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GPZ 7000 Successor, March 9th boys…. Apply for those second mortgages…

Us “Regular Folks” are mildly interested in this 3-way pissing contest.

What I want to know from experts is why can’t a detector be built that is BOTH VLF AND PI. I want to throw a switch and go back and forth. After all - the electronics mostly fit inside a letter sized envelope these days and are manufactured in third world countries for pennies on the dollar.

That would likely highjack the wizzing though and I do not want to be responsible for doing that.
You may not be 'Highjack the wizzing through' due to the fact of a third mortgage could be taken out for such a dual VLF and PI metal detector............. :laughing7: :hello::icon_scratch:::)
Interesting idea though.
 
You may not be 'Highjack the wizzing through' due to the fact of a third mortgage could be taken out for such a dual VLF and PI metal detector............. :laughing7: :hello::icon_scratch:::)
Interesting idea though.
Anyone that has operated either tech has thought the exact same thing! Maybe this is more of a Tech forum question and Elvis has already left the building.
 
Anyone that has operated either tech has thought the exact same thing! Maybe this is more of a Tech forum question and Elvis has already left the building.
Perhaps one can fix two detectors together with the switching of the power to get the same end result without a third mortgage taken out.
This would not involve a tech question elsewhere to be posted.

Don't recall Elvis using a metal detector though........... :laughing7: :dontknow::cat:
 
Perhaps one can fix two detectors together with the switching of the power to get the same end result without a third mortgage taken out.
This would not involve a tech question elsewhere to be posted.

Don't recall Elvis using a metal detector though........... :laughing7: :dontknow::cat:
You would think for $13,000 someone could make that profitable.
 
You would think for $13,000 someone could make that profitable.
Well, the demand is not as high as many people would think. With that being said, perhaps a local shop can be used with skilled people to help one fit any brand and price point detectors together in a nice package?
My guess is well below $8,000 price point is a good starting point all off of the shelf brand new.
 
Anyone that has operated either tech has thought the exact same thing! Maybe this is more of a Tech forum question and Elvis has already left the building.
The evidence shows that there are still many people singing / swooning about this detector, so Elvis has not left the area yet.
All Elvis has to do is attach a coil on the end of the microphone stand for the 'second mortgages' will start to flow.......... :laughing7: :hello2::icon_scratch:

I recall singing about a "Hound dog" and nothing about technology questions.
By the way have Elvis swing a second detector coil right behind you to pick up what you have missed will answer some questions about the need for a 'second mortgage' to be taken out.........:laughing7::headbang::tongue3:
 
Thinking out of the box;

Fdem, aka VLF is used in the world of Geophysics where systems start in 10's of thousands of dollars. It is not necessary that the systems cost that much. From a parts, materials and labor point of view, the cost is less than $1000. The cost comes in the form of licensing patents that control certain aspects of the technology. Because of the problems with access to designs protected by patents, new creations have to explore new technology using OLD concepts.

AFMAG;

The method of Audio Frequency Magnetics uses natural pulses.

Got pulses? :dontknow:

The pulses come from lightning! Lightning generates millions of volts and millions of watts of EMF. There are lightning storms happening all over the planet. The system is elegant in design. A receiver receives pulses from all of the lightning strikes from all over the world similar to an AM transistor radio. Eddy currents are induced in receivers. Nuggets are receivers and eddy currents are transmitters. Eddy currents are proportional to conductivity. All you need is a loop, a receiver and a display.

eLORAN:

LORAN stands for Long Range Navigation. The transmitters are located around the world. The system was used in early VLF metal detecting. It is still used in Geophysics. You need a loop, a receiver and a display.

Many forms of natural and man made transmitters are all around us. 🤔

- Geowizard
 
Thinking out of the box;

Fdem, aka VLF is used in the world of Geophysics where systems start in 10's of thousands of dollars. It is not necessary that the systems cost that much. From a parts, materials and labor point of view, the cost is less than $1000. The cost comes in the form of licensing patents that control certain aspects of the technology. Because of the problems with access to designs protected by patents, new creations have to explore a new technology.

AFMAG;

The method of Audio Frequency Magnetics uses pulses.

Got pulses? :dontknow:

The pulses come from lightning! Lightning generates millions of volts and millions of watts of EMF. There are lightning storms happening all over the planet. The system is elegant in design. A receiver receives pulses from all of the lightning strikes from all over the world similar to an AM transistor radio. Eddy currents are induced in receivers. Nuggets are receivers and eddy currents are transmitters. Eddy currents are proportional to conductivity. All you need is a loop, a receiver and a display.

eLORAN:

LORAN stands for Long Range Navigation. The transmitters are located around the world. The system was used in early VLF metal detecting. It is still used in Geophysics. You need a loop, a receiver and a display.

Many forms of natural and man made transmitters are all around us. 🤔

- Geowizard
With the idea of thinking outside of the box. China is currently using way more power than the USA. technology for a power pulse of some type to detect way deeper with likely bad side effects for nature. So, the idea of pulses is being experimented with deeper results as an end result.
Perhaps this can also happen on a much smaller scale setup without getting into much new technology?

Like you're thinking outside of the box.......:headbang::notworthy:
 
What I want to know from experts is why can’t a detector be built that is BOTH VLF AND PI.
It can be, and has been. At White's I developed what was basically a combined MXT and SurfPI, where it could be run in VLF or PI but not at the same time. It fell by the wayside due to more pressing developments. I also developed a truncated half sine design (US9285496) which produces VLF and PI responses at the same time. I had a swinging prototype of that one, but left the company in mid stream. No one picked it up and finished it. Another guy on the Geotech forums has modified a CCPI transmitter (e.g. GPZ) to run in VLF mode.
 
It can be, and has been. At White's I developed what was basically a combined MXT and SurfPI, where it could be run in VLF or PI but not at the same time. It fell by the wayside due to more pressing developments. I also developed a truncated half sine design (US9285496) which produces VLF and PI responses at the same time. I had a swinging prototype of that one, but left the company in mid stream. No one picked it up and finished it. Another guy on the Geotech forums has modified a CCPI transmitter (e.g. GPZ) to run in VLF mode.
No surprise to some active in the field that this concept would at least be played with. I can see the lack of market for such a detector ending with falling to the wayside.
Thanks for pointing this out for less tech inclined people.
 
Maybe this is more of a Tech forum question
Hahahah ah here we go again… move it to the tech forum… you guys crack me up… are the bits and bytes in the tech forum datacenter cheaper to lease or something? 🤭 The discussion is happy right here where it is, no need to move it anywhere, all info is good info, I’m not charging extra in this thread if you use different words or go off topic a bit.
 
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What I want to know from experts is why can’t a detector be built that is BOTH VLF AND PI. I want to throw a switch and go back and forth.
The reason no company has released a true combination Pulse Induction (PI) and Very Low Frequency (VLF) metal detector comes down to a clash of fundamental physics, insurmountable engineering hurdles, and practical limitations regarding weight and power.

To understand why they can't be easily combined, it helps to look at how entirely different their operating environments are.

1. The Physics: Time Domain vs. Frequency Domain

VLF and PI machines speak two completely different electrical languages.

• VLF operates in the Frequency Domain: A VLF detector transmits a continuous, alternating sine wave into the ground. It relies on a delicate "induction balance" between the transmit and receive coils. The machine analyzes the phase shift of the continuous return signal to determine what the target is (giving VLF its excellent discrimination) and to ignore ground minerals.

• PI operates in the Time Domain: A PI detector does not use a continuous wave. Instead, it fires massive, high-voltage bursts (pulses) of direct current into the ground, causing a magnetic field that abruptly collapses. The machine then shuts off the transmitter and silently "listens" for the time delay (decay rate) of the eddy currents collapsing in the target. It punches through highly mineralized soil by simply waiting for the ground signal to dissipate before listening for the metal, but because of this, it has exceptionally poor discrimination.

2. Engineering Contradictions

Trying to put both of these technologies into a single coil and control box creates a nightmare for engineers.

• Coil Incompatibility: VLF coils require a perfectly tuned "null" (balance) between the transmit and receive windings to measure microscopic phase shifts in the soil. PI coils are essentially brute-force electromagnets designed to handle massive, high-voltage flyback spikes. Firing a PI high-voltage pulse through a hybrid coil assembly would instantaneously overload, saturate, and likely fry the highly sensitive, perfectly balanced receiver circuitry required for VLF.

• Signal Blinding: You cannot run both systems simultaneously. The continuous transmission of a VLF sine wave would completely blind the silent "listening" phase that a PI machine desperately needs to measure target decay. Conversely, the massive electrical spikes of the PI pulse would completely disrupt the VLF's continuous induction balance.

• Power and Weight Limits: PI machines require substantial battery power to generate high-current pulses, making them notoriously heavy and power-hungry. Modern VLF machines require complex, fast microprocessors to analyze multiple frequencies simultaneously. Combining both the raw power generation of PI and the heavy processing of VLF would result in an expensive, battery-draining machine that is simply too heavy to swing comfortably for more than a few minutes.

3. The "Hybrid" Compromises (what you asked about)

While a true 1:1 dual-circuit machine doesn't exist, engineers have developed technologies that attempt to bridge the gap between VLF discrimination and PI depth:

• Minelab’s ZVT (Zero Voltage Transmission): Found in the GPZ 7000, ZVT creates ultra-constant, high-power opposite-polarity magnetic fields. It behaves somewhat like a continuous wave but provides PI-level depth and immunity to mineralized ground (though it still lacks true VLF-style discrimination).

• Tarsacci MDT (Mixed Domain Technology): The MDT 8000 transmits a continuous wave (like VLF) but processes the return signal mathematically in the time domain (like PI). It is a clever software bridge rather than a true dual-hardware machine, offering a mix of PI performance and VLF discrimination in highly mineralized or salty environments.

Ultimately, physics dictates that a detector is either highly sensitive to phase shifts (VLF) or highly sensitive to decay times (PI). Trying to build a "jack of all trades" machine that does both perfectly would currently result in a detector that is a master of neither.
 
I hope all those reasons were AI-generated because they include a lot of Really Bad Information.
 
It can be, and has been. At White's I developed what was basically a combined MXT and SurfPI, where it could be run in VLF or PI but not at the same time. It fell by the wayside due to more pressing developments. I also developed a truncated half sine design (US9285496) which produces VLF and PI responses at the same time. I had a swinging prototype of that one, but left the company in mid stream. No one picked it up and finished it. Another guy on the Geotech forums has modified a CCPI transmitter (e.g. GPZ) to run in VLF mode.
Could it use the same coil? Special hybrid coil of some sort?
 
Modern VLF designs have moved to low inductance coils which is what PI has always used, so it's not difficult to design a coil that will work for both.
 
Thinking out of the box: (Part II)

Thinking out of the box happens in steps. The first step is getting out of the box. Every point has a counter-point. If we are to get out of the box, we have to focus on getting out of the box, not a meaningless debate on semantics, nature, and the price of tea in the China.

The GPZ 8000 is a Next Gen machine! I'm not buying or selling anything. Setting the mood for getting out of the box is seeing the unseen. I cite a previous post:


Watch it ten times if you need to. For the nay-sayers, lets assume it's all fake sound on sound and video editing bologna. To think out of the box, we, collectively have to get our heads out of the box. Bouncing around in the box contributes net zero. Points and counter-points result in net zero. The past is no forecast of the future. The GPZ 8000 is our forecast of the future. Understanding the rock and roll going on inside gives us a front row seat into the future.

Don Lancaster ( RIP) contributed much more than words can explain.

Magic sinewaves (from pulses)


Stick around for Part III.

- Geowizard
 
I hope all those reasons were AI-generated because they include a lot of Really Bad Information.
There’s a lot of white space under your statement, where’s the rest of your reply? 😉 Please feel free to rip my post to shreds, I have no problem with it, you are probably right, it won’t hurt my feelings, but don’t just say it’s wrong and not provide your “correct” answers…. Me personally, I’m gonna go outside, life’s too short, I’m not going to find any gold sitting here on the internet debating about how it works when I could be out watching it do it (and getting the yummy nuggies).

Jen
 
The reason no company has released a true combination Pulse Induction (PI) and Very Low Frequency (VLF) metal detector comes down to a clash of fundamental physics, insurmountable engineering hurdles, and practical limitations regarding weight and power.

To understand why they can't be easily combined, it helps to look at how entirely different their operating environments are.

1. The Physics: Time Domain vs. Frequency Domain

VLF and PI machines speak two completely different electrical languages.

• VLF operates in the Frequency Domain: A VLF detector transmits a continuous, alternating sine wave into the ground. It relies on a delicate "induction balance" between the transmit and receive coils. The machine analyzes the phase shift of the continuous return signal to determine what the target is (giving VLF its excellent discrimination) and to ignore ground minerals.

• PI operates in the Time Domain: A PI detector does not use a continuous wave. Instead, it fires massive, high-voltage bursts (pulses) of direct current into the ground, causing a magnetic field that abruptly collapses. The machine then shuts off the transmitter and silently "listens" for the time delay (decay rate) of the eddy currents collapsing in the target. It punches through highly mineralized soil by simply waiting for the ground signal to dissipate before listening for the metal, but because of this, it has exceptionally poor discrimination.

2. Engineering Contradictions

Trying to put both of these technologies into a single coil and control box creates a nightmare for engineers.

• Coil Incompatibility: VLF coils require a perfectly tuned "null" (balance) between the transmit and receive windings to measure microscopic phase shifts in the soil. PI coils are essentially brute-force electromagnets designed to handle massive, high-voltage flyback spikes. Firing a PI high-voltage pulse through a hybrid coil assembly would instantaneously overload, saturate, and likely fry the highly sensitive, perfectly balanced receiver circuitry required for VLF.

• Signal Blinding: You cannot run both systems simultaneously. The continuous transmission of a VLF sine wave would completely blind the silent "listening" phase that a PI machine desperately needs to measure target decay. Conversely, the massive electrical spikes of the PI pulse would completely disrupt the VLF's continuous induction balance.

• Power and Weight Limits: PI machines require substantial battery power to generate high-current pulses, making them notoriously heavy and power-hungry. Modern VLF machines require complex, fast microprocessors to analyze multiple frequencies simultaneously. Combining both the raw power generation of PI and the heavy processing of VLF would result in an expensive, battery-draining machine that is simply too heavy to swing comfortably for more than a few minutes.

3. The "Hybrid" Compromises (what you asked about)

While a true 1:1 dual-circuit machine doesn't exist, engineers have developed technologies that attempt to bridge the gap between VLF discrimination and PI depth:

• Minelab’s ZVT (Zero Voltage Transmission): Found in the GPZ 7000, ZVT creates ultra-constant, high-power opposite-polarity magnetic fields. It behaves somewhat like a continuous wave but provides PI-level depth and immunity to mineralized ground (though it still lacks true VLF-style discrimination).

• Tarsacci MDT (Mixed Domain Technology): The MDT 8000 transmits a continuous wave (like VLF) but processes the return signal mathematically in the time domain (like PI). It is a clever software bridge rather than a true dual-hardware machine, offering a mix of PI performance and VLF discrimination in highly mineralized or salty environments.

Ultimately, physics dictates that a detector is either highly sensitive to phase shifts (VLF) or highly sensitive to decay times (PI). Trying to build a "jack of all trades" machine that does both perfectly would currently result in a detector that is a master of neither.
Now you said you ran an old whites detector back in the day. I know for a fact they were heavy and akward. Today’s detectors seem like they have to add weights to make them feel like you’re actually getting something for your money. Feather light - most of them. I said I wanted to flick a switch and go back and forth between modes. The coils seems like it might be an issue.
 
There’s a lot of white space under your statement, where’s the rest of your reply? 😉 Please feel free to rip my post to shreds, I have no problem with it, you are probably right, it won’t hurt my feelings, but don’t just say it’s wrong and not provide your “correct” answers…. Me personally, I’m gonna go outside, life’s too short, I’m not going to find any gold sitting here on the internet debating about how it works when I could be out watching it do it (and getting the yummy nuggies).

Jen
Jen,

You are a most generous hostess. Thanks for allowing this deep dive into the GPZ 8000. You must be in the land down-under! :dontknow:

- Geowizard
 
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Now you said you ran an old whites detector back in the day.
I’ve never owned a Whites nor have I ever stated I ran one, perhaps you are thinking of someone else.
 

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