I Can Not Believe This! New Info

Goodyguy · Feb 10, 2009

Here is the response I received from the Mayors office concerning metal detecting in city parks in Louisville:

Dear Mr. ,

Mayor Abramson has received your e-mail.

Metro Parks is researching issues surrounding metal detecting in our
public parks, and a new policy will be forthcoming.

It appears that state and national parks have banned the practice, and
with good reason. Digging holes in parks is not something we can
condone, and the removal of artifacts is prohibited by state laws
dealing with objects of antiquity. We understand that many people
operate metal detectors without the intent of causing harm, but it seems
that the best way to protect valuable public assets (both the parks and
the artifacts they contain) will be to follow the approach already taken
by state and national parks, which is to prohibit the practice except in
cases where a permit has been issued for research purposes by the state
archaeologist, with all artifacts being turned over to Metro Parks or
the state archaeologist, as appropriate.

Thank you for taking the time to write.

*Here is the latest New Info*

Policy on Use of Metal Detectors in Louisville/Jefferson County Metro Parks

The mission of Metro Parks includes “protecting these lands and resources for future generations.” In fulfillment of mission, it is the policy of Metro Parks to prohibit removal of any cultural objects of an archeological, historical, or antiquarian nature.
It is our policy to regard such cultural objects as the property of all the people of the Commonwealth and to regard the appropriation of such cultural objects by individuals as inappropriate and criminal.

The Kentucky Revised Statutes, Chapter 164, Sections 705 through 735, lay out the policies of the Commonwealth with regard to the preservation of antiquities, clarify the application of these policies to the political subdivisions and municipalities of the Commonwealth, and require a permit issued by the State Archeologist to explore, excavate, appropriate or remove objects of antiquity from the public lands of the Commonwealth including those of its political subdivisions.

There being no reliable method to predict whether an object located by a metal detector is an object of antiquity, until it is excavated, Metro Parks prohibits the private use of metal detectors on the lands under its management.

Metro Parks will authorize the use of metal detectors for certain public purposes: by utility company employees and contractors to locate underground utilities; by department staff to locate survey pins, irrigation pipes and other metal objects pertaining to the work of the department; by law enforcement personnel in performance of their responsibilities.

Tom_in_CA · Feb 10, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

What the heck does "state laws" have to do with city level laws? SO WHAT if a certain state has state-park laws about a certain thing. City level laws can allow or disallow things differently if they want to, right? Ie.: some parks have dog leash laws, and others allow them off leash. Some parks close at 8pm, and others close "at sunset". Some parks do not allow mountain biking off trails, and others allow it. So in the same way, lots (most all) city level parks have nothing at all addressing the issue, and simply don't care, don't disallow detecting, etc... Yet the state those cities are in, may in fact have something about the subject. That does NOT mean the individual cities in that state have to go by the state level park rules. Every park has varying rules that don't necessarily apply to a park directly across the street! :icon_scratch:

I'll tell you why I think they made a reference to the higher state rules: because government entities borrow wording back & forth from each other. So when there's a dearth of wording, or a void or question to be filled, it is not uncommon for the govt. agency in question to look at neighboring cities, their state, etc... and borrow wording and logic from other like-institutions. For example: when a city gets ready to figure out what they're going to pay their police, their mayor, etc... how do they arrive at a "fair" rate of pay? By simply seeing what other cities are paying their cops! It's the same thing going on here.

What I want to know, is how did this whole thing there start? Apparently detecting has gone on in the parks there with no rules for 30 or 40 years, right? Why did it all of the sudden come on to some bureaucrats radar as something to address?

The best bet to keep this from happening to other cities, is to keep it off their radar. Let it be something that never occurs to them. Something they never need "to address". Don't leave holes. Pick a different park if you see gardeners working at wherever you're at. Go at low traffic times. Don't do deep targets if you feel like a busy-body is watching you. And finally, don't go asking at city hall "can I metal detect?" (that only invites someone to address your pressing issue). Instead, look it up yourself (available @ city websites key-word searches usually). If it is silent on the issue, go, and just be discreet. Like picking your nose: just be discreet, and no one cares (till you ask).

jeff of pa · Feb 10, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

Unfortunately if you get Knowledge of this to
the State Level or worse the National Level
Via CNN Or FOX With word of a Law Suit,

Other areas will think about doing it to.

Keep the Antiquities Law Buried from the Majority of Lawmakers.

Ignorance is Bliss

Goodyguy · Feb 10, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

Tom_in_CA said:
What I want to know, is how did this whole thing there start? Apparently detecting has gone on in the parks there with no rules for 30 or 40 years, right? Why did it all of the sudden come on to some bureaucrats radar as something to address?

From what I understand it was set in motion because of a complaint by an elderly lady who got together with some of her friends one of whom had connections in high places and pressure was put on the head of the city parks department to do something about those people digging holes all over the parks.

After that members of the Louisville MD club started being kicked out of the parks by park workers.
This had been going on for almost a year when questions as to the legality of such a ban was addressed by the Md'ers to the city hall and after much runaround by the city on this issue now here we are.

SHERMANVILLE ILLINOIS · Feb 10, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

Yes,

COMING TO A PARK NEAR YOU >:(

I am ready to become a :icon_pirat:

all have a good un..........
SHERMANVILLE

pro778 · Feb 10, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

Tom_in_CA said:
What the heck does "state laws" have to do with city level laws? SO WHAT if a certain state has state-park laws about a certain thing. City level laws can allow or disallow things differently if they want to, right? Ie.: some parks have dog leash laws, and others allow them off leash. Some parks close at 8pm, and others close "at sunset". Some parks do not allow mountain biking off trails, and others allow it. So in the same way, lots (most all) city level parks have nothing at all addressing the issue, and simply don't care, don't disallow detecting, etc... Yet the state those cities are in, may in fact have something about the subject. That does NOT mean the individual cities in that state have to go by the state level park rules. Every park has varying rules that don't necessarily apply to a park directly across the street!

I'll tell you why I think they made a reference to the higher state rules: because government entities borrow wording back & forth from each other. So when there's a dearth of wording, or a void or question to be filled, it is not uncommon for the govt. agency in question to look at neighboring cities, their state, etc... and borrow wording and logic from other like-institutions. For example: when a city gets ready to figure out what they're going to pay their police, their mayor, etc... how do they arrive at a "fair" rate of pay? By simply seeing what other cities are paying their cops! It's the same thing going on here.

What I want to know, is how did this whole thing there start? Apparently detecting has gone on in the parks there with no rules for 30 or 40 years, right? Why did it all of the sudden come on to some bureaucrats radar as something to address?

The best bet to keep this from happening to other cities, is to keep it off their radar. Let it be something that never occurs to them. Something they never need "to address". Don't leave holes. Pick a different park if you see gardeners working at wherever you're at. Go at low traffic times. Don't do deep targets if you feel like a busy-body is watching you. And finally, don't go asking at city hall "can I metal detect?" (that only invites someone to address your pressing issue). Instead, look it up yourself (available @ city websites key-word searches usually). If it is silent on the issue, go, and just be discreet. Like picking your nose: just be discreet, and no one cares (till you ask).

Great advice! This has been discused a lot lately. There has been a lot of good advice about not stirring the pot, but people just have to keep asking permission. I don't think you should go on private property without permission, but public area's are a different story. Don't people realize the problems they're creating for everyone. I've seen more and more posts about detecting being banned. We're doing it to ourselves. People digging big holes and not covering them and people feeling guilty about using a public area, are going to kill it for everyone. I've never seen one post about anyone getting arrested for hunting a park. Why do people feel the need to ask for permission all the time?

Goodyguy · Feb 10, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

NO ONE ASKED FOR PERMISSION!
It started out from complaints by concerned citizens.
Please read my statement from above.

Buddy~

jeff of pa · Feb 10, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

Goodyguy said:
NO ONE ASKED FOR PERMISSION!
It started out from complaints by concerned citizens.
Please read my statement from above.

Buddy~

Yes it is a Double edged Sword.

If you don't do it to yourself,
Some Jealous Busybody will try and do it to you.

Best thing to do is be Overly Friendly to the people around you.

If asked to leave, Do so with a friendly Smile.

& Hope for the best they are not Backstabbers also.

Goodyguy · Feb 10, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

jeff of pa said:
Goodyguy said:

NO ONE ASKED FOR PERMISSION!
It started out from complaints by concerned citizens.
Please read my statement from above.

Buddy~

Click to expand...

Yes it is a Double edged Sword.

If you don't do it to yourself,
Some Jealous Busybody will try and do it to you.

Best thing to do is be Overly Friendly to the people around you.

If asked to leave, Do so with a friendly Smile.

& Hope for the best that they are not Backstabbers also.

I believe you are correct Jeff. When the MD'er was first approached by the citizen about his digging, even though she was very hateful toward him, more care should have been used in addressing her concerns.

Of course hindsight is always 20/20.

We should always be on the ready to be a good ambassador for our hobby no matter what.
I have also been informed that the parks department supervisor was in favor of a ban anyway.

Tom_in_CA · Feb 10, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

Goodguy, you say (and I quote, with your caps): "NO ONE ASKED FOR PERMISSION!"

But then your turn around and say (and I quote):

" ..... questions as to the legality of such a ban was addressed by the Md'ers to the city hall"

So at some point, someone got booted. They "took their concerns" (whether you call that asking for permission, etc... I guess is a matter of semantics) to city hall. That's the murky point.

Let me give you an example: In my city, I ONE TIME (in 35+ yrs.) got told "scram" by a gardener. When I asked "why?" he said "because the dept. head said to shoo away md'rs 'cuz they leave holes". When I pointed out to the guy that I don't leave holes (I pointed around me and challenged him to find a single hole in the 20 places I'd been), he agreed that it obviously wasn't me who was the problem. However, he still had to do his job. But then, with a wink, he says "I get off in 30 minutes, and whatever I don't see, doesn't bother me". Naturally we waited 30 minutes, and resumed hunting.

Now figure this: If I'd taken that attempted booting, and challenged city hall, what do you think would've happened? Instead, by just being more discreet, I avoid all such busy-bodies, and prevent an actual rule from being written.

nova treasure · Feb 10, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

I personally think that you must find a different approach to gain the parks side of this. As a Metal detecting club maybe you could get with the local paper and find a way to introduce the clubs as a Public Friend to the parks and share historical reference of different finds and offer lost and found items or something that will peak the public interest and hope they side with you. I guess it all depends on how much Park Detecting means to a person and how far they want to go to keep the opportunity.
It's ashame that We have to go out of are way to keep our privilege's to detect a public place,but once a law is passed it will be gone for good.

Nova Treasure

done dug it all up · Feb 10, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

Not to much in the way of "Antiquities" left in those parks anyhow, I'm sure. :wink:

jorge del norte · Feb 10, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

just go hunt anyway :icon_pirat:

......just park in a easy to get to place for the get away.......seriously just use the common sense approach.......off hours.....weekends.......no talking back if questioned, just leave............but it's best to avoid peak hours anyway.....I'm with Tom_in_CA on this subject.......by doing the nonconfrontational approach I have had over a year with no run-ins........

Goodyguy · Feb 10, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

Tom_in_CA said:
Goodguy, you say (and I quote, with your caps): "NO ONE ASKED FOR PERMISSION!"

But then your turn around and say (and I quote):

" ..... questions as to the legality of such a ban was addressed by the Md'ers to the city hall"

So at some point, someone got booted. They "took their concerns" (whether you call that asking for permission, etc... I guess is a matter of semantics) to city hall. That's the murky point.

Let me give you an example: In my city, I ONE TIME (in 35+ yrs.) got told "scram" by a gardener. When I asked "why?" he said "because the dept. head said to shoo away md'rs 'cuz they leave holes". When I pointed out to the guy that I don't leave holes (I pointed around me and challenged him to find a single hole in the 20 places I'd been), he agreed that it obviously wasn't me who was the problem. However, he still had to do his job. But then, with a wink, he says "I get off in 30 minutes, and whatever I don't see, doesn't bother me". Naturally we waited 30 minutes, and resumed hunting.

Now figure this: If I'd taken that attempted booting, and challenged city hall, what do you think would've happened? Instead, by just being more discreet, I avoid all such busy-bodies, and prevent an actual rule from being written.

Tom I get what you are saying.
However, these guys and others were getting booted and threatened with arrest almost every time they detected for nearly a year before going to city hall to question the legality of the ban.

They were not asking permission they were trying to fight injustice.

If it only happened once or twice or even three times over a period of years and at only one or two parks then no big deal. but this was almost every single time all over the city. and after the second time of being caught by the same parks guys things were starting to turn ugly even violence was threatened by the parks guys if you were caught again.(illegal of course) But that's why something had to be done.

The rule had to be challenged for the benefit of all.
Who knew that the city council would want to ban a hobby without so much as even a meeting with the hobbyists.

Siegfried Schlagrule · Feb 10, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

Two solutions to your problems - reverse bribes or run for the city council or mayor job yourself. In a reverse bribe you ask for an appointment and go in with a couple thousand dollars in cash. State your interpretation of the law and what you think they should do. Show the cash and ask if they want you to donate it to the guy who runs against them next time? Put the cash in your pocket and leave. siegfried schlagrule

kimsdad · Feb 11, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

Siegfried Schlagrule said:
Two solutions to your problems - reverse bribes or run for the city council or mayor job yourself. In a reverse bribe you ask for an appointment and go in with a couple thousand dollars in cash. State your interpretation of the law and what you think they should do. Show the cash and ask if they want you to donate it to the guy who runs against them next time? Put the cash in your pocket and leave. siegfried schlagrule

Sounds like Illinois politics, except the cash winds up in the other guy's pocket and the one who brought it in gets a job... :tongue3:

Good points made here by all. I think there's a time to lie low, and a time to take a stand and fight. The hard part is knowing when and how to take an effective stand. Sounds like all this stemmed from one miserable person who found a receptive office for her complaints.

We have no lobby, and wield no more power than any other average citizen, so it's hard for us to be taken seriously. If we all lie low all the time, it makes it easier for others to run us over.

Lowbatts · Feb 11, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

kimsdad said:
Siegfried Schlagrule said:

Two solutions to your problems - reverse bribes or run for the city council or mayor job yourself. In a reverse bribe you ask for an appointment and go in with a couple thousand dollars in cash. State your interpretation of the law and what you think they should do. Show the cash and ask if they want you to donate it to the guy who runs against them next time? Put the cash in your pocket and leave. siegfried schlagrule

Click to expand...

Sounds like Illinois politics, except the cash winds up in the other guy's pocket and the one who brought it in gets a job...

Good points made here by all. I think there's a time to lie low, and a time to take a stand and fight. The hard part is knowing when and how to take an effective stand. Sounds like all this stemmed from one miserable person who found a receptive office for her complaints.

We have no lobby, and wield no more power than any other average citizen, so it's hard for us to be taken seriously. If we all lie low all the time, it makes it easier for others to run us over.

Neil for lobbyist!
It can't be too hard to find approving members of the city council, don't ned more than one or two to work on your side and at least get some positive action.

Of course that would take organization and perhaps even some national organization that has somoe notion of self worth.

txkickergirl · Feb 11, 2009

What you need is a community leader that packs some punch. Win them to your side and let them use their influence. The other ideal is irratate the heck out of them every time they have a meeting show up to speak, let them know you are not going away. Everytime they have a charity auction, fund raiser, or community event let your position be known, community activities, or festivals, rent a booth and pass out info. Make sure to let them know you wouldn't have as much free time to bug them as you do if you could metal detect parks.

trog · Feb 12, 2009

Re: I Can Not Believe This!!!

Hola
If you don't fight bans this is what happens. Here in Andalucia (Spain) metal detecting is totally outlawed. I risk a criminal conviction and my gear being seized every time I go out. One MD forum will not even show photos of finds or even discuss finds in case the law descends on from high so how crap is that. Remember fight now or lose out later.
Trog