a test of skill for most. Copper is a noble metal. There are native copper nuggets and native silver with Gold nuggets mixed in with iron and mining related cultural artifacts, old worn out work boots, etc. A VLF (fdem) detector with discrimination is the tool of choice. Old work boots with all of the brass grommets and lacing hooks will have an otherwise normal human digging like a dog after a bone!

- Geowizard

 

[geowizard]

With reference to sheet 0,

There are eight switches. These are switches that can be opened or closed by the controller. The switches 57, 58, 59 and 60 are called an H bridge and they switch the flow of current through the transmitter coil 51. Diagonal closed switches reverse the flow of current making positive and negative pulses. The software is simple. The software uses instructions to tell the switches to turn "on" or "off" and wait for a specified time between switching. Four other switches control two things. Two switches control the voltage and two switches turn the transmitter on and off to break contacts before making contact avoiding spikes. That's a total of eight switches. The receiver coil is listening at a specified time after the pulses.

- Geowizard

 

[Carl-NC]

Thinking out of the box happens in steps. The first step is getting out of the box.

I would say the first step is to understand the box you're in. If you don't, then you can't design inside the box, much less outside the box.

Don Lancaster ( RIP) contributed much more than words can explain.

Magic sinewaves (from pulses)

You brought this up, then said nothing about it. How would you use magic sinewaves in a metal detector? Under what situations?

 

[Tesorodeoro]

Perfect lead-in;

The tailing piles extend for several miles east of Bisbee into the Warren Gold Mining District. Driving in from the east and through the round-about a visitor has to be amazed at the mineralization as seen in the infinite hues of red, orange, yellow, green, and blue. Taking the right to the north, the lavender pit for the uninitiated is a deep open pit that you might inadvertently almost drive into if distracted Old Bisbee is a sight to behold. Known for "Bisbee Blue" turquoise, this gemmy turquoise is highly sought after. I recommend the underground Queen Tunnel tour.

In PI metal detectors, I learned that alternate pulses balance the effect of saturating the ground. Bisbee is a good example of why one detector fits all has to be "all inclusive". Going from tooth paste quality, pure as the driven snow, limestone (Calcium Carbonate) to high grade copper ore in a rich matrix of magnetic and non magnetic mineralization represents a test of skill for most. Copper is a noble metal. There are native copper nuggets and native silver with Gold nuggets mixed in with iron and mining related cultural artifacts, old worn out work boots, etc. A VLF (fdem) detector with discrimination is the tool of choice. Old work boots with all of the brass grommets and lacing hooks will have an otherwise normal human digging like a dog after a bone!

- Geowizard

Doesn’t take Brass grommets I’m afraid. The 6000 PI will have you digging a 2 foot deep hole, over a coil wide for a single wire from a wire brush..maybe a very small boot tack. Many retired folks lose interest due to the physical effort to dig and recover micro iron junk much less fill their holes. Straight facts.

 

[geowizard]

Doesn’t take Brass grommets I’m afraid. The 6000 PI will have you digging a 2 foot deep hole, over a coil wide for a single wire from a wire brush..maybe a very small boot tack. Many retired folks lose interest due to the physical effort to dig and recover micro iron junk much less fill their holes. Straight facts.

Don't be afraid. There have never been wire brushes where I detect.

Thanks for the advice.

- Geowizard

 

[geowizard]

Belgian Malinois;



- Geowizard

 

[Assembler]

Belgian Malinois;



- Geowizard

One can conclude that the dog responds to both Dutch waves and natures waves.
The challenging of assumptions and exploring unconventional solutions comes to mind here as a possible "Box" that many may face.

How about waves that are created by repeating long sequences of ones and zeros?
These can get created from ordinary but extremely carefully chosen digitally switched pulses.
Could this be outside of the "Box"?

 

[Assembler]

Don't be afraid. There have never been wire brushes where I detect.

Thanks for the advice.

- Geowizard

Even if there is a lot of iron of a given size one can adjust the null point for the background iron. Most will give up at this if the iron is bad enough.

 

[Assembler]

Thinking outside the box Part III;

We can think outside the box while residing inside the box!

In the modern age of cyberspace, we can access knowledge our forefathers never had access to.

On the subject of "pulses", the GPZ 8000 is a pulse generator. PI detectors in general have this one thing in common. So, here we sit in our box and we can think outside the box. Most metal detector owners are familiar with the car they own. Unless it's a pedal powered bicycle, it uses high voltage pulses! I have attached a block diagram of the most probable circuit used in the GPZ 8000. The date is coincidental with the probable date of early prototype testing of the GPZ 8000 and getting the green light for production. It shows the circuit as "blocks" with connections between the blocks. The largest block is the "controller"

A program that is triggered by a given wave size of one's and zeroes for a pulse generator is what the "Box" is designed for. A program that is designed for in your given ground area from the preset program could be useful up to the limits of the machine and coil.

 

[Jennifer-007]

I have that Nugget Finder 25” DD coil, it’s awesome, great to see it do so well…. Nope, no 8000 in my future, loving my 4500 and 5000.
Jen

Part 2